looney2ns
IPCT Contributor
Keep in mind, the only thing that matters is that you have the camera tuned so it records blur free motion.
Static scenes at night are easy.
Static scenes at night are easy.
No image improvement, 1080p camera vs 4k
- Thread starter 8trek
- Start date
I will take some snapshots tonight and include the previous cameras for reference. If I read what you're saying there shouldn't be that much difference between the 2.8 and 3.6?
You would be surprised how much different cameras can look when we perceive the light to be about the same.
But you will see some differences in what the camera sees as light based on focal length.
The only way to know for sure would be to set them side by side.
Not sure about you, but the 3.6mm has too long of a minimum-focus-distance for my door area (nearly 18ft). My camera-to-person is about 5 feet at the nearest, 15ft at the farthest. The 2.8mm can focus nearly 8 feet closer than the 3.6, at 10 vs 18 feet. The 3.6mm has everything out of focus (it can be internally adjusted to be near-focus only). This is one reason I had to go with 2.8mm, although to the sides it just picks up more wall and sky or roof. This is something you should check out - you may want to swap to a 2.8 to get proper focus.
I'd typically go longer focal length for most cameras, but when you need to ID at under 20 feet, then a wider lens will typically allow a better MFD. The f/1.0 lens on these cameras doesn't make for a great minimum focus value, if you want anything else in focus too.
I'll add that a larger sensor with similar optics will always resolve more detail. You can go wider and get similar resolved-detail compared to using a smaller sensor and more telephoto lens, more than just ISO benefits. The DORI values (if accurate) will also demonstrate this; what I'm getting at is that the "2.8mm" lens option will still resolve better than most other smaller-sensor cameras with "3.6-4mm" lenses.
The lens optics do matter as we crank resolutions, but all else being equal, larger image sensors will capture more detail. This is the biggest advantage I've seen in moving up sensor sizes in normal cameras (DSLR, mirrorless). Comparing a 24MP APS-C and 24MP full frame, where I find real tradeoffs begin to occur, the full frame will resolve more detail with similar lens quality and characteristics. Depth-of-field is also often too narrow on larger sensors (when using good, fast lenses), so you have to stop-down the lens, or stop down to get rid of vignetting (even on $2k prime lenses), losing the low-light advantage of the larger sensor. The true resolution of the capture is always there though, and full frame (or medium format) can provide for some beautiful architecture or landscape photography with all the resolution, whether at 16MP, or 50MP.
I love the 1/1.2" f/1.0 cameras - I have 9 of them, and a bunch of 1/1.8" sensor cameras in other areas, with only one smaller sensor remaining for license plates. They are excellent performance/value options today, including bright, low-blur or blur-free imagery at night depending on the scene and setup.
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I'm ready to post these images, would you prefer i start a new thread or post in this one?
TOP: Amcrest IP8M-2696EW-AI (4k, 2.8mm 1/2.8" cmos 108 deg horz view angle)
BOT: EmpireTech IPC-Color4k-x 3.6mm (4k, 3.6mm, 1/1.2" cmos 91 deg horz view angle)
In both cases light above front door on & around corner on left.
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TOP: Amcrest IP8M-2496EW-V2 (4k 2.8mm 1/2.7” cmos 105 deg horz view angle)
Backdoor light on although can’t tell, Landscape lights on as well.
BOT: EmpireTech IPC-Color4k-x 2.8mm (4k, 2.8mm, 1/1.2" cmos 112 deg horz view angle)
No lights on whatsoever, no idea where it’s getting light from.
Now for the question everyone will ask since we can make any camera look good at night with a static image....
Are you running default/auto settings on each camera or did you dial them in for your field of view?
Is the white LED on for the 4K/X camera?
Do you have any video clips or freeze frame images of objects in motion for each camera?
Are you running default/auto settings on each camera or did you dial them in for your field of view?
Is the white LED on for the 4K/X camera?
Do you have any video clips or freeze frame images of objects in motion for each camera?
The images were created using the snap feature inside BI while playing a video or while watching live. They were not altered with photoshop or anything.
Could you please send me an image of your config(s)? What does this accomplish? Thanks.
Auto/default will result in ghosting and blurring during motion as default favors bright static image over performance. You need a faster shutter to be able to get clean images of objects moving at night.
The settings are unique to each field of view and available light.
Surveillance cameras rarely do good on default auto settings like exposure/shutter at night. Any camera can be forced in color and look great for a static image, but motion is a blur.
In my opinion, shutter (exposure) and gain are the two most important parameters and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies. Match iframes to FPS. 15FPS is all that is usually needed.
Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.
But first, run H264, smart codec off, CBR, and 8192 bitrate to start, along with 15 FPS and 15 i-frame.
Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-4ms exposure and 0-30 gain (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared or white light.
Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night static image results in Casper blur and ghost during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?
In the daytime, if it is still too bright, then drop the 4ms down to 3ms then 2ms, etc. You have to play with it for your field of view.
Then at night, if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.
You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image.
You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.
But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.
Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.
After every setting adjustment, have someone walk around outside and see if you can freeze-frame to get a clean image. If not, keep changing until you do. Clean motion pictures are what we are after, not a clean static image.
Surveillance cameras rarely do good on default auto settings like exposure/shutter at night. Any camera can be forced in color and look great for a static image, but motion is a blur.
In my opinion, shutter (exposure) and gain are the two most important parameters and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies. Match iframes to FPS. 15FPS is all that is usually needed.
Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.
But first, run H264, smart codec off, CBR, and 8192 bitrate to start, along with 15 FPS and 15 i-frame.
Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-4ms exposure and 0-30 gain (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared or white light.
Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night static image results in Casper blur and ghost during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?
In the daytime, if it is still too bright, then drop the 4ms down to 3ms then 2ms, etc. You have to play with it for your field of view.
Then at night, if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.
You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image.
You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.
But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.
Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.
After every setting adjustment, have someone walk around outside and see if you can freeze-frame to get a clean image. If not, keep changing until you do. Clean motion pictures are what we are after, not a clean static image.
Thanks for all of this. I already had the cameras FPS and iframes set that way. One major question, all of these cameras I bought from Andy per your recommendation from what I can tell do not automatically go from day to night or viceversa... you have to set the time period which doesn't account for time of year which varies greatly from summer to winter. Is there a way to automate this from BI or am i missing something in the camera settings?
My Amcrest cameras have a setting within profile mngmt that says "Day/Night" presumably will auto change based on time of year or amount of light available.
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Most of us do this - you can either run the separate utility or "use" the PTZ commands in BI for a custom setting to change day night.
Dahua day/night switch utility - DahuaSunriseSunset
I wanted to use stronger noise reduction at night and weaker during the day, but Dahua seems to have made a mess of the profile management. On most cameras, there doesn't seem to be a way to have the camera switch automatically between Day and Night profiles when the camera changes between...
Geez Louise! That's a monster thread. Despite seeing the person who wrote the service saying he isn't using his own script anymore I went ahead and set it up anyway. Seems to be working so will see how it goes. If it works not sure why anyone would go the other route which seems like a lot of work to do something the cameras don't have built in and the script does. Besides, not sure I follow how PTZ settings can store different profiles cause I don't see that in the camera interface but I'm probably just missing something.Most of us do this - you can either run the separate utility or "use" the PTZ commands in BI for a custom setting to change day night.
Dahua day/night switch utility - DahuaSunriseSunset
I wanted to use stronger noise reduction at night and weaker during the day, but Dahua seems to have made a mess of the profile management. On most cameras, there doesn't seem to be a way to have the camera switch automatically between Day and Night profiles when the camera changes between...ipcamtalk.com
Yeah that thread is huge lol.
I still use the utility lol as like you that is faster than typing in all those commands in BI
The BI commands simply use the PTZ commands as that is the mechanism to talk and send API code to the cameras, so you won't see PTZ in fixed cameras userface. It could really be called API commands instead of PTZ commands - it is being used as a workaround.
I still use the utility lol as like you that is faster than typing in all those commands in BI
The BI commands simply use the PTZ commands as that is the mechanism to talk and send API code to the cameras, so you won't see PTZ in fixed cameras userface. It could really be called API commands instead of PTZ commands - it is being used as a workaround.
So i've bought both versions of the IPC-Color4k-x, using 3.6 above the front door and the 2.8 for the backyard. Getting ready to pull the trigger on one more to replace an old Swann bullet cam pointed at the driveway also covering some of the side and front yard. Above the driveway camera is the SD49225XA-HNR. Several cameras tell it to change PTZ when triggered. Due to the nature of the SD49225XA-HNR the field of view is very narrow compared to anything else I have. I've read and re-read your fantastic post on figuring out what's the right camera for the situation. I've gone so far as to held up the 2.8 to get an idea of what it would look like in the driveway before i placed it in the backyard. Even after all this I'm still not sure whether to go with the 3.6 or 2.8 for the driveway. From what i've gathered the biggest concern is what is the distance from the camera to the spot at which you'd like to be able to identify someone, in this case trying to break into my truck. Do I have that right? Also early someone in this thread posted about not being able to focus close up with a 3.6. Can you please just tell me what you'd do? I hate making decisions. 
More info: this new driveway camera will be placed where the existing Swann is now, about 9 feet above driveway.
More info: this new driveway camera will be placed where the existing Swann is now, about 9 feet above driveway.