Optiplex SFF vs Elitedesk 800 G4 SFF?

[thewolf56]

I'm looking to move my BI installation to its own dedicated computer and add many more current cameras to my setup. Looking at either an Optiplex 7060 SFF i7-8700 or Elitedesk 800 G4 SFF i7-8700 refurb from ebay. Elitedesk looks like it may be easier to add 2 3.5" HDs (if you can ever buy them again at a decent price).

Any thoughts on which is preferred? Prices seem to be comparable for that CPU, but the elitedesks I've found seem to have the Win10P license, SSD, and 16GB ram that the Optiplexs in that price range do not...

Current system
i5-9600k
16GB DDR4
Samsung 970 evo plus 500GB boot and DB
4TB WD Purple for cams
Multiple WD Reds for Media Server

Current Cams
Dahua HDW5231R-Z
Nelly's NSC-DB2
Dahua IPC-A35 (not recording as a nursery cam)
Dahua IPC=T5442T-ZE (currently used to test camera locations)

Cams are currently setup for continuous direct-to-disk recording of main stream, viewed with substream, and the 2 Dahua turrets are setup with Deepstack AI for person and vehicle detection.

My current MP/s load is 17.7 MP/s due to using substreams. Mixed-use computer (Plex, HA in VM, and BI), so want to move BI to its own with the addition of more cameras (indoors and outdoors, going to be a fun project this summer). Using h.264 intel HA for now.

Remote access is using VPN.

Deepstack analysis will ping current system to 100% CPU according to BI at times with one camera... Otherwise system is at 10-13% with Plex, BI and HA VM running.

Hoping the i7-8700 will be enough for adding more 4MP cams on the property with Deepstack AI on the outdoor ones. I'll be moving the 4TB purple over to the new system until I can get more HDDs at a reasonable price.

I know the i7-6700 would be cheaper than the 8700 for these desktops, but I know that AI takes a lot of CPU resources and buying an Nvidia GPU just for AI is not going to be feasible anytime soon.

Please let me know your thoughts. Will be starting another thread in the near future for cam placement (using the T544T-ZE on a 2x4 set in concrete in a bucket to test locations utilizing a wireless bridge with POE injection. I'm sure the HOA and neighbors love that).

 

[SouthernYankee]

I am not an expert on deepstack but i think your current system is not configured correctly.

The pass mark rating
i5-9600k is 10,828
I7-8700 is 13,075
17-6700 is 8,046


The I7-6700 is slower than your current cpu.
The i7-8700 will provide less than a 20% performance improvement. if you are a 100% cpu load, this will do absolutely nothing to solve your problem.

Work on correctly configuring your system.

 

[wittaj]

Yep, you need to make sure you are doing EVERY optimization in the wiki. Something isn't right in your setup.

Optimizing Blue Iris's CPU Usage

Blue Iris uses a lot of CPU time. In most Blue Iris installations, your CPU is the limiting factor which determines how many cameras you can have. As such, it is extremely important to optimize your configuration to ensure you can get the most out of your system while consuming the least...

ipcamtalk.com

At the moment, most of us find that the IVS and AI from Dahua is superior to the DeepStack, so unless you have a unique case and you need to see toothbrushes and toilets identified, use the AI in the Dahua cams to trigger BI for human and or vehicles.

My system is rock solid using the Dahua AI and I only use DeepStack on my dumb cameras that do not have that capability...I have way more cams than you and a 4th generation CPU and run no problems...another member here is running a 4790 with 50 cameras at sub 40% CPU...

Who uses Dahua AI capable cameras? Reliable AI for triggering events? Pro's/con's?

It has come to my attention that certain Dahua cameras come with built in AI that distinguishes between human & cars. I was unaware of this. Well, always saw the AI word used in the reviews but never really thought about it because I thought it was a Dahua NVR integration only. I am currently...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[thewolf56]

Thanks, guys, but I think there may be some confusion.

1st. I am fully aware that the 6700 is slower than my current system. I mentioned the 6700 only because I know it is about $200 cheaper for the optiplex and elitedesk PCs, but I want to make sure that the new hardware can run Deepstack and planned additional cameras without any problem. Current load is only 17.7 MP/s thanks to substreams, so not very difficult for BI, especially with Direct-to-Disk and Intel hardware acceleration (it was much more problematic when I had to figure out why QS was not staying on all the time when I first got BI, but a dummy adapter fixed that). Main reason for getting a new PC is to have blue iris on dedicated hardware. Currently runs fine on my system with no hiccups, but it should be run by itself.

2nd, my BI setup is fully optimized. According to BI Update Helper, Blue Iris only uses 4% of my CPU, but CPU Usage (Overall) spiked to 96%. System CPU is steady at 10-13% for the entire PC with BI, Plex, and HA in a VM. I never had these spikes before Deepstack. The peaks at 100% are solely when Deepstack analyzes as I can see the Python background process for it go from 0% to about 90% when it analyzes a trigger. My system also returns the Deepstack analysis in about 200ms, so based on the tutorials I have watched, that turn-around time is satisfactory. I don't think there is anything for Deepstack optimization on the wikis.

3rd, 2 of my 3 current outdoor cameras do not have AI built in, and combining the non-AI 5231's IVS intrusion rule with Deepstack has greatly reduced the number of false alerts I was getting for all sorts of motion events (birds, large leaves, huge moths at night, etc.). It works better that way than the IVS rule by itself. I will check out the 5442's AI, but when I first tried it out, I wasn't getting alerts for humans even when I walked right in front of it.

I will definitely be getting a new PC for BI within the next 2 months, but I would really like to know if the elitedesk is preferred over the optiplex. Slightly higher price, but looks like an easier addition for a 2nd 3.5" hard drive.

 

[wittaj]

If the computer has an optical drive, you can simply disconnect it to add a 2nd HDD to the unit...so since it is the same i and generation, go with the cheapest LOL.

 

[thewolf56]

If the computer has an optical drive, you can simply disconnect it to add a 2nd HDD to the unit...so since it is the same i and generation, go with the cheapest LOL.

Good point. I didn't think of that, so it may boil down to price vs. convenience if both models are fairly comparable. Aesthetics and noise won't play any part as it's going to be moved to a hidden area (my current build is practically silent thanks to the fractal designs case and noctua fans).

 

[wittaj]

One thing you could consider doing if you haven't is tightening up the motion triggers of the cameras so that not every motion is going to DeepStack.

I had mine fairly configured before DeepStack but could get an occasional false trigger from my non-AI cameras, and running those cams through DeepStack didn't appreciably tax my CPU because it is now more of a final confirmation it is a human before alerting me.

It just seems like your computer should be able to handle a few cameras using DeepStack without maxing it out.

 

[Flintstone61]

I'm running 15 Camera's on the Elitedesk 800 G4 SFF. with 24Gb ram, i5-8500, 1-8TB WD purp, 1-5TB WD-ezr-Something. 4 Amcrest 5Mp, 2-Jidetech junkers, 6 Andy Cams,,,5442, 5421 z12, 5231, and mixed bag of other stuff.
8-12% CPU. 1GB ram using Substreams. I Was running 13 of those same Cameras on an Optiplex 7010 SFF i7-3770. The Dells arent as receptive to a 2nd large Spinning disk, where as the HP is designed for it. I'd prefer dell, mainly because I have so much experience with that product line, but having a Franken-Plex with drives hanging out of it, wasnt what I wanted for the Work Security system.

 

[Flintstone61]

Fenderman, ( known around here) recommended the Elitedesk as a nice machine for BI. So after getting a look at the drive bay configuration, I decided that would be the future. Ideally would like 2-8TB WD purp. and convert some of the 12 old Analog Camera positions to IP into BI.

 

[thewolf56]

One thing you could consider doing if you haven't is tightening up the motion triggers of the cameras so that not every motion is going to DeepStack.

I had mine fairly configured before DeepStack but could get an occasional false trigger from my non-AI cameras, and running those cams through DeepStack didn't appreciably tax my CPU because it is now more of a final confirmation it is a human before alerting me.

It just seems like your computer should be able to handle a few cameras using DeepStack without maxing it out.

That's definitely one of the reasons I switched to IVS plus Deepstack on non-AI. It greatly reduced the number of triggers for Deepstack to analyze. My first test position for the 5442, I sued the settings from The Hook Up's recent BI + Deepstack tutorial, but because my pick-up is parked in the driveway, it was constantly being triggered by the tree moving in the wind, Deepstack would see it was a car, then determine it was occupied and not send an alert. It did what it was supposed to do, but the constant motion was constantly triggering. When I switched to IVS to trigger, it only fired the analysis when it really should be fired.

I'm running 15 Camera's on the Elitedesk 800 G4 SFF. with 24Gb ram, i5-8500, 1-8TB WD purp, 1-5TB WD-ezr-Something. 4 Amcrest 5Mp, 2-Jidetech junkers, 6 Andy Cams,,,5442, 5421 z12, 5231, and mixed bag of other stuff.
8-12% CPU. 1GB ram using Substreams. I Was running 13 of those same Cameras on an Optiplex 7010 SFF i7-3770. The Dells arent as receptive to a 2nd large Spinning disk, where as the HP is designed for it. I'd prefer dell, mainly because I have so much experience with that product line, but having a Franken-Plex with drives hanging out of it, wasnt what I wanted for the Work Security system.

Thanks for the notes on your experience. Good to know that it is working for you. I've seen Fenderman recommend the optiplex and the elitedesk for a long time, so that's why I had narrowed it down to those models.

 

[Flintstone61]

and furthermore.... .....I know if you search ebay, you can probably find a dell 5.25 Bay to 3.5 HDD adapter, that may go in "tooless" to a SFF Optiplex, BUT if they squeezed the Laptop style DVD drive in their on the 7060 then it's gonna get unsightly. even Dells (MT) Mini-tower form factor that I bought for my buddy,(Dell Optiplex 3050 MT.) had only room for 1 3.5 Spinner. and 1-2.5" Bay, and 2 onboard receptacles for NVME or m.2 drives. They really shrunk the MT formfactor at dell. my old 9020 MT can handle 3 3.5" HDD's and has 4 SATA ports on board.

 

[thewolf56]

and furthermore.... .....I know if you search ebay, you can probably find a dell 5.25 Bay to 3.5 HDD adapter, that may go in "tooless" to a SFF Optiplex, BUT if they squeezed the Laptop style DVD drive in their on the 7060 then it's gonna get unsightly. even Dells (MT) Mini-tower form factor that I bought for my buddy,(Dell Optiplex 3050 MT.) had only room for 1 3.5 Spinner. and 1-2.5" Bay, and 2 onboard receptacles for NVME or m.2 drives. They really shrunk the MT formfactor at dell. my old 9020 MT can handle 3 3.5" HDD's and has 4 SATA ports on board.

Thanks @Flintstone61 I've built all but 1of my non-laptop PCs in the past 26 years, so I have little experience with using proprietary chassis designs and have relied on service manuals for trying to determine the HDD capacities. Your experience seems to reinforce my thoughts after looking at them, that the Elitedesk 800 G4 would be easier to add a 2nd HDD. Looks like it may be possible to add a 3rd if using a nvme boot drive, but often enough. motherboards disable an SATA port if using the nvme slot. I'm pretty sure 2 HDDS are all I will need on the BI PC as the storage clips will be moved to my other PC for longer term storage (I think I still have 6 3.5" slots open for it).