Please explain MP for ultra low Lux situations

Medium-Jim

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So upon joining I’ve already asked a lot of dumb stuff. I’ve also read cliff notes and wiki and taken it upon myself to read various articles about cameras, sensors and settings. I’m not saying I’ve retained/understand everything but I doing my best so...

According to this forum, MP is overhyped and your ideally looking for lower mega pixels for low light or very low lux situations. I’m looking for reasoning or clearification as to why as most of what Ive studied seems to disagree with this statement OR it’s highly possible or probable that I’m confused.
Anyways it seems that for example if I’m looking to record the night sky I’m looking for a very high MP camera with a large CMOS or CCD sensor with fast Frame rates and longer exposure times.
If a mega pixel=1 million pixels then I have more opportunity or areas to collect Photons. These photons are collected by the sensor and converted to a digital signal. More pixels = more values to Represent the light intensity from black to white. It seems that MP is correlated to bits. As the A/D converter changes the analog photon signal to digital in the CCD or CMOS then more bits also equals more values to represent light intensity ( bit depth ).
-Basically a set number of Photons, hitting a pixel during an exposure time, creates X number of electrons forming a charge, which is amplified, then converted to digital signal, which results in a grey value. It would seem that more pixels and more bits = better light collection when talking about Lux values under 1? what am I missing here?

as far as fast frame rates it would seem that each “sample” is more of an opportunity to collect said light. Also with longer exposure times the sensor allows more time to fill the pixel wells with photons. Now I understand that longer exposure times will negatively effect frame rates but IDEALLY you would want very fast frame rates and long exposure times....?
I am aware that motion blur or SNR goes up with long exposure times due to a variety of factors but is there a generally accepted preference? Ie frame rates over exposure times or vice versa?

I was told that I’m looking for a camera with a 1/1.8 sensor but wouldnt an even bigger sensor be even better? And wouldn’t I want the biggest lens I could get? I.e. 35mm? I don’t understand why a smaller lens gives a broader field of vision. If that’s true then I want like a 2mm lens? It seems counter intuitive?

finally would a software system such as blue iris play or be compatible with a movement tracking software like VISDAT, MetRec, or UFOCapture? I would think of these systems as the base program and something like blue iris as the UI?

thanks ahead of time!
 

bigredfish

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More MP on same size sensor = smaller pixels. Smaller pixels = less light they allow through.
Less MP, Bigger pixels, More light allowed through, brighter image.

For watching slow moving objects like stars at a gazzillion miles, longer (slower) exposure allows more collected light = good
For fast moving people/vehicles at 30ft, faster shutter freezes motion and reduces blur= good

Yes a bigger sensor would in theory be better. They however get pricey.

Framerate is how many frames (pictures) are taken in a given time (second). In theory the subject looks the same at 5 or 30 FPS in a still image (1 picture), but when you put all those pictures together to make a "video" your eye can detect that there are some pictures missing at 5FPS, but it looks like a smooth video at 30FPS.

Bigger # mm lens = point of focus is further out, but smaller FOV
Smaller #mm lens= closer point of focus, much wider FOV

Now maybe we're all wrong but I have hours of video to prove otherwise.
 

Medium-Jim

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if you’ll notice I used many question marks meaning that I’m not saying anybody is wrong but simply trying to understand.
please don’t take it that way! I’m here to learn from far more knowledgeable and experienced people than me that have paved the way through trials
 

Medium-Jim

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If I’m just looking to capture potential UFOs, meteorites, planes, satellite, etc in the night sky they would more or less just be lights so do I really need a narrow focus? I don’t think I could actually focus on said object but rather capture the general path of the light? Does it make sense to get a large FOV ( larger lens ) and not worry about the focus aspect?
 

bigredfish

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No worries, and I said that tongue in cheek. And Welcome :wave:

Spend some time and look around at the various reviews and tests of cameras here. We say "dont chase MP" because while an 8MP could produce a better image than a 2MP camera if the sensor was big enough, in reality, due I think primarily to cost, what you find (at similar price point ranges) the same sensor used for both. The smaller MP usually wins hands down

And because we all are more concerned with low light image (its harder because there's less light) we prefer the camera that captures the most light while still being able to freeze the image (exposure) with the least amount of blur.

Daytime a case can be made for more MP/same sensor because there's so much damn light, any cheap camera frankly will do well.
 

Medium-Jim

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that makes sense. I’ve been reading in between obligations as much as possible but the more I read the more questions I have lol.
based on my criteria can you recommend a camera or 2 so I can look at them and force myself to dissect its specs?
also does anybody here do astrophototography or night sky viewing? I’d LOVE to see some images
 

Medium-Jim

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I see. I’d want the 3.6mm for my application. Thank you
also your neighborhoods grass looks pretty nice for Florida heat :)
 

Medium-Jim

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I read that post, thank you. I copy/pasted that camera into google and found this. this is VERY similar to what I’m wanting to do.
I don’t know ANYTHING about How to time lapse but id be happy doing a live feed or time lapse either way

according to google that camera is very reasonably priced. Any idea how Much a running system would cost Like this?
 

aristobrat

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I read that post, thank you. I copy/pasted that camera into google and found this. this is VERY similar to what I’m wanting to do.
I don’t know ANYTHING about How to time lapse but id be happy doing a live feed or time lapse either way

according to google that camera is very reasonably priced. Any idea how Much a running system would cost Like this?
Oh cool, that YouTube video in your link is from @wopi82, a forum member here who's contributed some great info like the link below:
Common issues with camera image | IP Cam Talk

The camera in that video is an older Full Color model that uses a 2MP 1/2.8" image sensor with a f1.0 lens. I saw a listing on Amazon (from a seller I'm not familiar with) for $129.

@bigredfish did a review of a newer Full Color model. It uses a 4MP 1/1.8" image sensor and also has a f1.0 lens. Bigger sensor, more MP, similar low-light image quality.
https://ipcamtalk.com/threads/review-oem-ipc-b5442t-ase-ni-4mp-pro-ai-full-color-fixed-focal-bullet.49801/
 
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Here is his review of that cam.

 
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Also see this thread, though it is a little old

 

Medium-Jim

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I was reading the cliff notes section and came across Dahua Auto tracking cameras...wow.
So looping back to stupid super basic questions-
Assuming I purchased an auto tracking Dahua, from what I’m reading is that the function is built into the camera and a normal Dahua NVR can handle it, I’m assuming I don’t need to run blue iris or a separate tracking software?
I’m beginning to think maybe it may be more cost effective to run 2 separate systems?
Basically a dedicated NVR and camera or cameras for night sky and another separate one for general ( more traditional ) camera setup for home surveillance?

Is there any auto tracking single cameras and compatible NVR for tracking the night sky for about 500$ or am I starting in the 1000 dollar range all day long? obviously the availability to add cameras over time if I chose to would effect this budget but I’m talking initially just to get my feet wet and accomplish what I’m trying to do. I learn better being hands-on and with me things start small and balloon from there as I assume many others people as well.
 
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