NVR or DVR with slow Internet

[Bcs001]

I’m trying to pick a system to install and can’t find enough info. Hoping to get some good advice here.
I’m on 25MB satellite internet service which is the best I can get right now. I need to run a camera system that doesn’t require the video to go out and back in on the internet when I’m at home. I can feed it to a TV and PC but also want alerts and ability to see cameras on my iPhones. My understanding is that you have to use internet to get alerts and feeds to an iPhone regardless if you are at the system location or not. Is this true?
If that is true, then I was advised to go analog DVR because of my slow internet. If I go with analog cameras there are some locations that are about 150+ft from the house and I would need to run coax and power to each camera? I really want to run a POE NVR but with my internet service I’m not sure it’s going to work.
I appreciate any recommendation and advice you can offer.
Thanks,
Bruce.

 

[mat200]

I’m trying to pick a system to install and can’t find enough info. Hoping to get some good advice here.
I’m on 25MB satellite internet service which is the best I can get right now. I need to run a camera system that doesn’t require the video to go out and back in on the internet when I’m at home. I can feed it to a TV and PC but also want alerts and ability to see cameras on my iPhones. My understanding is that you have to use internet to get alerts and feeds to an iPhone regardless if you are at the system location or not. Is this true?
If that is true, then I was advised to go analog DVR because of my slow internet. If I go with analog cameras there are some locations that are about 150+ft from the house and I would need to run coax and power to each camera? I really want to run a POE NVR but with my internet service I’m not sure it’s going to work.
I appreciate any recommendation and advice you can offer.
Thanks,
Bruce.

Welcome @Bcs001 Bruce

" .. If that is true, then I was advised to go analog DVR because of my slow internet. If I go with analog cameras there are some locations that are about 150+ft from the house and I would need to run coax and power to each camera? I really want to run a POE NVR but with my internet service I’m not sure it’s going to work. .. "

Issue 1: I was advised to go analog DVR because of my slow internet.
Analog DVR vs IP NVR does not have to do with internet access if you do not need remote access.

Either technology can be on premise only and not connected to the internet.

Issue 2: " .. also want alerts and ability to see cameras on my iPhones. "
You can use a wifi router that your iPhone connects to to see cameras from your iPhone locally on the WLAN ( wifi lan ).

 

[Bcs001]

I appreciate the fast reply. I thought local Wi-Fi access should be built into the NVR and that the only need for internet would be when I was away from the system and needed alerts and camera access.
Can you recommend some 8 and 16 channel NVRs that have this local Wi-Fi access capability. I understand there will be problem with accessing high resolution cameras when I’m remote but that’s not as big an issue as when I’m local.

 

[mat200]

I appreciate the fast reply. I thought local Wi-Fi access should be built into the NVR and that the only need for internet would be when I was away from the system and needed alerts and camera access.
Can you recommend some 8 and 16 channel NVRs that have this local Wi-Fi access capability. I understand there will be problem with accessing high resolution cameras when I’m remote but that’s not as big an issue as when I’m local.

Hi @Bcs001

I would not recommend a NVR which has a built in wifi router .. not a good way to do, better to get separate gear for that ..

 

[Bcs001]

I think my post wasn’t very clear and I dont fully understand how these systems work yet. I am running my own home network off a DHCP router including both wired connections and multiple Wi-Fi access points. I’d like to connect the NVR to this network and be able to access the NVR and cameras thru my iPhones. From what I’m reading, this works fine locally over my LAN without an internet connection to the outside world. I’m assuming I would just use my phones browser and connect with the IP address of the NVR to manage and view cameras.
What I’m more confused about is how the IOS apps typically interface to the local network. Can alerts be delivered and video viewed with the app when I’m local without an internet connection?

 

[tigerwillow1]

I agree with mat200's comments and will add to them I'd consider any NVR with built-in wifi to be a consumer level product, which most of the active forum members shy away from. I'm running a Dahua NVR on the local network and have a separate hardwired wifi access point (a low end wifi router configured only as an access point). A wifi connection to this access point and then to any device on the home network runs at the wifi connection speed and has nothing whatsoever to do with the outside internet speed.

(Sarcasm on) You mis-named the thread. It should be NVR or DVR with fast Internet. (Sarcasm off)
My internet connection is max 6 Mbps down and 1 Mbps up. Remote video access isn't too good at these speeds. If I view 4 or 8 MP video on the main stream, I get one frame every few seconds. If I want to see motion I have to use a low-def substream. Fortunately, this is good enough for my purposes of seeing if the house still looks intact while I'm away, and for specifically checking out motion events.

I don't see what an analog vs. IP NVR has to do with any of this, other than the analog NVR likely has lower def video to send out to a remote connection. I achieve the same thing when viewing a low def substream. I'm not an IOS user and have to stay away from guessing how things work with it.

 

[Bcs001]

Tigerwillow1, that’s the kind of info I’m looking for. I’m running multiple indoor/outdoor Ubiquiti Wi-Fi APs so my LAN is pretty fast. It’s my satellite internet with 800ms latency that’s the problem.

I still don’t quite understand if I’d be able to view video locally from my phone. How are you doing this?

How do you view the live video when you are

 

[tigerwillow1]

I view the video locally on a windows PC using the smartPss app. I also use smartPss on a windows laptop for remote viewing. I tried Dahua's GDMSS app on an android phone and thought it sucked compared to smartPss, but don't take that as a reliable report without other confirmation because it could have been operator error. Being a smartphone hater I gave up trying to view on the phone. I'm not a good source for iPhone and/or Mac info.

 

[mat200]

FWIW - Tinycam is a 3rd party camera app that many like for Android OS .. could be a good app out there for IPhone that some like also ..

 

[Bcs001]

I still don’t have a good understanding about my options for monitoring live and if possible, recorded video from an NVR while on-site and WITHOUT upload or download from the internet. I know the live feeds and recording are available on a lan connected network pc thru the NVR interface but not clear how it can be done locally on an IPhone/iPad.
Are there NVR systems available that also have an IOS app that can directly connect to the NVR without going out on the internet? I just want to understand what’s possible and not be surprised when I get a system up and running and find out it won’t do what I want.

 

[wittaj]

You are overthinking it. Maybe it is the terminology internet. You can have wifi in your house without internet and all the devices can communicate to each other via that wifi. Some people call wifi as internet, but you can have wifi without internet, and you can have internet without wifi, and you can have both or none.

You only need internet to view the NVR when not on your home internet. If you have your cameras connected to the internet then you either did something wrong or you are intentionally putting them on the internet.

Your NVR is given an IP address on your local network (LAN) that is the same IP address range of your iphone/ipad, etc. is connected to.

The NVR app on your phone simply points to the IP address of the NVR. No internet is required when viewing at home.

 

[Bcs001]

You are overthinking it. Maybe it is the terminology internet. You can have wifi in your house without internet and all the devices can communicate to each other via that wifi. Some people call wifi as internet, but you can have wifi without internet, and you can have internet without wifi, and you can have both or none.

wittaj.....you are not the first person to tell me this and as an engineer I'm sure I am.
I do appreciate the clarification and yes I am specifically talking about being able to use the manufacturer's ios app over my home network wifi while having no connection to the internet (outside world). I keep seeing lots of discussion about using these Apps while away from home. I fully understand that the feeds will have go over the internet when I'm not at home and that's a separate issue I'll need to deal with due to my very limited upload speeds and high latency with satellite service but that appears to be workable with systems that can generate dual resolution streams. I run my own network router and with a little help I should be able to configure my router and the NVR to permit at least low resolution remote viewing and alarms to come thru.

I just have not seen anything that says definitively the manufacturer's ios app will connect directly with the NVR while at the same location and without going out to the web. Maybe this is the disconnect in my understand in that the ios app wont connect to the NVR but rather to each IP camera independently of the the NVR or that I will need to a 3rd party app to connect with feed when on the LAN? I'm considering the 16 channel Hikvision DS-7616NXI-I2/16P/S and so far everything I find about the Hik Connect app only talks about remote access, nothing about how it connects when local on the same NVR network.

If there are other manufacturer systems I should consider for functionality that may be closer to what I want, I'd appreciate any recommendations.....thanks.

 

[wittaj]

Again you are overthinking LOL. Most here do not even give their NVR internet access and obviously they are able to review their NVR on their phone (more on that in a bit)

I will caveat this with if you went with the consumer route, kinda systems you buy at a big box store, then yes some of those systems may require an internet connection to see the cameras. But since you are looking at a Hik, then you don't need internet if using locally on your wifi. Many here prefer Dahua over Hikvision, but that comes down to your choice.

The NVR is on your home IP address range. For arguments let's say your home internet is 192.168.1.XXX. So the NVR is 192.168.1.100.

Unless you purposely put your cameras on that same internet range as your home wifi (not recommended), by default when you plug the cameras into the NVR ports, it will assign them a different IP address range - typically 10.0.0.XXX

That then means your cameras are isolated from the internet. Even when you are on your home wifi, you will not connect to the cameras directly. The video feeds go thru the NVR. So your ipad sitting on 192.168.1.92 will be directed to the NVR at 192.168.1.100 in the app.

Now if you P2P the NVR and give it internet access, then it will go thru the manufacturer cloud service to view the video remotely.

A totally different topic, but these "security" systems (really surveillance systems) ironically are very insecure as it relates to internet connections.

So most people here do not allow their NVR to even access the internet. They VLAN it or dual NIC it into a PC and then use a VPN like OpenVPN (a VPN that you host and puts you back on your home internet and not the VPN that is paid and masks your IP for porno and illegal streaming) in order to be able to access it remotely.

The reason all you see when you read about the Hik app and remote access is because it is assuming that you are not the typical Ring or Arlo consumer and you would know that the app will work when on your own wifi LOL.

If you go with Dahua, here is a great step-by-step process:

***PSA for those with a New DAHUA NVR with Built-in PoE switch

IF you have a Dahua NVR with built-in PoE switch... DO NOT follow instructions telling you to use the config tool or switch the IP of your cameras or initialize anything..! With NVR's typically with a -P designation (Built-n PoE switch - example: 4208-8P-4KS2) none of that is required and it...

ipcamtalk.com

And info on how to not even give your NVR internet access yet still be able to access it when not at home:

How to Secure Your Network (Don't Get Hacked!)

Many camera networks are unsecure, even those installed by professionals. This guide gives basic instruction in how to secure a camera network from the most common types of attacks. Perhaps the most important rule of securing a computer network is to not forward ports to unsecure services...

ipcamtalk.com

VPN Primer for Noobs

The internet is a force of nature; no video surveillance system made was designed to be exposed to those forces.. NEVER FORWARD PORTS to your NVR or Cameras, doing such things not only exposes you to severe security problems, but everyone else on the internet too.. Hackers dont want your video...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[Bcs001]

I really appreciate that detail wittaj. I wasn't able to find this kind of detail so far and its exactly what I was looking for. Didn't want to invest high $$s then find out it wasn't going to do what wanted. I'll read thru those links later and seriously consider the Dahua NVRs. As for remote access, I will need it because we located an a very rural area and my wife is home alone. I need to know whats going on the property when Im at work. You've given me lots to read about. I use a VPN when I work from home but it definitely slows an already slow upload/download connection but it sounds like there are other options. Thanks.

 

[wittaj]

Well to muddy it even further, I'd recommend you consider a Blue Iris/computer combo as an NVR. Keep in mind an NVR is simply a stripped down computer after all... And this would allow you the flexibility to mix camera brands and then be able to get the right camera for the right location.

One camera cannot be the be all, see all. Each one is selected for covering a specific area. Most of us here have different brands and types, from fixed cams, to varifocals, to PTZs, each one selected for it's primary purpose and to utilize the strength of that particular camera.

So you will need to identify the distance the camera would be from the activities you want to IDENTIFY on and purchase the correct camera for that distance as an optical zoom. In some instances, it may be a 2MP or 4MP that is the right camera. DO NOT CHASE MP!!!

If you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact.

You don't need to buy components and build one, or buy a new computer either.

When I was looking at replacing an existing NVR, once I realized that not all NVRs are created equal (the bandwidth is can process is a huge limiting factor), and once I priced out a good one, it was cheaper to buy a refurbished computer than an NVR.

Many of us buy refurbished computers that are business class computers that have come off lease. The one I bought I kid you not I could not tell that it was a refurbished unit - not a speck of dust or dents or scratches on it. It appeared to me like everything was replaced and I would assume just the motherboard with the intel processor is what was from the original unit. I went with the lowest end processor on the WIKI list as it was the cheapest and it runs my system fine. Could probably get going for $200 or so. A real NVR will cost more than that.

A member here a couple months ago found a refurbished 4th generation for less than $150USD that came with Win10 PRO, 16GB RAM, and a 1TB drive. You won't find a capable NVR cheaper than that...

Blue Iris has a demo, so try it out on an existing computer and see if you like it.

There is a big Blue Iris or NVR debate here LOL. Some people love Blue Iris and think NVRs are clunky and hard to use and others think Blue Iris is clunky and hard to use. I have done both and prefer Blue Iris. As with everything YMMV...

And you can disable Windows updates and set up the computer to automatically restart in a power failure, and then you have a more powerful NVR with a nice mobile viewing interface.

Blue Iris is great and works with probably more camera brands than most VMS programs, but there are brands that don't work well or not at all - Rings, Arlos, Nest, Some Zmodo cams use proprietary systems and cannot be used with Blue Iris, and for a lot of people Reolink doesn't work well either. But we would recommend staying away from those brands even if you go the NVR route with one of those brands...

Personally I have found the feed from BI to use a lot less "internet" than trying to stream the NVR. YMMV.

 

[samplenhold]

I just have not seen anything that says definitively the manufacturer's ios app will connect directly with the NVR while at the same location and without going out to the web.

This seems to be your big question. While I can't answer for an NVR, I do run BlueIris and connect to BI via the BI app on my cellphone when I am in range of my home WIFI. This is NOT going out to the internet. My phone is connected to my LAN via WIFI.

I have no knowledge of NVRs, but there are others here that do and could probably answer this fundamental question for you. @bigredfish @Flintstone61 and @Wildcat_1 come to mind when I think of those that use NVRs.

 

[Wildcat_1]

This seems to be your big question. While I can't answer for an NVR, I do run BlueIris and connect to BI via the BI app on my cellphone when I am in range of my home WIFI. This is NOT going out to the internet. My phone is connected to my LAN via WIFI.

I have no knowledge of NVRs, but there are others here that do and could probably answer this fundamental question for you. @bigredfish @Flintstone61 and @Wildcat_1 come to mind when I think of those that use NVRs.

Thanks for tagging me in @samplenhold. @Bcs001 I can confirm that YES you can use iDMSS (for example) with a locked down security system (NVR in this example) to access your cams + recorded footage. Hope that helps

 

[bigredfish]

This seems to be your big question. While I can't answer for an NVR, I do run BlueIris and connect to BI via the BI app on my cellphone when I am in range of my home WIFI. This is NOT going out to the internet. My phone is connected to my LAN via WIFI.

I have no knowledge of NVRs, but there are others here that do and could probably answer this fundamental question for you. @bigredfish @Flintstone61 and @Wildcat_1 come to mind when I think of those that use NVRs.

Yes I’m doing it now and do every day.
When inside my home network, my iPhone and my NVR are on the same internal network. IDMSS (Dahua) simply connects via my LAN to the NVR or individual cameras (depending on how you set things up) directly.

Now if you choose to use P2P as an option to connect to your NVR, I’m not certain but in that case your app may well go out to the internet and back to connect. Most of us don’t use P2P for that and other reasons

 

[Bcs001]

Well to muddy it even further, I'd recommend you consider a Blue Iris/computer combo as an NVR. Keep in mind an NVR is simply a stripped down computer after all... And this would allow you the flexibility to mix camera brands and then be able to get the right camera for the right location.

Thanks for the great description and details to consider in designing a system. Lots of options to consider. I spent some time learning about BI and it’s a definite possibility within my capabilities to make work.

This seems to be your big question. While I can't answer for an NVR, I do run BlueIris and connect to BI via the BI app on my cellphone when I am in range of my home WIFI. This is NOT going out to the internet. My phone is connected to my LAN via WIFI.

I have no knowledge of NVRs, but there are others here that do and could probably answer this fundamental question for you. @bigredfish @Flintstone61 and @Wildcat_1 come to mind when I think of those that use NVRs.

Thanks for tagging me in @samplenhold. @Bcs001 I can confirm that YES you can use iDMSS (for example) with a locked down security system (NVR in this example) to access your cams + recorded footage. Hope that helps

Yes I’m doing it now and do every day.
When inside my home network, my iPhone and my NVR are on the same internal network. IDMSS (Dahua) simply connects via my LAN to the NVR or individual cameras (depending on how you set things up) directly.

Thanks for the details guys. I’m starting to get familiar with the terminology and options available to me.
Can you clarify the difference between IDMSS and P2P. Is this just for the initial setup of the cameras or are they different operating modes of the system?

 

[wittaj]

IDMSS is the Apple app. So, GDMSS is the google app LOL.

P2P is not an app. It is the protocol that connects your cameras to someone else's servers. It is scanning the QR code to allow you to see your cameras anywhere, but it isn't very secure. P2P is on about every IOT if you chose to go with simplicity over security. It is the protocol almost every device uses that is cloud-based.