No image improvement, 1080p camera vs 4k

[8trek]

I recently purchased a 4k monitor and when I replay a 4k camera recording I'm seeing no improvements on the 4k monitor vs a 1080p monitor. I'm running the 4k cameras at 4k and exporting video at the highest settings. If I zoom in on something with words on it, I see no difference between the 2 monitors. Tried this on 2 Amcrest ones as well as a Reolink. No change in main live streams either. Running all cameras 15fps and 15frame interval

Any ideas?

 

[wittaj]

Keep in mind digital zoom only works in the movies and TV. Even with 4K cameras, the sensors are just too small to be of any value for digital zooming.

It is why many people here say 4MP is the sweet spot for these types of cameras. In ideal settings and a lot of sunlight, you may get a little more detail from a 4K camera. And then with the "budget" cameras you mentioned that are not on the ideal MP/sensor ratio, it is going to be even less of an improvement over a 4MP.

Remember these are surveillance cameras, not DSLR cameras, so you have to check your expectations. For example, you can see individual hairs and skin pores with DSLR photography equipment, even if you digital zoom some, and you won't with these kinds of cameras. These are for a different use and different expectations.

• Sensor Size - a full frame DSLR sensor size is 864mm^2; whereas a 1/2.8" sensor popular on many cameras would be 20mm^2, so the "real" camera can collect over 40 times more light than a surveillance camera. And this doesn't even account for less light available for an 8MP versus 2MP for the same size sensor.
• Shutter Speed (Exposure) - Taking a picture with a "real" camera, you can slow the shutter down to 1/2s or longer for a nice clean picture of a person not moving. Perps rarely stand still and we need a shutter of at least 1/60s to minimize the blur.
• Aperture - With a "real" camera you focus on a specific part of the field of view, while a surveillance needs to focus on things in the foreground and background, which means the aperture is smaller, further compounding the light issue.
• Compression - A single 8MP image from a "real" camera could be upwards of 5MB of storage. In surveillance cameras, if you record at 15FPS, every second of video could be 75MB or more, which could equate to 6.5TB per day per camera. Obviously most are not going to have that kind of storage, so lossy compression algorithms are used to reduce storage and network bandwidth requirement, and that can add noise.
• Environment - a "real" camera is used mainly under ideal conditions, whereas a surveillance camera is going 24/7 in every type of element, so the design and size impacts its capabilities.

Take a look at this thread where someone came here all upset there was no real improvement between a 3MP and 4K camera...

8mp vs 3mp image comparison

hello, I have an 8mp 1/1.8" sensor PCI-T18F2S on the top and 3mp 1/3" sensor DS-2CD2132F-IS on the bottom. Both cameras are 2.8mm and the cereal box is at 15 feet in both cases. I would expect a much better image from the 8mp. What do you think? I'm sure you would like to have a lot more...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[mat200]

I recently purchased a 4k monitor and when I replay a 4k camera recording I'm seeing no improvements on the 4k monitor vs a 1080p monitor. I'm running the 4k cameras at 4k and exporting video at the highest settings. If I zoom in on something with words on it, I see no difference between the 2 monitors. Tried this on 2 Amcrest ones as well as a Reolink. No change in main live streams either. Running all cameras 15fps and 15frame interval

Any ideas?

Hi @8trek

Please see the DORI section of the cliff notes.

Calculate the ID distance of your cameras, and setup a test image at the ID distance for each camera and do a comparison and contrast.

Feel free to share here

also feel free to post more info on the cameras when you post any comparison pictures ..

furthermore, remember to post the images which were actually captured to the HDD storage .. not a screen shot of the monitor

 

[DsineR]

Keep in mind digital zoom only works in the movies and TV.

My favorite CSI & Blacklist quote, " Enhance, Enhance, Enhance".
Also ensure your device HDMI output feeding your monitor is set to 4K.

 

[looney2ns]

You need to be sure that your output device is capable of 4k output.
Saying you have the cameras set to 4k, means nothing if you don't have the correct bitrate set in the camera. If you have left the camera at factory defaults, you are not getting the best it is capable of. All cameras need to be properly tuned for their FOV.
How are you recording the 4k cams video?

 

[Parley]

The monitors on my 4 NVR's are either 1K or 2K. The monitor on my main computer is 4K. I can really see the difference in detail. As stated above make sure everything is in the 4K mode.

 

[8trek]

Keep in mind digital zoom only works in the movies and TV. Even with 4K cameras, the sensors are just too small to be of any value for digital zooming.

It is why many people here say 4MP is the sweet spot for these types of cameras. In ideal settings and a lot of sunlight, you may get a little more detail from a 4K camera.

Remember these are surveillance cameras, not DSLR cameras, so you have to check your expectations. For example, you can see individual hairs and skin pores with DSLR photography equipment, even if you digital zoom some, and you won't with these kinds of cameras. These are for a different use and different expectations.

• Sensor Size - a full frame DSLR sensor size is 864mm^2; whereas a 1/2.8" sensor popular on many cameras would be 20mm^2, so the "real" camera can collect over 40 times more light than a surveillance camera. And this doesn't even account for less light available for an 8MP versus 2MP for the same size sensor.
• Shutter Speed (Exposure) - Taking a picture with a "real" camera, you can slow the shutter down to 1/2s or longer for a nice clean picture of a person not moving. Perps rarely stand still and we need a shutter of at least 1/60s to minimize the blur.
• Aperture - With a "real" camera you focus on a specific part of the field of view, while a surveillance needs to focus on things in the foreground and background, which means the aperture is smaller, further compounding the light issue.
• Compression - A single 8MP image from a "real" camera could be upwards of 5MB of storage. In surveillance cameras, if you record at 15FPS, every second of video could be 75MB or more, which could equate to 6.5TB per day per camera. Obviously most are not going to have that kind of storage, so lossy compression algorithms are used to reduce storage and network bandwidth requirement, and that can add noise.
• Environment - a "real" camera is used mainly under ideal conditions, whereas a surveillance camera is going 24/7 in every type of element, so the design and size impacts its capabilities.

Take a look at this thread where someone came here all upset there was no real improvement between a 3MP and 4K camera...

8mp vs 3mp image comparison

hello, I have an 8mp 1/1.8" sensor PCI-T18F2S on the top and 3mp 1/3" sensor DS-2CD2132F-IS on the bottom. Both cameras are 2.8mm and the cereal box is at 15 feet in both cases. I would expect a much better image from the 8mp. What do you think? I'm sure you would like to have a lot more...

ipcamtalk.com

After your response (thank you) I spent most of the day educating myself on various camera specs besides rez, more notably the sensor size. I have read every word of all the various links given, also talked to a buddy of mine who installs high end cameras out in Santa Barbara. In any event taking your advice and ordered a couple cams from Andy's Amazon store. Will post comparison reviews once implemented. Ordered:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B099R9WG9M/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

&

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B081RJJQT4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks.

 

[wittaj]

After your response (thank you) I spent most of the day educating myself on various camera specs besides rez, more notably the sensor size. I have read every word of all the various links given, also talked to a buddy of mine who installs high end cameras out in Santa Barbara. In any event taking your advice and ordered a couple cams from Andy's Amazon store. Will post comparison reviews once implemented. Ordered:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B099R9WG9M/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

&

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B081RJJQT4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks.

Those are two great cameras.

I have them both.

I have a 4K/X not for the 8MP it provides but for its low light performance. It simply doesn't need much light to give an incredible night color image. It blows away any camera I previously had at that location in terms of low light performance. Sensor size make a huge difference.

You will be shocked at the difference between the 4K/X and the budget Reolink and Amcrests you mentioned that are not on ideal MP/sensor ratio. Won't even be a close comparison

The 49225 is an incredible deal - excellent autotracking at sub $400. In conjunction with using spotter cams to direct the 49225 where to start, it is an excellent addtion to a system.

For the 49225 - DO NOT UPDATE THE FIRMWARE - you will lose autotracking if you do. Dahua eliminated it from that series and Andy is the only one selling it with autotrack, but the stockpile is diminishing quickly.

I REPEAT - DO NOT UPDATE THE 49225 FIRMWARE

 

[8trek]

Those are two great cameras.

I have them both.

I have a 4K/X not for the 8MP it provides but for its low light performance. It simply doesn't need much light to give an incredible night color image. It blows away any camera I previously had at that location in terms of low light performance. Sensor size make a huge difference.

You will be shocked at the difference between the 4K/X and the budget Reolink and Amcrests you mentioned that are not on ideal MP/sensor ratio. Won't even be a close comparison

The 49225 is an incredible deal - excellent autotracking at sub $400. In conjunction with using spotter cams to direct the 49225 where to start, it is an excellent addtion to a system.

For the 49225 - DO NOT UPDATE THE FIRMWARE - you will lose autotracking if you do. Dahua eliminated it from that series and Andy is the only one selling it with autotrack, but the stockpile is diminishing quickly.

I REPEAT - DO NOT UPDATE THE 49225 FIRMWARE

What's the deal with the firmware? Can't understand why they would eliminate one of the main functions of the camera? Assuming the firmware it comes with is rock solid presume there would be no reason to every upgrade but just sayin.

I've currently got the Reolink rlc-823a which is pretty good during the day but as mentioned isn't very good at night which is the time of day bad people tend to do bad things.

as for the 49225 i ordered the ceiling mount at 40 bucks which seemed a bit high but want to get it as far out to the corner of the house as possible without exposing it to the elements... the first night i ran the reolink it was blurred the next day due to rain... hopefully this one is better at handling the rain... also read i'm going to have to run additional power to this thing (maybe) as the POE isn't real good or something... don't know kind of sketchy info online.

 

[wittaj]

So Dahua autotrack PTZs are upwards of $800 and above. They introduced the SD4 series at sub $400 and people quit buying the more expensive autotrack PTZs. How does a business solve that - remove the autotrack capabiltiies... It was strictly a business decision and had nothing to do with the actual performance of the PTZ.

So if you want autotracking, then you don't update the firmware. And by nature most of us do not upgrade the firmware of any camera if it is working for our needs. An upgrade usually breaks something we had working or doesn't add anything of value.

The additional power you need is POE+ instead of POE. I by habit only by POE+ gear because I never know when I might add a PTZ, plus the + gives extra power headroom. You must be reading reviews of amatures LOL. I have two of these PTZs they are so good and they run on the same POE+ switches as my other cameras.

 

[ChrisPDuck]

I recently purchased a 4k monitor and when I replay a 4k camera recording I'm seeing no improvements on the 4k monitor vs a 1080p monitor. I'm running the 4k cameras at 4k and exporting video at the highest settings. If I zoom in on something with words on it, I see no difference between the 2 monitors. Tried this on 2 Amcrest ones as well as a Reolink. No change in main live streams either. Running all cameras 15fps and 15frame interval

Any ideas?

I believe your answer is in the question

Your camera's were always 4k
You changed your screen from 1080p to 4k
When you zoom in you see no difference

You 'should' see a difference when not zoomed in (taking into account everything said above) as you're seeing 8M pixels rather than 2M pixels
However as soon as you zoom in you won't see a difference, lets say you zoom in 2x. You're then looking at a quarter of the image, which is 2M pixels (or 1080)
So now you are comparing a 1080 image on a 4k monitor with a 1080 image on a 1080 monitor, hence no difference

 

[8trek]

The additional power you need is POE+ instead of POE. I by habit only by POE+ gear because I never know when I might add a PTZ, plus the + gives extra power headroom. You must be reading reviews of amatures LOL. I have two of these PTZs they are so good and they run on the same POE+ switches as my other cameras.

Question: My poe switch has toggle switches that turn some ports to poe+, will it hurt anything if some of the regular poe cameras are plugged into ports pushing the extra power?

 

[wittaj]

Question: My poe switch has toggle switches that turn some ports to poe+, will it hurt anything if some of the regular poe cameras are plugged into ports pushing the extra power?

Not at all. Like I said I use POE+ switches but do not have POE+ on every port. The camera will only take as much power as it needs.

 

[8trek]

So as I said I took your advice and ordered the 1080p version of the Loryta tracker although for a few more buck could have gone with the 4MP version. Based on your recommended minimum requirements would indicate the sensor on the the 4mp version isn't big enough and therefore would get better quality at night with the less expensive one. I then started comparing both cameras using the calculator.ipvm.com site and from my perspective appears the 4MP looks better in all conditions. Maybe i'm missing something or it's going to take real world experience to see the difference. Anyway just thought i'd get your 2 cents on this. Thanks.

 

[The Automation Guy]

Question: My poe switch has toggle switches that turn some ports to poe+, will it hurt anything if some of the regular poe cameras are plugged into ports pushing the extra power?

Having POE/POE+ turned on should not damage any non-POE device or less powerful POE devices. At least not with any modern devices. If you put POE to something that is really old (ie the beginning of the internet) then perhaps it might get damaged, but I think the odds are pretty low even in those situations.

 

[wittaj]

So as I said I took your advice and ordered the 1080p version of the Loryta tracker although for a few more buck could have gone with the 4MP version. Based on your recommended minimum requirements would indicate the sensor on the the 4mp version isn't big enough and therefore would get better quality at night with the less expensive one. I then started comparing both cameras using the calculator.ipvm.com site and from my perspective appears the 4MP looks better in all conditions. Maybe i'm missing something or it's going to take real world experience to see the difference. Anyway just thought i'd get your 2 cents on this. Thanks.

The IPVM is a tool in the toolbox. After about 30 feet, I wouldn't trust the quality you see on the IPVM tool. Keep in mind they are using the same stock images regardless of camera or distance. So you can take a picture of a person at 15 feet with the tool and then use the zoom of the camera and get the same PPF/PPM number at 170 feet out and it will show the same quality. The sensors are not large enough for that to be possible.

I have the 49225 and the 4MP version 49425. The 2MP wins hands down, especially at night.

 

[The Automation Guy]

The IPVM is a tool in the toolbox. After about 30 feet, I wouldn't trust the quality you see on the IPVM tool. Keep in mind they are using the same stock images regardless of camera or distance. So you can take a picture of a person at 15 feet with the tool and then use the zoom of the camera and get the same PPF/PPM number at 170 feet out and it will show the same quality. The sensors are not large enough for that to be possible.

I have the 49225 and the 4MP version 49425. The 2MP wins hands down, especially at night.

Agreed.

The IPVM is a great tool to help determine which focal length/resolution combination might be appropriate for your field of view and DORI needs, but I don't think it is a good tool to determine the real life image quality of any camera being compared. As noted, the "stock" image is the same image across all camera models and they are using math to try and show the effects of focal length, resolution, etc at various subject distances. However it has no ability to compare the actual image performance of any of the cameras in its database.

 

[8trek]

Received the 2 cameras from Andy within just a few days. Took down the Amcrest 4k with 2.8 lens & installed the IPC-Color4K-X-3.6MM yesterday for the front door. Night time images are way better as expected. The camera is mounted about 9 feet high in a corner above the front door. I bought the 3.6mm instead of the 2.8mm thinking because anything greater than 90deg horizontal would be a waste. What i didn't consider was the 2.8mm has greater vertical as well which would bode well for seeing more of the person at the front door. I think what i've got is fine but curious to know based on what i've described do you think i made the right choice or should have went the 2.8? I'm probably going to wind up buying more of these things and could always move this 3.8mm somewhere else that makes more sense.

 

[8trek]

The IPVM is a tool in the toolbox. After about 30 feet, I wouldn't trust the quality you see on the IPVM tool. Keep in mind they are using the same stock images regardless of camera or distance. So you can take a picture of a person at 15 feet with the tool and then use the zoom of the camera and get the same PPF/PPM number at 170 feet out and it will show the same quality. The sensors are not large enough for that to be possible.

I have the 49225 and the 4MP version 49425. The 2MP wins hands down, especially at night.

Haven't installed the SD49225XA-HNR yet but have bench tested. From what i've gathered because this camera has "special" firmware that allows auto tracking, the standard method for using this feature which is to simply tell the camera to auto track anything it sees via the auto track smart plan icon which isn't available in these cameras, you must create a smart plan using the light bulb icon followed with either trip wires or intrusion rules such that when an object trips or intrudes the camera will then auto track. Do i have that right and if so if i simply want the camera to act like the more expensive ones with auto tracking still supported in later firmware whereas it tracks any person (for example) it sees within view, if i simply draw an intrusion square that covers the entire view, will it behave the same as the more expensive ones?

Thanks.

 

[8trek]

Back to the IPC-Color4K-X for a moment... getting audio from the camera but the mic icon on my phone for this camera is greyed out. Anyone know how to get 2 way audio working with this camera?