NVR vs BI

I am tasked with installing a 16 camera system for my club. I will be going exclusively with IPC-HDW5231R-Z cameras (or maybe the ZE's), no legacy analog. I originally thought that I would go the NVR route with the NCR5216_5232-16p-4ks2. But now I'm rethinking a PC based sytem with BI.

My past experience is with a cheap Costco-like Defender system. The software was HORRIBLE with almost useless search functions. So now that I see here that many prefer the functions of BI, especially the remote operation, and I have no experience with it or a modern NVR, I'm unsure which way to go. Here are my requirements and some other info:

1. I need to easily search the files for activity (sweeping the timeline and watching the video as fast as I want real time would be nice, like a Nest camera archive, if anyone has experience with that). All cameras will record on motion. I do not need alarms or trip wires. I must be able to search by time or a list of motion events on a particular camera.

2. I need to be able to group cameras so that if motion is observed on one, the others in that group will also record.

3. Remote access is important. Is it true that with the NVR phone/tablet app you can only view the live feed? I may be able to live with that if the remote software for a PC works well.

4. Cost is not a major consideration. I know I will need a good PC (I have seen recommendations in another thread) and a switch.

4. I am PC literate and a friend could help me if I get stuck with network configuration. I am drawn to the seemingly easy install and upkeep of a NVR but I am willing to give that up for a major improvement in functionality.

So, which way to go??
 
GaryDZ said:
I am tasked with installing a 16 camera system for my club. I will be going exclusively with IPC-HDW5231R-Z cameras (or maybe the ZE's), no legacy analog. I originally thought that I would go the NVR route with the NCR5216_5232-16p-4ks2. But now I'm rethinking a PC based sytem with BI.

My past experience is with a cheap Costco-like Defender system. The software was HORRIBLE with almost useless search functions. So now that I see here that many prefer the functions of BI, especially the remote operation, and I have no experience with it or a modern NVR, I'm unsure which way to go. Here are my requirements and some other info:

1. I need to easily search the files for activity (sweeping the timeline and watching the video as fast as I want real time would be nice, like a Nest camera archive, if anyone has experience with that). All cameras will record on motion. I do not need alarms or trip wires. I must be able to search by time or a list of motion events on a particular camera.

2. I need to be able to group cameras so that if motion is observed on one, the others in that group will also record.

3. Remote access is important. Is it true that with the NVR phone/tablet app you can only view the live feed? I may be able to live with that if the remote software for a PC works well.

4. Cost is not a major consideration. I know I will need a good PC (I have seen recommendations in another thread) and a switch.

4. I am PC literate and a friend could help me if I get stuck with network configuration. I am drawn to the seemingly easy install and upkeep of a NVR but I am willing to give that up for a major improvement in functionality.

So, which way to go??
Click to expand...
If cost is not a major issue, then consider an enterprise vms package like avigilon or digital watchdog...DW is 70 dollars per camera but offers lifetime upgrades free...
 
GaryDZ said:
1. I need to easily search the files for activity (sweeping the timeline and watching the video as fast as I want real time would be nice, like a Nest camera archive, if anyone has experience with that). All cameras will record on motion. I do not need alarms or trip wires. I must be able to search by time or a list of motion events on a particular camera.

2. I need to be able to group cameras so that if motion is observed on one, the others in that group will also record.

3. Remote access is important. Is it true that with the NVR phone/tablet app you can only view the live feed? I may be able to live with that if the remote software for a PC works well.
Click to expand...

1- Most all of the better Dahua NVR/DVR's provide this
2- Yep again
3- Remote in via smartphone App, tablet, laptop. Can view just substream or live stream, can login to DVR remotely and do whatever you need. The remote software is your browser. The NVR/DVR has a web server built in with all of the functionality you will need. Dahau also makes SmartPSS which can also be used to remote into the system and more..

I'm not sure what some folks mean by problems or loss of functionality regarding Remote access into the Dahua NVR/DVR's?
 
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I'm also on the fence. After my first round of research I concluded that a simple $280 dvr should be effective enough, but now that I've got cams and a poe switch on the way I'm reconsidering those posts regarding potential problems with iphone apps, motion, etc. BI seems to have better reviews in general, especially when it comes to mixing in an iphone. Unfortunately, I'll never convince my darkside wife go android; she's even managed to get my oldest daughter under her wing... but I win with the younger 2 showing sure signs of open source enlightenment, LOL. So anyways, the iphone app needs to work, erm, 'as easy as apple' for my wife. ;)

What I don't like about BI is having to buy another decently powerful pc that must be 'off limits' to my family. That's a tough sell in our household, which sure could use another 2 or 3 rigs. I've seen posts both ways; BI rig really should stay dedicated, vs it's cool to multitask as long as you don't screw up drivers. So I'm curious where the balance lies with multitasking on a BI machine...

For reference, assume it's a sandybridge+8gm+win10:
Could I at least run dns, dhcp, mqtt, a small webpage for smarthome info, and maybe some other 'lite services' on it? (this would be my desired route)
Could my kids (non-admins) still play roblox,steam, etc on it, or would that guarantee dropped frames? (sketchy, but the family is likely to lobby endlessly for it regardless what you or I think)

Now, to be fair to the dvr arguments... are there decent examples of dvrs+apps that play well with mixed iphone/android clients that I should hear about?

Thanks,
Kev
 
truglo said:
What I don't like about BI is having to buy another decently powerful pc that must be 'off limits' to my family. That's a tough sell in our household, which sure could use another 2 or 3 rigs available. I've seen posts both ways; BI rig really should stay dedicated, vs it's cool as long as you don't screw up drivers. So I'm curious where the balance lies with multitasking on a BI machine...
Click to expand...
A $150-200 dollar pc + 70 dollars for BI brings you to the same exact price point as the NVR....dont multitask on the machine...if you buy an NVR your wouldnt multitask either...
 
$150-200! What&where? Man, I was thinking 400 for a gen6, to be future proof.

Hmm, would something like this work?:
$210 Dell Optiplex 900/G2 i5/8gb

I have built every PC I own ('cept laptops), but it's been a while and now full setups are much cheaper. So I haven't looked much at the BYOPC route. If you guys have ideas to the contrary, please share.
 
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truglo said:
$150-200! What&where? Man, I was thinking 400 for a gen6, to be future proof.

Hmm, would something like this work?:
$210 Dell Optiplex 900/G2 i5/8gb

I have built every PC I own ('cept laptops), but it's been a while and now full setups are much cheaper. So I haven't looked much at the BYOPC route. If you guys have ideas to the contrary, please share.
Click to expand...
that is way overpriced...search the threads here...if you want to future proof with gen 6, its about 300 for an i5-6500...otherwise pick up a third or 4th gen i5 for 150-200...building will always be more expensive...
 
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Thanks fenderman. That sets me aim which makes things way easier. Now regarding the wiped drive; how functional would a BI machine be without the key? Doesn't microsoft shut down non-activated win10 after a short while?
 
truglo said:
Thanks fenderman. That sets me aim which makes things way easier. Now regarding the wiped drive; how functional would a BI machine be without the key? Doesn't microsoft shut down non-activated win10 after a short while?
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no any machine that once had w10 activated will be able to reactivate, with the original mobo...however, you can easily find systems with 10 already installed or that came with both 7 and 10 licenses...note any 7 license can still be upgraded to 10 for free...Accessibility at Microsoft
 
Thanks again, that's excellent info. Back to searching... earlier I saw some wiped pcs with 10 keys that were much lower priced.

It has been a while... I thought someone could activate a key on a 2nd pc, which would deactivate the 1st. I used to do that with older versions of win for hardware upgrades. I also thought ms stopped free 7 upgrades.
 
truglo said:
It has been a while... I thought someone could activate a key on a 2nd pc, which would deactivate the 1st. I used to do that with older versions of win for hardware upgrades. I also thought ms stopped free 7 upgrades.
Click to expand...
Activating on a 2nd PC and deactivate 1st is generally limited to consumer versions, where OEM versions were limited to that specific machine. Even at that it is not perfect as one time when replacing a motherboard and re-installing Windows, I had to call and grovel before the Microsoft gods before they would recognize it. An EU lawsuit forced Microsoft's hand where they have loosened the restriction and as a result created the Ebay market of very inexpensive Windows licenses "from recycled unrepairable computers - wink wink". Of course they send you the licenses code immediately, they also are supposed to send you the unrepairable computer parts that you dispose of, which if they don't arrive, noone complains. Reality is they are probably just hacked licensing codes without having to go into the malware infested torrent underground to obtain which has always existed..
 
Noise tip: If your new/used pre-built computer or personal build is noisy, the likely culprit is the CPU fan. Replace it! One of the best and relatively inexpensive upgrades you can do.

The stock Intel cooler that Intel provides free with the CPU not designed for overclocking is notorious for it's noise. While my primary PC has a very popular Cooler Master the dedicated computer case wouldn't support the 153mm height, other companies make units that are even quieter. Noctura is highly regarded and quite premium priced. Tempted but just replaced Artic Freezer 13 (CO model, bearings designed for 24/7 running) which is 130mm high fitting within the case and at $29.95 very cost competitive with other premium coolers. Also noted that the standard rear 80mm case fan only used 3 pins where 4 pin were available on the motherboard. No harm, but that 4th pin is what the motherboard temp management system uses to adjust the fan speed according to cooking requirements, where 3 pins runs 100% all the time. Replaced it with a 80mm Noctura found on sale for $15. My computer now is virtually silent!

If you have a thin case (around 3.5" wide) they make low profile coolers that look like the stock Intel. The key is to look at the dB (or Sone) ratings in the 22-25 (0.3-0.5) range in the specs vs the 30+ (or 1+) range.
 
This installation at my club will need to go weeks without any intervention. Can you configure a PC to reboot and load the program by itself if power is lost longer than a UPS can provide?
 
GaryDZ said:
This installation at my club will need to go weeks without any intervention. Can you configure a PC to reboot and load the program by itself if power is lost longer than a UPS can provide?
Click to expand...
yes of course...
 
I'm leaning toward the NVR. You can basically install it and forget it. No OS upgrades to worry about. I'm getting the feeling that many on this forum enjoy the ongoing interaction with the products that they purchase. As much as I am also that kind of person, in this instance I need to keep the work of maintaining this system for my club at a minimum.
 
GaryDZ said:
I'm leaning toward the NVR. You can basically install it and forget it. No OS upgrades to worry about. I'm getting the feeling that many on this forum enjoy the ongoing interaction with the products that they purchase. As much as I am also that kind of person, in this instance I need to keep the work of maintaining this system for my club at a minimum.
Click to expand...
Big misconception...both are running OS...both should never be exposed to the internet unless you are using a vpn, therefore you never have to update the windows os...if you choose to expose the NVR to the internet, you will actually be at a greater risk than the pc...the pc can be updated easily while vulnerabilities in NVR's are often never patched, and when they are its dont many months after the vulnerability has been made public...I run over 20 blue iris systems, I dont, i just set it and forget it..
The other benefit of a pc is that if you dont like the VMS, its easy to move to something else...with an NVR you are at the mercy of a china manufacture....not a place you want to be...
 
Yeah I had the same thoughts... my win10 pc's pretty much maintains themselves these days, but even still any updates to my cam setup (cams and dvr or pc) would be "dropped" by my router script. So regardless if it was dvr or pc, if I had to update, it would be more than 'push a gui button'.

I honestly foresee myself doing more 'tweaking' to get an nvr tick-tocking exactly the way I need compared to a pc. I know pc well, am familiar with several vms options, and feel more confidence stepping forward with bi since I need iPhone apps to work for non-geeks. All the mixed stories about app features that are broken don't inspire confidence. I haven't even mentioned the dropped frames with alarm events... dvrs scare me lol.
 
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So my cameras arrived Wednesday, and I've been playing/testing them with BI since that evening. In one word... AWESOME!

I've got 3 assorted starlight cams going so far (from Empiretech@aliexpress... a mini dome, a turret, and a bullet... the ones that are highly regarded on IPCT). They're streaming at 25 & 30fps/h264/10kbps to my aging daily driver pc (i5-2500k/8gb) and it is averaging 30% cpu use. It seems to be working fine on the non-dedicated PC, but I ordered a standalone rig to be sure... I'm so impressed with BI already that it was an easy purchase decision for me. Maybe someday down the road I'll get a DVR as a 'secondary remote storage' to hide in my attic in case a thief makes of with the BI rig. If that happens now, I'll have to get SD cards out of the cams.

So far BI has everything I need with it's 'Object Detection' settings, and they are working very reliably. IIRC, many folks were having issues with their NVR missing the initial (critical) seconds of footage during IVS events. I suppose that could be limited by hardware latency (maybe a firmware fix someday?), and I noticed BI starts off behaving similarly with default settings. However BI has a 'pretrigger buffer' setting that lets me include however many seconds of footage before the event happens so every event includes every single juicy second of action. For example say I setup an object detector A<->B line (like dahua ivs), instead of just showing footage of me crossing that line, the event includes footage of me walking in to the room before I crossed it.

There are a whole lot of features in BI, but after playing around they are all easy for the average tech-oriented dude to tackle, and it's very nice to have them to begin with. I'm looking forward to using the digital I/O features to integrate my cams with the rest of my alarm system. There are turn key devices to do that, but I'm just going to use an arduino (got several laying around).

The only thing I haven't played with is the phone apps (waiting on my dedicated rig to arrive from ebay next week, then I buy BI full version and apps to go with it). However even without the apps I'm getting prompt emails and texts for events (you gotta setup 'push' delivery with gmail, then the emails come within seconds). The webserver also works great both at home and away (accessing remotely through openvpn); that feature, along with the sms and emails has already got many of my friends very interested. So if that's any indication, I'm sure the app will be easy breezy.

About the only complaint I can think of... having to setup the cameras through a browser. BI is controlling all the PTZ stuff itself (ir/exposure...), so after initial cam config (user/IP/...) the cam webpage becomes unecessary really.

Hope this helps folks on the fence,
Kev
 
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