Newb+fire hose = drowning - suggestions on zooms and overall placement?

[FrankHouse]

Hi all,

Another noob to the forum... There is so much info here that I can't digest all of it.. Great problem to have, but I could use some help understanding it all

I've been trying to read through the various wiki's/sticky's on beginner setups as well as the VPN primer, but I'm looking for some specific suggestions on camera selection and setup. I'll worry about getting them all on a VLAN behind a VPN once it's all working. lol

I bought a Lorex bundle that included a 16-channel NVR with 8 turret cameras from the Lorex website for about $850 during Black Friday. Also got a doorbell (B451AJD-E) and 2 floodlight cameras (V261LCD-E).

I'm considering adding a couple of zoom cameras to keep an eye on the street/approaches to the house, but none of Lorex' current varifocal offerings are listed as compatible with my NVR (N863A63B). I've learned here that Lorex cameras are essentially Dahua OEM so could there be a good Dahua camera with a longer focal length that would work with my Lorex NVR?

The main priority for the setup is to be able to actually identify people if anything bad happens near my house. Ideally day or night. I only plan on using cameras outside the house. I got the 2 floodlight cameras for more coverage and in hopes that they would provide enough light when triggered to help the other cameras gather enough details. Planning on placing one above the garage and the other centered at the back of the house. Each of the cameras also have a built-in light and I was hoping that would help with the image quality at night. I'm planning on having the whole thing professionally installed but want to gather all of the equipment first.

Also, I could use some help with camera placement. My house is has a two car garage and sits on 1/5 acre, so it's not a large area. It's a new-construction neighborhood, so it doesn't show up on Google Satellite view, but I used a similar house as an example in IPVM. I could only place 4 cameras in the picture, but the left side of the house would be a mirror image of the right side. Shortened the range for readability.


Is this the right approach to placement? Still have 2 more wide angle cameras from the kit available (maybe one for inside the garage?). If I could add a couple of zoom cameras to my setup, where should I place them and what should they be aimed/centered at?

Any advice/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Just drowning in info from all the resources on the forum and need some way to digest it all.

Thanks,
Frank

 

[Old Timer]

Welcome, yes one of the biggest things is to read what's here and how to decide where to put cameras and what cameras where.
We recommend you pickup a 2x4" and 5 gallon bucket you can fill with sand or dirt. You can screw a zoom type of camera to the 2x4 and
move it around the house to see where it covers, and ask someone to walk/run around outside in front of the cameras to see
how good a picture you get. Hint, still shots are easy, moving shots are hard and takes good cameras.
You will end up with cameras that have different lenses like 3.6, 6 or 12mm just to get the picture correct.

 

[FrankHouse]

Welcome, yes one of the biggest things is to read what's here and how to decide where to put cameras and what cameras where.
We recommend you pickup a 2x4" and 5 gallon bucket you can fill with sand or dirt. You can screw a zoom type of camera to the 2x4 and
move it around the house to see where it covers, and ask someone to walk/run around outside in front of the cameras to see
how good a picture you get. Hint, still shots are easy, moving shots are hard and takes good cameras.
You will end up with cameras that have different lenses like 3.6, 6 or 12mm just to get the picture correct.

Thanks. Yes, I'm thinking something in the 12mm or higher range. But I'm not sure which Dahua camera in that range would work with my NVR. Hopefully they're all compatible??

 

[wittaj]

Lorex is Dahua OEM, so it should work. Many people here have used Dahua OEM cams with Lorex just fine.

The biggest issue is the bandwidth capacity of the NVR. Not all NVRs are created equal.

Lorex is getting sneaky of hiding their specs recently. A quick search doesn't show all the specs.

Many of the Lorex units are rated at 88Mbps bandwidth, which isn't a lot.

My neighbor has a Lorex NVR and added a few Dahua OEM cameras sold by a member here @EMPIRETECANDY and the NVR limited the bitrate per camera to 4192 bitrate so that it could handle all 8 of his cameras. The Dahua 5442 series 4MP cams typically need 8192 bitrate for a decent picture.

So yes, the cameras are compatible with his NVR, but they had to be throttled back due to limitations of the NVR.

Amazon.com

 

[mat200]

Hi all,

Another noob to the forum... There is so much info here that I can't digest all of it.. Great problem to have, but I could use some help understanding it all

I've been trying to read through the various wiki's/sticky's on beginner setups as well as the VPN primer, but I'm looking for some specific suggestions on camera selection and setup. I'll worry about getting them all on a VLAN behind a VPN once it's all working. lol

I bought a Lorex bundle that included a 16-channel NVR with 8 turret cameras from the Lorex website for about $850 during Black Friday. Also got a doorbell (B451AJD-E) and 2 floodlight cameras (V261LCD-E).

I'm considering adding a couple of zoom cameras to keep an eye on the street/approaches to the house, but none of Lorex' current varifocal offerings are listed as compatible with my NVR (N863A63B). I've learned here that Lorex cameras are essentially Dahua OEM so could there be a good Dahua camera with a longer focal length that would work with my Lorex NVR?

The main priority for the setup is to be able to actually identify people if anything bad happens near my house. Ideally day or night. I only plan on using cameras outside the house. I got the 2 floodlight cameras for more coverage and in hopes that they would provide enough light when triggered to help the other cameras gather enough details. Planning on placing one above the garage and the other centered at the back of the house. Each of the cameras also have a built-in light and I was hoping that would help with the image quality at night. I'm planning on having the whole thing professionally installed but want to gather all of the equipment first.

Also, I could use some help with camera placement. My house is has a two car garage and sits on 1/5 acre, so it's not a large area. It's a new-construction neighborhood, so it doesn't show up on Google Satellite view, but I used a similar house as an example in IPVM. I could only place 4 cameras in the picture, but the left side of the house would be a mirror image of the right side. Shortened the range for readability.
View attachment 116183

Is this the right approach to placement? Still have 2 more wide angle cameras from the kit available (maybe one for inside the garage?). If I could add a couple of zoom cameras to my setup, where should I place them and what should they be aimed/centered at?

Any advice/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Just drowning in info from all the resources on the forum and need some way to digest it all.

Thanks,
Frank

Hi @FrankHouse

"I bought a Lorex bundle that included a 16-channel NVR with 8 turret cameras from the Lorex website for about $850 during Black Friday. "

yes, that lorex kit looks like a Dahua OEM kit, imho should work well with the Dahua OEM cameras that many of us like.

You may need to sync user / password, ip, port info .. should not be to much work if you are familiar with IP routers and IP addressing.

iirc the cameras Lorex is selling recently have smaller sensors - so I would definitely augment that kit with at least a couple of decent larger sensor cameras to cover the most critical low light areas for your system.

 

[FrankHouse]

Many of the Lorex units are rated at 88Mbps bandwidth, which isn't a lot.

Amazon.com

Thanks wittaj. Good to know. Looks like I got lucky. From the spec sheet that mat200 posted, it seems this particular NVR has a network bandwidth of 200Mbps. Not planning on setting up all 16 channels, so hopefully that's fast enough.

yes, that lorex kit looks like a Dahua OEM kit, imho should work well with the Dahua OEM cameras that many of us like.

You may need to sync user / password, ip, port info .. should not be to much work if you are familiar with IP routers and IP addressing.

iirc the cameras Lorex is selling recently have smaller sensors - so I would definitely augment that kit with at least a couple of decent larger sensor cameras to cover the most critical low light areas for your system.

Hi mat200. Thank you so much for the spec sheets! I hadn't been able to find those before. Maybe my Google-fu is not strong enough, or Lorex makes them less than obvious to find.

I'm somewhat familiar with IP addressing. I can set up bridge routers and such, but will probably need to come back for help in that area once it's installed.

I don't have all the brands straight yet. Which ones are the Dahua OEM's that are compatible with a Lorex system? Are they EmpireTech or Loryta? What size sensors should I be looking for to augment the kit? Any suggestions on which camera would work well for zoomed in views of the streets/sidewalks approaching the house to maybe pick up problems before they get in range of the more wide angle cameras? Maybe a larger sensor with a lower MP (larger pixels for night views) zoom...

 

[wittaj]

Dahua OEM includes, but is not limited to Q-See, Amcrest, Lorex, @EMPIRETECANDY cameras called Empiretech and Loryta. I added a chart at the bottom, but the ones I mentioned are the most common ones. EmpireTechandy has great customer service and the best deals.

You need to identify the areas you want to cover and pick a camera designed to cover that distance. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera. DO NOT CHASE MP!!!

It is why we recommend to purchase one good varifocal and test it at all the proposed locations day and night to figure out the correct focal lengths and cams.

A few other tips....It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k (8MP) cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL). Starlight, ColorVu, Full Color, etc. are simply marketing terms, so don't be sold on those names.

To identify someone with the wide-angle 2.8mm lens that most people opt for, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera, but realistically within 10 feet after you dial it in to your settings.

Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well. These cameras meet all your requirements.

• 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
• 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
• 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
• 49225 PTZ - great auto-track PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.

You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A wide angle 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.

So you will need to identify the distance the camera would be from the activities you want to IDENTIFY on and purchase the correct camera for that distance as an optical zoom.

If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact.

 

[mat200]

Thanks wittaj. Good to know. Looks like I got lucky. From the spec sheet that mat200 posted, it seems this particular NVR has a network bandwidth of 200Mbps. Not planning on setting up all 16 channels, so hopefully that's fast enough.


Hi mat200. Thank you so much for the spec sheets! I hadn't been able to find those before. Maybe my Google-fu is not strong enough, or Lorex makes them less than obvious to find.

I'm somewhat familiar with IP addressing. I can set up bridge routers and such, but will probably need to come back for help in that area once it's installed.

I don't have all the brands straight yet. Which ones are the Dahua OEM's that are compatible with a Lorex system? Are they EmpireTech or Loryta? What size sensors should I be looking for to augment the kit? Any suggestions on which camera would work well for zoomed in views of the streets/sidewalks approaching the house to maybe pick up problems before they get in range of the more wide angle cameras? Maybe a larger sensor with a lower MP (larger pixels for night views) zoom...

Hi @FrankHouse

We have 2 vendors here which are listed in the vendor section that sell Dahua OEM cameras which should work .. Amcrest and Andy / EmpireTecAndy .. ( see @wittaj note above )

Do look at the various cameras members have reviewed to get a better idea of options.

Also look for SouthernYankee's cheat sheet .. as well other members on cameras they suggest and recommend.

 

[FrankHouse]

Dahua OEM includes, but is not limited to Q-See, Amcrest, Lorex, @EMPIRETECANDY cameras called Empiretech and Loryta. I added a chart at the bottom, but the ones I mentioned are the most common ones. EmpireTechandy has great customer service and the best deals.

You need to identify the areas you want to cover and pick a camera designed to cover that distance. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera. DO NOT CHASE MP!!!

It is why we recommend to purchase one good varifocal and test it at all the proposed locations day and night to figure out the correct focal lengths and cams.

Thanks for the chart. That's super helpful. Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't think of a simple way to test all of the camera locations without running wire to everything, and the location is pretty much set at that point.. Do you mean to do all of the cable runs first and then think about what camera you want at each spot?

I understand about not chasing MP and that sensor size is more important than raw MP. Photography is a hobby of mine, so there is a little overlap with security cameras in that they're both cameras but with vastly different sensor sizes and the added complication of autonomous recording 24/7. Still have a lot to learn.

I have Full Frame and APS-C photography equipment, so maybe I could use that and a ladder to test out different focal lengths at different spots? Though I only know the focal length conversions between m43, APS-C, and Full Frame sensors. Hadn't gone down to sub 1" sensors until now.

As a first pass on my installation, and since my kit comes with 8 4k cameras (1/2.8" sensors it seems), I was thinking of adding 2 4MP varifocal cameras for side walk and street views in front of my house. Maybe the 5442T-Z4E? Though if you want to see people or cars as they approach your house, and you want to read license plates as well, it seems like you need two separate cameras for that, but they'd really both be in the same location. I think the wife could veto that as it all just starts to look bad aesthetically.. Maybe two Z4e's pointed up and down the street would be a good compromise and not be able to read plates for now.

Hi @FrankHouse
We have 2 vendors here which are listed in the vendor section that sell Dahua OEM cameras which should work .. Amcrest and Andy / EmpireTecAndy .. ( see @wittaj note above )

Do look at the various cameras members have reviewed to get a better idea of options.

Also look for SouthernYankee's cheat sheet .. as well other members on cameras they suggest and recommend.

Thanks mat200. That cheat sheet, is that the Cliff Notes I've seen posted or are you referring to something else? - IP Cam Talk Cliff Notes

 

[wittaj]

What you should do is decide where you want cameras and then just take a long cable and run it through a window, door, garage door, etc. to the proposed location to test over a 24 hour period (need day and night) to determine the optimal place for the cameras.

Now we recognize most do it the other way and run the cables and then try to make a camera work. That is how we see all the threads with a great camera installed in the wrong location and the results are poor. The 4K/X for example is a great camera. Incredible camera. Someone installed it on the 2nd story and is complaining the camera sucks and they cannot IDENTIFY people. Well of course not - the camera is 20 feet up and the entire IDENTIFY distance in that DORI chart is lost in the vertical direction. And then all they saw was the tops of heads because someone standing 5 feet horizontal from the camera was also 15 feet below the camera.

That DORI chart comes with the assumption that someone has installed the cameras at the 4-7 foot high range.

You have to forget what you know about DSLR and high end photography cameras LOL.

You will find a BIG difference between your photography equipment and these cameras. Trying to match focal lengths would be tough because it may be crystal clear on high end DSLR and not be clear with these types of cameras. The sensors and optics just are not at the same level.

Remember these are surveillance cameras, not DSLR cameras, so you have to check your expectations. You can probably see individual hairs with photography equipment and you won't with these for example.

So now you added you want to capture plates...

Regarding a camera for plates (LPR) - keep in mind that this is a camera dedicated to plates and not an overview camera also. It is as much an art as it is a science. You will need two cameras. For LPR we need to zoom in tight to make the plate as large as possible. For most of us, all you see is the not much more than a vehicle in the entire frame. Now maybe in the right location during the day it might be able to see some other things, but not at night.

At night, we have to run a very fast shutter speed (1/2,000) and in B/W with IR and the image will be black. All you will see are head/tail lights and the plate. Some people can get away with color if they have enough street lights, but most of us cannot. Here is a representative sample of plates I get at night of vehicles traveling about 45MPH at 175 feet from my 2MP camera (that is all that is needed for plates):



Most of us go with the 5241E-Z12E for this because it has the best focal length. If your distance from plate to camera is less than 60 feet, you could go with the 5442-Z4E and if within 30 feet you could go with a cheaper 2MP varifocal. And many of us do have two cameras side-by-side - one for overview and one for LPR.

Amazon.com

 

[FrankHouse]

What you should do is decide where you want cameras and then just take a long cable and run it through a window, door, garage door, etc. to the proposed location to test over a 24 hour period (need day and night) to determine the optimal place for the cameras.

Now we recognize most do it the other way and run the cables and then try to make a camera work. That is how we see all the threads with a great camera installed in the wrong location and the results are poor. The 4K/X for example is a great camera. Incredible camera. Someone installed it on the 2nd story and is complaining the camera sucks and they cannot IDENTIFY people. Well of course not - the camera is 20 feet up and the entire IDENTIFY distance in that DORI chart is lost in the vertical direction. And then all they saw was the tops of heads because someone standing 5 feet horizontal from the camera was also 15 feet below the camera.

That DORI chart comes with the assumption that someone has installed the cameras at the 4-7 foot high range.

You have to forget what you know about DSLR and high end photography cameras LOL.

You will find a BIG difference between your photography equipment and these cameras. Trying to match focal lengths would be tough because it may be crystal clear on high end DSLR and not be clear with these types of cameras. The sensors and optics just are not at the same level.

Thanks wittaj. I will see if I can do some tests with a varifocal camera. Totally agree that photography gear is galaxies away from security camera optics, but even if the image quality is vastly different, perhaps using a photo camera as a way to test different fields of view would simplify things in some cases. But I can see why it's recommended to test with a varifocal camera since that's much closer to what the final solution would be.

Pretty funny about someone wanting to identify a face with a camera 20 feet in the air! But I see your point about testing things out before the final install. Things may look great in a tool like IPVM but not actually work in real life.

The plate reader idea was a passing moment... hehehe. I think I'll leave that alone for a while. Perhaps go back and add that later if it really becomes necessary. I can see how high shutter speeds are needed for fast moving cars. Cool trick using IR for the actual image since that shutter speed would kill your available light at night.

Thanks for all the info. Trying to absorb as much as I can as quickly as possible