New House help with exterior placements

[Infinion]

Bought a house. Years of cloud based cheap camera solutions I could make work when renting. But now I'm planning for a proper PoE setup.

Wanted some opinions on exterior camera locations. I'm primarily concerned with detect and observe, less so ident, at least for right now.

Below is a drawing of the property. The house is to scale, but the property boundaries are not. There's a lake askew to the back of the house, diagonal property line on the left side there, about 100ft away from the garage. And the right side has a bunch of trees mostly, but is at least 150ft away. Lots of wildlife we'd like to take a look at on occasion, but the primary goal is securing the house. Road is in the front of the house. Windows are marked in yellow. Doors are in red, including the garage door. Note that the 'Patios' are concrete pads, not a structure. There's a small front porch I'll probably just cover with a doorbell cam. Covering every bit of the property isn't required, but would like to cover all the doors, most of the windows, and ideally overview of surrounding and road/driveway.

Expecting 2.8mm 5442s or similar, but open to suggestions. I need to pay attention to the night lighting situation a little more, but the color4k might work for me too. They'll all go under the soffits, which are not particularly high, especially on the garage side, maybe 10ft over there. 15+ft on the other side.

I'm immediately tempted to put one at the outside corner of the garage, facing the road and drive. But I'm concerned it will be too close to focus, and the soffit is really low here, so subjects walking near the garage door will be very close to the camera. Thoughts? Next thought is on the right wing of the house, either the corner, or mid-wall, facing towards the driveway, which would also pick up the walkway to the front door well. There's a pretty sizable tree in the front though, that blocks much of the driveway view for this location.

Haven't figured out what to do on the back yet. I think a cam on the back corner of the garage could see the patio door that's on the small jut out 'Family room', and would cover that back walkway. And a cam in the corner of that room, facing back towards the house, could see the big window and other patio door. Not sure if the angles will work here. Then outward facing toward the lake, if I want those, can go nearly anywhere along the back.

Where would you locate?

 

[actran]

@Infinion Dahua 5442 is probably the best all-around choice at the moment, Color4K are good too if you run color all the time and have some lighting.

If you are ready to buy, there is a sale now: EmpireTech 2023 Autumn Sales Sep.18th-24th

You don't necessarily need to buy everything, just a few to get started if you're still not sure.

These Dahaus should have AI person detection so almost 0 false alarms.

 

[The Automation Guy]

Absolutely put one (or more) on the garage looking at the driveway/road. I assure you they will not be "too close".

After that it really just depends on what your goals are. Since this is not a "new construction" situation, you can install cameras as you see the need. Many people are going to want 1-2 cameras at the front door. One that shows the people standing at the door and another one that is oriented to see any packages that might be left. After that you might want to start covering the doorways into your house, or an interior view of the garage, or a more general view of the backyard and lake. There is no "right or wrong" answer.

 

[samplenhold]

I'm primarily concerned with detect and observe, less so ident,

In that case, get the cheapest cams you can find. Anything can detect and observe. When you have someone get into your space and you do not get a decent face shot to give to LE because you were not concerned with ident, you will be kicking yourself.

Placing cams at 10-15' soffits are only going to be good for overviews unless you get FOV set at distance, see diagram below.

But I'm concerned it will be too close to focus, and the soffit is really low here, so subjects walking near the garage door will be very close to the camera.

That is a good thing.

Expecting 2.8mm 5442s or similar, but open to suggestions

The 2.8mm cams are really for overviews. Don't get me wrong, I like and have a few for overviews. These work well to tell you where someone came from and where they went.

Get a 5442 varifocal turret or bullet. Set it up in a test rig and walk it day and night. Check out the WIKI.


See these threads below. Each one illustrates camera placement and other options/thoughts behind design decisions.

Why I like Continuous Recording (aka 24/7)

So a guy came to the door yesterday, and while my wife did not open the door, it kind of spooked her out. She said he seem suspicious saying he found a driver's license on the lawn and wanted to know if it belonged to her. So when I got back from the range, I checked out the cams. This is one...

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Why I Like Redundant Views/Multiple Cam Views

A lot of newbies ask for help with their camera setups and most think that they can get by with a single cam to cover quite a bit of area. While that is possible if all you are interested in is a wide-angle overview, it usually will not give you a great chance of getting a face shot good enough...

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Use of Overview and LPR Cams to Document Midnight Vehicle Distributing Offensive Flyers on Lawns

We were out of town and I was checking my cams remotely one morning and noticed one of the Deputies that regularly patrol my subdivision had been at my front door. She has come to me a few times requesting video as she knows I have fairly good coverage of the streets at my corner. I noticed that...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[Infinion]

In that case, get the cheapest cams you can find. Anything can detect and observe. When you have someone get into your space and you do not get a decent face shot to give to LE because you were not concerned with ident, you will be kicking yourself.

You've got a point. I'm generally agreeable to more coverage, more cams, and more money if necessary. Even the wife is on board! I'm sure I'll end up with more cams than I think - I currently have 6 wide angles covering an 800 sq ft apartment. I'm not terribly concerned with every detail, but yeah, the day I need it will be the day I wish I'd been more concerned about it, huh?

Placing cams at 10-15' soffits are only going to be good for overviews unless you get FOV set at distance, see diagram below.

They're pretty low, so I think it'll be a decent shot. It's literally the only location I have though unless I mount poles (a pain, and wife won't approve), or in the trees (a real pain).

The 2.8mm cams are really for overviews. Don't get me wrong, I like and have a few for overviews. These work well to tell you where someone came from and where they went.

Get a 5442 varifocal turret or bullet. Set it up in a test rig and walk it day and night. Check out the WIKI.

I've come from a world of preferring relatively wide angle cams, but I'm covering a different beast now. I did consider a varifocal, if nothing else, to see what focal distance I should be getting. Will probably get one and do some testing with it.

I've been of the opinion that a cam like, say, a 5442, isn't going to do particularly well in a small, up close space. For example, my front entry is a box that is 6ft wide, 5 feet deep and maybe 7ft tall. Something like a 5442 will perform here? I mean, I know I'd get a decent view of the street and the neighbors house, but right up close? That's my main concern with the corner of the garage - it'll be right up on top of people, really close. Maybe not a concern, I'll test it.

Appreciate the insight and links!

 

[wittaj]

I've come from a world of preferring relatively wide angle cams, but I'm covering a different beast now. I did consider a varifocal, if nothing else, to see what focal distance I should be getting. Will probably get one and do some testing with it.

I've been of the opinion that a cam like, say, a 5442, isn't going to do particularly well in a small, up close space. For example, my front entry is a box that is 6ft wide, 5 feet deep and maybe 7ft tall. Something like a 5442 will perform here? I mean, I know I'd get a decent view of the street and the neighbors house, but right up close? That's my main concern with the corner of the garage - it'll be right up on top of people, really close. Maybe not a concern, I'll test it.

Appreciate the insight and links!

A newbie loves the wide angle "I can see the whole neighborhood" of the 2.8mm fixed wide angle lens. I LOVED IT WHEN I PUT IT UP. I could see everything that would be blocked looking out the windows.

It is easy to get lured in to thinking the wide angle "see the whole neighborhood" camera is the bomb because you are watching it and you see a neighbor go by and you are like "Look at that I can tell that is Heather out walking." and "Yeah I can tell our neighbor 4 down just passed by". Or you watch back the video of you walking around and are like "yeah I can tell that is me".

Little do we realize how much WE can identify a known person just by hair style, clothing, walking pace, gait, etc.

Then one day the door checker comes by. Total stranger. Totally useless video other than what time the door checking happened.

Then you realize that this wide-angle see the whole neighborhood comes at a cost and that cost is not being able to IDENTIFY who did it. Even a great camera like the 5442 in the 2.8mm wide angle cameras is great overview cameras or to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet of the camera like your front entry "box" but at 40 feet out and further seeing your street and your neighbors house you will need a different camera.

Keep in mind any camera labeled as Full Color or ColorVu type camera needs light - all cameras need light. So if you don't have enough white light or are not willing to use the built-in white LEDs, then make sure to get a camera with infrared capability because Full Color type cameras cannot see infrared.

Take a look at this thread, which represents the most commonly recommended cameras based on distance to IDENTIFY and provide the overall best value in terms of price and performance day and night:

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

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[Infinion]

It is easy to get lured in to thinking the wide angle "see the whole neighborhood" camera is the bomb

Keep in mind any camera labeled as Full Color or ColorVu type camera needs light - all cameras need light.

Thank you!! I'll probably get a good varifocal, likely a 5442, and do tests at different locations to see what I need and what works best. Honestly, I just don't know yet. But I love to tinker and spend more than I should, so this will be fun. I do question if I need to be able to identify at 100ft, or only if someone comes up near the house.

The lighting is a question mark too. We're near town, but there are no street lights nearby. It seems the neighbors prefer less light pollution than more, so it's pretty dark. Which I like. But I also love color night shots, and those 1/1.2" sensors are pretty darn effective. White lighting is going to be a no go for me. I haven't even moved in yet and the neighbor is already complaining about a tiny motion light at the front which isn't even facing her house. We might have soft landscaping lights eventually, but not this year.

Light capture...I understand. One of the many things I do at my day job is design high speed cameras. We're basically hoping a couple photons will fall on each photo site by the time the shutter closes.

 

[wittaj]

Yeah in that case you will want to go with cameras that have infrared capabilities like the 5442 series.

And then use one of the full color cameras not as a camera to identify, but strictly as overview where you simply allow the camera to be on default/auto shutter that is way too slow to freeze frame, but would allow you to capture the color of the perp, clothing color, car color, etc. And then with some soft landscaping lighting, you might get enough light to actually be able to speed the shutter up a bit.

You will only question about needing to be able to identify at 100 feet after something happens and you are disgusted that the best the 2.8mm camera captured was a blob at 3:28am!

Even if they didn't touch your car or property, you would want the police to have enough info to go on to hopefully capture them because otherwise they will be back and maybe your house is hit the next time.

My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his four 2.8mm fixed lens 4k cams he bought at the big box store to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 6 feet away. All he could tell the police was what time his car was ransacked.

Meanwhile, even though they skipped my car, my 5231-Z12E 2MP varifocal optically zoomed in to the street at 80 feet provided the money shot to the police to get my neighbors all their stuff back.

Nobody else had video that could provide anything useful, other than what time this motion blur ghost was at their car.

Or you experience what many of us have. Perps go thru and you can kinda make out the car, but nobody got the plates and the plates would have been nice.

So then you want to set up a camera that can capture plates!

Keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. It is as much an art as it is a science. You will need two cameras if you want to capture more than plates. For LPR we need to OPTICALLY zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot.

 

[Infinion]

So then you want to set up a camera that can capture plates!

Well crap. Now I need an license plate reader!! Two actually, since we only have rear plates in my state, so need both directions.

There's a place or two on the house that maybe could make use of a PTZ to cover a large sweeping area and still be able to get tight shots up the road or at the neighbors house, etc. They're a little spendy, but might work nice. What should I worry about with these?

 

[Parley]

You will need two LPR cameras in your situation.

 

[wittaj]

A PTZ is great but if that is your only camera coverage of an area, it will be looking left and someone would come from the right.

But in a well established fixed camera system, it can be a great compliment because you will use the fixed cams as spotter cams to direct the PTZ where to look and then start tracking.

I have several of them LOL.

Using Spotter Cameras to direct a PTZ where to look in an NVR or Blue Iris and setting a spotter cam as a priority in Blue Iris

We get this question from time to time, so I thought with the recent addition to BI, it made sense to have a thread we can point to. Previously in BI, if you had more than one spotter cam, you could not make one a priority, so if spotter cam #1 triggered the PTZ and it starts tracking and...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[Infinion]

because you will use the fixed cams as spotter cams to direct the PTZ where to look and then start tracking.

Oh wow. Did not know this was a thing within my grasp. So cool. I need it! I'll just hand over my money now...

 

[wittaj]

Yeah it is so cool and allows for so many more opportunities to get clean shots of what is going on. The tracking is incredible!

 

[Ri22o]

Below are some of my threads, if you want to take a look through them. They may help you determine which focal lengths and cameras would work better for your scenes. You can see the differences between 2.8mm, 3.6mm, and some of the varifocals at full zoom.

You will likely figure this out from reading the threads, but I came from a Lorex system with all 2.8mm cameras. I was happy at the time and could see everything around my house. Mainly, I could see my daughter playing outside, which was one of the original reasons I installed them. However, I got lucky and was able to catch a kid vandalizing cars in the neighborhood (he got my truck), but the footage was only helpful because the detective already had an idea of who it was. If I needed to ID someone solely on my footage alone, it wouldn't have worked. Since then I have replaced all of my cameras with various Loryta/Empiretech/Dahua models and gone from around 16 (mix of analog and POE) to 34 with plans to add a few ("few") more in a couple places. This includes typical installs, LPRs, a PTZ, and some dedicated spotters.

My ongoing "build" thread.

Looking for advice on my install locations.

After posting my thread on where/whether to install the 4K-X I realized I may need to adjust the locations of some of my cameras and with Andy's sale coming up I wanted to get some opinions so I can buy any new hardware I may need. A little about where I live: My street is lit primarily by...

ipcamtalk.com

What I have learned.

"I want 2.8mm cameras everywhere to see everything..." - This is why you need specific FOVs with purposeful focal lengths.

I have gained a lot of knowledge since I signed up and wanted to share my experience and examples of improvements and changes for others who are coming from a "I want 2.8mm cameras everywhere to see everything" system mentality. My ongoing "build/looking for advice" thread can be found here...

ipcamtalk.com

The importance of having the correct focal length and specific purpose for a camera.

Stranger Danger: Side-by-side captures of Ring/Arlo/Nest vs Better Cameras

This post is a combination of the Typical Ring/Arlo/Nest Captures thread and the Captures from Better Cameras thread. It's not too often we have side-by-side images of the crappy, consumer grade cameras with the same subject as better cameras that have been installed with a purpose. It...

ipcamtalk.com

And because you show interest in a PTZ, here is mine and how the spotter works for it to be called to another position for auto-tracking.

I have a SD4A425DB-HNY and like it, but it's a complement to my system. It is nice that it can follow or zoom in on someone, but I can't rely that it will be looking at the correct location when needed (happens all of the time). Get a good structure of fixed cams and then look into adding a PTZ. Keep in mind a PTZ can only auto-track what it can see. If you don't have a spotter to call it to a preset then it's not going to know something is there, this is why it is a complement and a good structured system is a must.

The -HNY has a very good form factor, but is on the wrong sensor, unfortunately. I am still trying to get good night captures with it.

More SD4A425DB-HNY captures from the 1st floor. This thing is a beast.

I wanted to share some videos of my SD4A425DB-HNY after moving it from the 2nd story soffit down to the 1st floor soffit. So far, I am far from disappointed. I know it does not have a lot of distance to work with to determine human and then track, but it seems to be figuring it out...

ipcamtalk.com

Video of how my spotter cam's IVS rules call my PTZ to auto-track.

With more people looking to get a PTZ and asking about it moving to a preset and auto-tracking I decided to put a video together. This shows how the PTZ goes from parked to a preset based on an IVS trigger from a spotter camera. From this preset the PTZ has its own IVS rules to tell it to...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[Infinion]

It is nice that it can follow or zoom in on someone, but I can't rely that it will be looking at the correct location when needed (happens all of the time). Get a good structure of fixed cams and then look into adding a PTZ. Keep in mind a PTZ can only auto-track what it can see. If you don't have a spotter to call it to a preset then it's not going to know something is there, this is why it is a complement and a good structured system is a must.

Thanks for the info. Once I get basic infrastructure in, I plan to get a varifocal and do some testing with that at various locations. I've got a bunch of other stuff on my hit list though, so this will take me some time. It's a priority to get something at least basic up and running though. We won't even be living there full time just yet.

On PTZ tracking. I get the spotter thing, and will plan for that. But will PTZ not 'scan' a defined area, or different presets on a schedule, something like that? This seems a trivial thing to do. Sure, I know it'll be pointed South and someone enters the property from the North, but it'll scan over that way eventually, yes? And yeah, maybe it's too late... I'm not intending to rely on them, but there are some areas where I think overview coverage would be nice, the zoom would be fantastic since it's some 400+ft to my neighbors garage door, for example, and on some corners, the PTZ could cover

 

[Ri22o]

Thanks for the info. Once I get basic infrastructure in, I plan to get a varifocal and do some testing with that at various locations. I've got a bunch of other stuff on my hit list though, so this will take me some time. It's a priority to get something at least basic up and running though. We won't even be living there full time just yet.

On PTZ tracking. I get the spotter thing, and will plan for that. But will PTZ not 'scan' a defined area, or different presets on a schedule, something like that? This seems a trivial thing to do. Sure, I know it'll be pointed South and someone enters the property from the North, but it'll scan over that way eventually, yes? And yeah, maybe it's too late... I'm not intending to rely on them, but there are some areas where I think overview coverage would be nice, the zoom would be fantastic since it's some 400+ft to my neighbors garage door, for example, and on some corners, the PTZ could cover

I have not experienced this, but only read comments on here, but my understanding is the PTZ can only do so many "trips" before it is lifed out. At this point, it will become a fixed cam.

You can, possibly, program it to move from preset to preset instead of constant panning. Or park at one preset during the day and then schedule to move to another and park there for the evening for night duty.

 

[Infinion]

but my understanding is the PTZ can only do so many "trips" before it is lifed out

Oh, good point. I hadn't really considered the duty cycle on the motors. Probably is fine for a while but over years, yeah, maybe not so great. And they're sort of expensive so wouldn't want to use them up too much.

 

[Ri22o]

Oh, good point. I hadn't really considered the duty cycle on the motors. Probably is fine for a while but over years, yeah, maybe not so great. And they're sort of expensive so wouldn't want to use them up too much.

I don't know if this is a mechanical or software limitation. I am sure others will chime in.

 

[wittaj]

For auto tracking to work, you have to define a preset field of view and draw the parameters on that view that need to be tripped in order for it to track the object that tripped the tripwire or entered the intrusion box.

So if a PTZ is scanning the perimeter, when the camera is not sitting on a pre-established preset it doesn't have defined rules to follow on what to start tracking.

Now you can set it up to scan between established presets, but that still would miss the person coming from the other direction. After it stops at each preset, it needs to stop, focus, and establish the parameters to trigger on. While that may only be a second or so, if the perps see or here or know there is a scanning PTZ, they can avoid it.

And as pointed out, even though these are expensive to us, they are not military or high-end commercial grade cameras, so a software limitation is put in to only allow X number of cycles because it will quit tracking so that it saves the internals.

Someone came here a couple years ago and had it on a continuous tour of stopping at each preset for like 7 seconds and got the warning notice that tracking was going to get shut down shortly in under 2 years of operation.

It just doesn't make sense to have it on a tour scan of the presets. Between the extra use on the camera and the ability to foil and detect being caught on it due to the limitations, spotter cams is a much better approach as it will only put the PTZ motion into action when there is actually motion to be followed. So when nothing is happening, the PTZ is essentially parked into a "fixed cam" position able to provide an additional set of eyes over a field of view.

 

[Infinion]

so a software limitation is put in to only allow X number of cycles because it will quit tracking so that it saves the internals.

Wut? Really? How does stopping tracking save the internal tracking mechanisms...that are now locked inoperable anyway? It writes this condition to protected memory space somewhere, presumably, so that a factory reset doesn't restore usability? I design electronics for a living and don't do stupid crap like that. Good way to royally piss off your customers.