Performance and feature questions

[warrenisarobot]

I got a Lorex 6 camera (4k) kit from costco, and am realizing both that i don't like the included NVR and that these don't support ONVIF. Motion detection has to come from the software (the bundled NVR uses their proprietary API for camera hardware motion detection) so I'm trying to reduce CPU usage as much as possible. I'm running BI in a VM inside FreeNAS, right now allocating 4 cores.

I am testing with 4 of the cameras on the demo BI version. When i firsy set them up with the 4k stream it was using a significant amount of CPU (about 80%) If i used the option to only decode when necessary it went down to around 15%, but motion detection was poor. I now understand this option to only use iframes, so this makes sense.

The cameras have 2 streams, 1 high res and one 720p stream. I changed it so that i have a camera for the high res stream ina group with no motion, and another for the low res stream that doesnt record but triggers that single camera high res group. This has reduced CPU significantly and is in the 10%-15% range. Motion is working well so far.

Is there a better way to do this, or is this the best way to still have motion detection and lower cpu usage?

Second question: when the streams record CPU spikes hard, more than 80% when recording the 4 streams. Dirwct to disk is on. If the client is open it hits 100%. Is this normal? Someone said that direct to disk doesnt work when in the demo. Is that true?

Lastly: what does the mobile app let you do? I dont see a demo version. I would like to be able to be notified of alerts, see live cams, and see motion recordings.

I do wish i didn't have to remote in to the server to see recordings - the web interface seems pretty limited. However, from the other options I've tried this is pretty full featured.

 

[fenderman]

I got a Lorex 6 camera (4k) kit from costco, and am realizing both that i don't like the included NVR and that these don't support ONVIF. Motion detection has to come from the software (the bundled NVR uses their proprietary API for camera hardware motion detection) so I'm trying to reduce CPU usage as much as possible. I'm running BI in a VM inside FreeNAS, right now allocating 4 cores.

I am testing with 4 of the cameras on the demo BI version. When i firsy set them up with the 4k stream it was using a significant amount of CPU (about 80%) If i used the option to only decode when necessary it went down to around 15%, but motion detection was poor. I now understand this option to only use iframes, so this makes sense.

The cameras have 2 streams, 1 high res and one 720p stream. I changed it so that i have a camera for the high res stream ina group with no motion, and another for the low res stream that doesnt record but triggers that single camera high res group. This has reduced CPU significantly and is in the 10%-15% range. Motion is working well so far.

Is there a better way to do this, or is this the best way to still have motion detection and lower cpu usage?

Second question: when the streams record CPU spikes hard, more than 80% when recording the 4 streams. Dirwct to disk is on. If the client is open it hits 100%. Is this normal? Someone said that direct to disk doesnt work when in the demo. Is that true?

Lastly: what does the mobile app let you do? I dont see a demo version. I would like to be able to be notified of alerts, see live cams, and see motion recordings.

I do wish i didn't have to remote in to the server to see recordings - the web interface seems pretty limited. However, from the other options I've tried this is pretty full featured.

the demo version does not support direct to disk which is a must for reduced cpu...not sure it supports hardware acceleration either...
you dont state your frame rate or the processor you are using....
Optimizing Blue Iris's CPU Usage | IP Cam Talk
there is no demo of the mobile app...it lets you do all of that plus more, change profiles, enable/disable cams, traffic signal, etc

 

[warrenisarobot]

I'm running a E3 xeon 1230 v5, so no Quicksync.

At both streams (4k and 720p) cams are at 15fps.


Thanks for the link!

 

[looney2ns]

Choosing Hardware for Blue Iris | IP Cam Talk

 

[warrenisarobot]

Choosing Hardware for Blue Iris | IP Cam Talk

I dont think i need help with hardware selection, but to make sure I'm optimizing correctly. I'm not sure if using motion detection on a lower res stream and recording thr high res is common practice, or if there is an easier way to do it.

 

[mat200]

I got a Lorex 6 camera (4k) kit from costco, and am realizing both that i don't like the included NVR and that these don't support ONVIF. ...

FYI - from what I looked at they do support ONVIF

 

[warrenisarobot]

FYI - from what I looked at they do support ONVIF

The box doesn't say the cameras do. The Lorex PDFs showing the camera specs do not list ONVF support either. I checked the Lorex website and they only mention ONVIF support for the NVR, not the cameras. I thought for sure they would support ONVIF, but nothing can detect them as ONVIF. Trying the /onvif/device_service URL on the cameras give a 404.

The camera config looks like it has not fully complete ONVIF support. It has an option to enable or disable ONVIF auth, but there is nothing else showing ONVIF support. From Dahua screenshots I should see an ONVIF version number in the info section, but ONVIF is just not listed.

Lorex support only cares about the NVR having ONVIF support and aren't understanding the cameras need it too. There are no Lorex camera firmware updates for any of their cameras either from what I can see, so I don't have high hopes for that to be added.

Can you show me what you were looking at that listed them as having ONVIF support? I hope it's just me doing something wrong.

 

[mat200]

The box doesn't say the cameras do. The Lorex PDFs showing the camera specs do not list ONVF support either. I checked the Lorex website and they only mention ONVIF support for the NVR, not the cameras. I thought for sure they would support ONVIF, but nothing can detect them as ONVIF. Trying the /onvif/device_service URL on the cameras give a 404.

The camera config looks like it has not fully complete ONVIF support. It has an option to enable or disable ONVIF auth, but there is nothing else showing ONVIF support. From Dahua screenshots I should see an ONVIF version number in the info section, but ONVIF is just not listed.

Lorex support only cares about the NVR having ONVIF support and aren't understanding the cameras need it too. There are no Lorex camera firmware updates for any of their cameras either from what I can see, so I don't have high hopes for that to be added.

Can you show me what you were looking at that listed them as having ONVIF support? I hope it's just me doing something wrong.

Hi Warren,

Those are based on Dahua OEM cameras which are ONVIF conformant ( Profile S ).

Lorex appears to not want to pay the fee for conformant testing of the cameras, thus they can not publish the product as being ONVIF conformant.

You can search the ONVIF database for a list of products which have gone through and been approved regarding conformance testing.
Conformant Products - ONVIF

 

[fenderman]

I'm running a E3 xeon 1230 v5, so no Quicksync.

At both streams (4k and 720p) cams are at 15fps.


Thanks for the link!

that cpu should still be able to handle your load even without quicksync....there is only one way to find out. There is a limit decoding option that will significantly reduce consumption but comes with tradeoffs, see help file, release notes and threads...

 

[warrenisarobot]

that cpu should still be able to handle your load even without quicksync....there is only one way to find out. There is a limit decoding option that will significantly reduce consumption but comes with tradeoffs, see help file, release notes and threads...

Limit decoding made a significant difference, but like the help file said it missed some fast motion detection. Not sure it's a big deal though.

Having a camera for each stream (1 for high res, 1 for low res) in blue iris is working really well for motion detect so far, but I wish there were a way to use a different RTSP path for motion detection vs recording so I didn't have to have double the cameras in BI for each physical camera.

Thanks for the info about the mobile app. The Blue Iris site doesn't have much in the way of documentation so I appreciate the help.

Hi Warren,

Those are based on Dahua OEM cameras which are ONVIF conformant ( Profile S ).

Lorex appears to not want to pay the fee for conformant testing of the cameras, thus they can not publish the product as being ONVIF conformant.

You can search the ONVIF database for a list of products which have gone through and been approved regarding conformance testing.
Conformant Products - ONVIF

These do look like Dahua OEMs, but they are definitely not ONVIF compliant. I assuming they were able to license the cameras cheaper by not including that feature. None of the Dahua firmwares with similar specs (none of the Dahuas have matching specs) work on the cameras either.

The NVR included with the package is ONVIF compliant, though. I can get it to reply to ONVIF requests, however the cameras do not.

 

[fenderman]

Limit decoding made a significant difference, but like the help file said it missed some fast motion detection. Not sure it's a big deal though.

Having a camera for each stream (1 for high res, 1 for low res) in blue iris is working really well for motion detect so far, but I wish there were a way to use a different RTSP path for motion detection vs recording so I didn't have to have double the cameras in BI for each physical camera.

Thanks for the info about the mobile app. The Blue Iris site doesn't have much in the way of documentation so I appreciate the help.




These do look like Dahua OEMs, but they are definitely not ONVIF compliant. I assuming they were able to license the cameras cheaper by not including that feature. None of the Dahua firmwares with similar specs (none of the Dahuas have matching specs) work on the cameras either.

The NVR included with the package is ONVIF compliant, though. I can get it to reply to ONVIF requests, however the cameras do not.

the help files is all the documentation you need...once you enter the license code the cpu usage will drop significantly and you wont need limit decoding...
you dont have to have double the cams...you can use a single high res feed for both motion detection and recording - ensure you have entered the license and that you did not select high def in the motion settings....doing it your way actually uses more cpu...also note you can hide the duplicate cams from the screen and in the mobile app...

 

[mat200]

These do look like Dahua OEMs, but they are definitely not ONVIF compliant. I assuming they were able to license the cameras cheaper by not including that feature. None of the Dahua firmwares with similar specs (none of the Dahuas have matching specs) work on the cameras either.

The NVR included with the package is ONVIF compliant, though. I can get it to reply to ONVIF requests, however the cameras do not.

Hi Warrenisabot

Which ONVIF level are you testing for? and how are you testing?

Remember ONVIF does have multiple versions.

There's too much work to keep code bases separate - far easier for Dahua and partners to keep as much of the code base in as few branches as possible.

 

[warrenisarobot]

the help files is all the documentation you need...once you enter the license code the cpu usage will drop significantly and you wont need limit decoding...
you dont have to have double the cams...you can use a single high res feed for both motion detection and recording - ensure you have entered the license and that you did not select high def in the motion settings....doing it your way actually uses more cpu...also note you can hide the duplicate cams from the screen and in the mobile app...

Ok, I didn't realize a lot of these features are disabled until a license code is used. The high def checkbox was unchecked, and using 2 separate steams it this way used less CPU than using just the single high def stream with the checkbox unchecked. It's probably because I'm on the demo version then.

Hi Warrenisabot

Which ONVIF level are you testing for? and how are you testing?

Remember ONVIF does have multiple versions.

There's too much work to keep code bases separate - far easier for Dahua and partners to keep as much of the code base in as few branches as possible.

For NVR software I've tried Blue Iris, Bluecherry, Zoneminder, Milestone and Shinobi to see if the cameras would respond to ONVIF. The easiest way I've found to test is using the program ONVIF Device Manager .

Like you said there are different profiles, but the devices have an "end point" that you contact (like a URL) to list supported features. This just doesn't respond at all for any of these particular Lorex cameras. The NVR that came with the kit does respond to ONVIF requests, though.

I know it's weird that the feature wouldn't be included, and yes it would be "easier" to not include those features, but there are many cases where resellers want things really cheap and are willing to sacrifice features for the cheaper version. It would definitely be easier for Microsfot to not have Home and Pro versions of windows, but we like having two difference price points for the OS so they keep doing it. One of the reasons I bought this kit is because I thought the cameras were Dahuas and assumed it meant it came with what most Dahuas do. I'm sure Lorex doesn't care for cameras on this kit, it comes with an NVR so why would they need to have all the same functionality with 3rd party software?

 

[mat200]

Hi Warrenisabot,

So a big part of the base ONVIF profile S is that the camera provide a rtsp feed ...which that particular camera does...

Yet it did not respond to a probe... wonder what's going on with that, is there a service which is disabled? Would be nice to SSH in and see..

I did noticed that Lorex is not listed as a member, however it's "parent" FLIR is. ( only members can submit ONVIF conformant documentation to ONVIF.org )
Member List - ONVIF

UPDATE:
Warren, can you access the camera's interface?
Here's the info on how to turn ONVIF on for a Dahua OEM camera:
( perhaps this part also works in the Lorex Re-brand - or maybe they buried it deeper? )

Troubleshoot/What Is ONVIF - Dahua Wiki

 

[warrenisarobot]

Hi Warrenisabot,

So a big part of the base ONVIF profile S is that the camera provide a rtsp feed ...which that particular camera does...

Yet it did not respond to a probe... wonder what's going on with that, is there a service which is disabled? Would be nice to SSH in and see..

I did noticed that Lorex is not listed as a member, however it's "parent" FLIR is. ( only members can submit ONVIF conformant documentation to ONVIF.org )
Member List - ONVIF

UPDATE:
Warren, can you access the camera's interface?
Here's the info on how to turn ONVIF on for a Dahua OEM camera:
( perhaps this part also works in the Lorex Re-brand - or maybe they buried it deeper? )

Troubleshoot/What Is ONVIF - Dahua Wiki

Yeah it is interesting how Lorex isn't listed at all.

I followed those steps, but in step 1 where it would normally show the ONVIF version that line is just completely missing. Also the default port for SSH rejects connections. Do Dahuas run SSH on a non-standard port?

The cameras are pretty good, and 6 4k cams for $800 end up being $133 a piece with a free NVR, but they definitiely do seem stripped down.

I put a screenshot here:

 

[mat200]

Hi Warren,

Not certain about SSH on these, I would hope that is possible to configure somehow.. iirc you used to be able to telnet in - however updates have closed that.. lol, funny to think this is actually a recent firmware update

( BTW - the last 2 images display as broken for me... )

 

[warrenisarobot]

Hi Warren,

Not certain about SSH on these, I would hope that is possible to configure somehow.. iirc you used to be able to telnet in - however updates have closed that.. lol, funny to think this is actually a recent firmware update

( BTW - the last 2 images display as broken for me... )

Yeah it seems stupid that some of it is left in (Setup -> Network -> Connection has the ONVIF authentication settings) but it's like it's not fully implemented. I've checked these menus so many times I can't count, it's driving me crazy. Lorex support is only concerned with the included NVR supporting ONVIF as well.

Trying to decide if I should keep them, or return them and get something from a vendor like Andy instead.

 

[mat200]

Yeah it seems stupid that some of it is left in (Setup -> Network -> Connection has the ONVIF authentication settings) but it's like it's not fully implemented. I've checked these menus so many times I can't count, it's driving me crazy. Lorex support is only concerned with the included NVR supporting ONVIF as well.

Trying to decide if I should keep them, or return them and get something from a vendor like Andy instead.

Hi Warren

Is the IVS features available in these Lorex cameras? Or did Lorex also strip those from the Dahua OEM firmware? ( I have read that they stripped it from the NVRs )

Looks like Q-see is leaving the IVS features in, just relabeling it as IVA. ( they have a 12x camera kit onsale at Costco right now, about the same price per camera as the $800 kit.... )

I wonder what Dahua OEM firmware would work for those Lorex cameras - would be nice to see if we can reflash the camera with the OEM firmware.

 

[warrenisarobot]

Hi Warren

Is the IVS features available in these Lorex cameras? Or did Lorex also strip those from the Dahua OEM firmware? ( I have read that they stripped it from the NVRs )

Looks like Q-see is leaving the IVS features in, just relabeling it as IVA. ( they have a 12x camera kit onsale at Costco right now, about the same price per camera as the $800 kit.... )

I wonder what Dahua OEM firmware would work for those Lorex cameras - would be nice to see if we can reflash the camera with the OEM firmware.

The IVS features aren't available on the cameras, and like you said it isn't shown on the NVR either.

I tried the firmware for the ipc-hfw4830e which seemed very similar, but it just stays at a couple of bars for the upload progress (web interface). If I use the dahua management tool to try to upload them it says it is an invalid firmware for the device. I did try a few other firmwares earlier, but was unsuccessful