Opinions on home CCTV build plan (was: SD6AE230F-HNI vs SD6AE240V-HNI)

Merlin93

Merlin93

Young grasshopper
Jul 23, 2017
62
25
San Francisco (bay area)
Hey folks,

I've been lurking around these forums for quite a while gathering intel for a some camera purchases, and I think I'm getting pretty close to pulling the trigger on a big Dahua camera purchase in the near future (hopefully via Andy), but before I do so, I wanted to get some opinions about some of the cameras and placement.

In any case, my home is 3 levels but built up the side of a hill. Each level is built on top of the previous, but only overlaps a small amount so all three levels are basically on solid ground going up the hill, which means ingress into my home can happen as easily on level 3 as on level 1 or 2. But, because I am on a hill, its also pretty tough to get to my house by any means other than coming up the steep driveway (or hiking), and I have neighbors to the east and south of my house which blocks some access points.

I put together a basic site plan for my house and divided it into zones. After taking into account the calculator at ipvm and with the goal of 150ppf or so for each viewing arc, I came up with the following camera placement plan:

House_Camera_Layout.png


Note: Red boxes are the zone boundaries in terms of areas I'm trying to cover in each zone. Green areas are the camera view for 120+ ppf (roughly based on IPVM) with camera icons roughly where I expect to place them. Btw, north is up on the diagram if it matters.

Zone 1:
This most critical point with a wide coverage area. A single fixed camera is probably not going to be able to give me enough PPF for face detection or license plate identification for anyone coming up the driveway until they're super close, and I'd lose them if they go around the corner to the south of my house or up to the right side of the house. So, I am thinking I'll want a PTZ here since I can have it wide angle and zoom in to track anyone who enters the intrusion area.

For PTZ cameras I am debating between the SD6AE230F-HNI and SD6AE240V-HNI Ultra Starlight PTZ's. The former has a larger but older (2015) imager (1/1.9" @ f/1.5-4.3) for strong light gathering but the latter has a smaller but newer imager (1/2.8" @ f/1.2-3.5) along with 140dB vs 120dB WDR, and H.265+ vs H.264 video compression. The 230F is also $300 more expensive (though strangely enough the same price for LED as laser IR, so I don't know if I'd want the laser model instead.) I couldn't find any head to head tests of the 230FN vs the 240V but I'm interested in how they compare so I can make a final choice here.

Zone 2:
There are stairs that lead up from zone 1 to zone 2, and the most critical area is to cover that path, though I think I will eventually need two cameras to cover zone 2 properly. One facing SE like I have in the diagram, and one facing E or NE, though a panoramic camera or another PTZ might work best here... given it's less critical I didn't think a PTZ or two cameras was worth the additional expense right now.

I am planning to use an IPC-HDW5231R-Z Eco-Savvy 3.0 turret.

Zone 3:
This is a walkway between the back of the house and the mountain. I have bedrooms along this wall with windows that open up to this walkway. Its unlikely anyone could get back here without traveling through zone 1-2, so I consider this camera optional, but I have planned for it either way.

I am planning to go with another IPC-HDW5231R-Z turret in this location for now.

Zone 4:
This is the rear deck and has access via sliding glass doors, so its a likely access point for someone trying to get into the house without being seen from the driveway or neighbors. Access is via a stairway along the side of the house so camera I need a longer lens for this... at least 15mm.

For camera, I am planning to go with an IPC-HFW8232E-Z Ultra Starlight bullet. That gives me the best combo of zoom (16.4mm) and super low light sensitivity for awesome night vision. Though I am also considering an IPC-HFW8231E-Z5 Ultra Starlight WDR bullet as an alternative.

Zone 5:
Lastly, this is basically the rear door, the bottom of the steps leading to the back of the house, and my small backyard area. Anyone coming up to the back will have to go through here, but distances are short so I can get away with a bit less camera. So, I am thinking I'll put another IPC-HDW5231R-Z turret here.

I plan to have all these connected to a Dahua NVR5216-4KS2 (though I am tempted to get the PoE version, even though its a bit less flexible.)

I'd appreciate a critique on the plan or any additional advice before I pull the trigger. I'm well versed with the networking side so running the cable, etc. won't be an issue, and I used to do a lot of DSLR photography a few years back, so I'm also well versed in the optics, but I don't have any prior experience with network IP cameras, aside from stuff like Nest and a couple Maximus/Kuna light fixture cameras.

I'm mostly looking for real world experience with the SD6AE230F-HNI and SD6AE240V-HNI Ultra PTZ cameras, plus I'd love any advice from more experienced CCTV enthusiasts/installers on any other Dahua camera recommendations that may work better for my site.

Thanks! And Apologizes for the length. :)
 
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Looks like you've really thought this through, good job!

Agree with @fenderman in maybe not relying on the PTZ for primary coverage. Maybe use two fixed cameras for Zone 1, the location you show plus one in that corner closest to the front of the car, crisscrossing their fields of view. Then use your high powered PTZ to provide "extra" coverage along that whole south side of the house (Zone 1 to 5)
 
fenderman said:
You cannot use a ptz to zoom in and autotrack...it will not work well..
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bigredfish said:
Agree with @fenderman in maybe not relying on the PTZ for primary coverage. Maybe use two fixed cameras for Zone 1, the location you show plus one in that corner closest to the front of the car, crisscrossing their fields of view. Then use your high powered PTZ to provide "extra" coverage along that whole south side of the house (Zone 1 to 5)
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Thanks for the feedback!

I know that PTZ auto tracking can be problematic without extensive tweaking (and ideally supplemented with external sensors to assist) but my thoughts were that the default view would cover 90% of what I need, and the biggest advantage with the PTZ is being able to track someone who moves in the scene. This would serve two purposes:
  1. It would show me anyone who moves SW to get into my backyard and rear of the house; and
  2. due to how loud it is, anyone who tried that would definately realize they were being watched/tracked.
I need to update the camera plan, but there is actually another camera on there already, next to the door facing SW and covers the front door, garage and where the PTZ would be mounted, but doesn't offer much view of the driveway.

If I didn't go with the PTZ, for the price I could get 2-3 nice Ultra Starlight bullets or turrets. I could put one where the PTZ is now and one on the corner of the house where zone 1 and 2 meet, and save some money. But I'd lose coverage along the south side between zones 1->5, I'd lose tracking, which I like for the reasons stated above... and the coolness factor. ;)
 
10-4 on the coolness factor ;)

I think we're pretty close in thinking.
 
bigredfish said:
10-4 on the coolness factor ;)

I think we're pretty close in thinking.
Click to expand...
So, if I drop the PTZ in zone 1 and go with two Ultra Starlight Bullets, I'd end up with something like this to keep a 150 PPF or so (more like 120PPF for the camera closest to the bottom of the screen.)

House_Camera_Layout_v2.png


The smaller camera in zone 1 with the blue view area is my pre-existing Kuna (Maximus) wifi porchlight camera next to the front door. Its only 720p but works well enough for seeing who is coming to the door and if a package is left. It's actually pretty cool, since it also allows 2-way audio and playing pre-recorded messages, etc. and has its own alarm that I can trigger from the phone app. It isn't ONVIF compatible though, so I can't connect it to the NVR.

The camera between zones 1 and 2 would need to be at 16.4mm so pretty narrow to be able to get a solid view of anyone coming up the driveway. That would mean the other camera can be a bit wider and closer range. But it would also mean I'd miss all traffic along the side of the house going between zone 1 and 5. I suppose I could add an Eco Savvy bullet or turret back there, maybe where zone 1 and 5 meet. Alternatively, I could ignore the path between zone 1->5 and add a second camera to zone 2. Hmm.

The PTZ still feels like the better option for zone 1. Though it sounds like if I want to do that, I'd still need to keep the corner camera between zones 1-2 as well. Which would just add more cost. Though if I went with the 240V instead of the 230F, that would cover the 2nd camera. Hmmm.

Thanks. :)
 
Merlin93 said:
and I think I'm getting pretty close to pulling the trigger on a big Dahua camera purchase in the near future (hopefully via Andy),

This is a walkway between the back of the house and the mountain. I have bedrooms along this wall with windows that open up to this walkway. Its unlikely anyone could get back here without traveling through zone 1-2, so I consider this camera optional, but I have planned for it either way.

I am planning to go with another IPC-HDW5231R-Z turret in this location for now.
Click to expand...
My approach as a fellow IP camera newbie is to start off small with just a couple of camera purchases and see how that goes. Then buy more cameras to extend the system. I've now bought my second camera from Andy and he is very fast to respond. I ordered the first camera on a Thursday night and it was delivered on Monday. The firmware on the first camera updated easily and its been running a couple of weeks. I connect via the app and can also stream back footage from the SD card.

I was also looking at the NVR, but I might just settle for 128gb cards in the cameras... good luck, and let us know how you get on.
 
I think one thing most folks dont count on at first is how many cameras you really need to cover all that you want to with great ID capabilities. Its tempting to cover large areas with multiple choke points with a single camera.

My house is a modest 1950 sq ft and it ultimately took 8 cameras to do the job, and I'd love to have two more ;)
 
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bobsmith said:
My approach as a fellow IP camera newbie is to start off small with just a couple of camera purchases and see how that goes. Then buy more cameras to extend the system. I've now bought my second camera from Andy and he is very fast to respond. I ordered the first camera on a Thursday night and it was delivered on Monday. The firmware on the first camera updated easily and its been running a couple of weeks. I connect via the app and can also stream back footage from the SD card.

I was also looking at the NVR, but I might just settle for 128gb cards in the cameras... good luck, and let us know how you get on.
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Yeah I get that, but at the same time there is a time advantage to doing all the wire pulls and such at the same time, not to mention a better break on pricing for a full kit. But ultimately, I am between contracts right now so I have the time to do it, where in the future I cannot be sure how much time I'll have, so I'm thinking I'd rather just do it all at once. I have been considering just starting out with the NVR and one or two key cameras just to get the hang of things... but I'm not expecting problems.

Thanks for the feedback!
 
bigredfish said:
I think one thing most folks dont count on at first is how many cameras you really need to cover all that you want to with great ID capabilities. Its tempting to cover large areas with multiple choke points with a single camera.

My house is a modest 1950 sq ft and it ultimately took 8 cameras to do the job, and I'd love to have two more ;)
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'm already seeing that and changed the initial plan from one big camera in zone 1 to two (technically three if you count the existing Kuna camera.) I know I'll need at least two cameras in zone 2 (or a panoramic camera like the IPC-PFW8601-A180 or IPC-PFW8800-A180) to give good coverage in zone 2, but it its not crucial right now. If those panoramic cameras were about 50% less I'd be getting one of them for sure, but its cheaper to get two turret cameras.

I'm currently debating switching out the PTZ completely for the IPC-HFW81230E-Z 12MP bullet since from what I'm being told, the PTZ's auto tracking can't really be counted upon for any serious security, and PTZ's are really best suited as a manned backup camera to supplement existing fixed cameras. So I may hold off on that for now and get one later that I mount higher up on the house so I can use it across multiple zones for additional detail. But I'm not sure. The 12MP isn't a starlight camera, but that area is lit up by exterior lights until 11pm each night with motion triggers to turn them back on again, so any cameras I have in zone 1 shouldn't really have to worry too much about light. I am mostly looking for a camera that can ID people who come up the driveway during the day, since most burlaries happen between 10am and 3pm, at least in this area.

Thanks!
 
bigredfish said:
12MP Starlight box camera...
IPC-HF81230E | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology
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I saw that, but I don't know a lot about them. From what I can tell, box cameras don't appear to come with lenses which means I have to buy them seperately. Not sure what my options are or where to get the lenses, but I've read that you can get some really bright glass for them (f/1.2 for example) which would really help with light gathering, particularly given they have the new IMX226 Exmor R/Starvis imagers. But it feels like they're designed for indoor use since they are not IP66+ rated, and I get a lot of wet in this area (fog most every night, plus some serious rain storms now and then.)
 
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bigredfish said:
Housings
Outdoor Housing - Dahua Technology
I have a couple of Axis 2MP cameras in similar housings mounted on poles for the HOA at the entrance and cul-de-sac. Work great.
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Hehe, how can you tell which housing goes to what camera? It isn't listed in the camera accessories section. I assume they don't all fit every camera.

I found the lenses as well... they have a 12MP compatible f/0.9 wide aperature low light lens. I wonder what the pricing looks like on those? :)
 
bigredfish said:
http://www1.dahuasecurity.com/download/accessory_selection_20170706.pdf
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Ahh... thanks. I haven't seen that chart before.

Looks like that box camera uses the HF1 shape. But, I'm not sure that helps much since the chart is a bit confusing. At first I thought the proper housings for this would be the PFH600N, PFH610V/A-IR-POE, PFH610N/V/A-IR, and PFH610N-IR-W, with the first three being most recommended, but on second glance it looks like any of the HF1 or HF2 housings can potentially work. Not sure why they don't just list the compatible options in the spec sheet for each camera body.

At least that gives me another option to consider. I expect this camera with the f/0.9 lens and a good housing will end up being out of my price range though so I'm not sure how much time its worth investigating. :)
 
I think that box camera is the HF2 form? But yeah i think any of those will fit either

I know its gonna be outta my price range, but if I had a place like yours, well, go Big or go Home right :p

Worth asking Andy for a quote. At least you're thinking right and are way ahead of most in planning.
 
After looking into the housing stuff a bit deeper, it is actually less confusing if I ignore the chart. For parity with the standard IPC I ended up with the following options:

DH-IPC-HF81230E - 12MP 1/1.7" IMX226 box camera
PLZ20C0-L - 12MP DC-Iris 7-34mm f/0.9 (5 x varifocal)
PFH610V-IR-POE - 14” vandal proof IR housing, 50/100m IR range, IP66+IK10, POE+ (<25.5W)
PFB604W - 14” housing wall mount bracket

I may pass it by Andy for fun to see what he comes back with, but I expect its going to be more expensive than any of the other cameras I have on the list. I'm curious how well it would work though... sounds amazing to me. :)
 
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Merlin93 said:
After looking into the housing stuff a bit deeper, it is actually less confusing if I ignore the chart. For parity with the standard IPC I ended up with the following options:

DH-IPC-HF81230E - 12MP 1/1.7" IMX226 box camera
PLZ20C0-L - 12MP DC-Iris 7-34mm f/0.9 (5 x varifocal)
PFH610V-IR-POE - 14” vandal proof IR housing, 50/100m IR range, IP66+IK10, POE+ (<25.5W)
PFB604W - 14” housing wall mount bracket

I may pass it by Andy for fun to see what he comes back with, but I expect its going to be more expensive than any of the other cameras I have on the list. I'm curious how well it would work though... sounds amazing to me. :)
Click to expand...
This can be a very professional system kit, can be good for using.
 
Initially@EMPIRETECANDYdidn't think he could get this stuff but he later updated me to say he could, but would have to order it all at 3-week lead time or so. I am considering doing so, since unless I'm missing something, I should be able to build a slightly better version of the IPC-HFW81230EN-Z for about the same price or maybe less. It would be IP66 instead of IP67, but would double the IR range and add a bit more focal length at the cost of more PoE power.

For about $200 more, I could build the 12MP camera I listed above, which would be superior to the IPC-HFW81230EN-Z and should be pretty close to the IPC-HFW8232E-Z in light sensitivity, except at 12MP.

12MP with Exmor R/Starvis IMX226 imager at a base 0.005Lux @ f/1.2, but using a 7-34mm f/0.9 lens instead. Going from a f/1.53 to f/1.2 brought it from 0.01Lux to 0.005 Lux (doubled.) So going from f/1.2 to f/0.9 should probably put it pretty close to 0.002. It would be a bit of a pain to set up, and would be hard to support if there were issues, but it might be worth while. I probably won't get this to start, but add it on later and potentially replace my primary camera with it if it works out as hoped.

I am going to look into it some more. It may be worth while. The big variable is the extra cost of shipping since Andy would have to drop ship everything. :)
 
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