PTZ or 180 degree wide angle?

TobiasF

Young grasshopper
Nov 10, 2024
48
6
Germany
Hello,

I need some help to select the best camera type for my application.

I want to observe the backyard of my apartment of about 10 m width and 9 m depth marked in red. The yellow marked area in front of the wall I want to be able to see. In blue I marked the area where people can enter.
In a perfect set-up I would install a camera at both ends of the building wall. Unfortunately, this is not so easy to realize for me to get cables there. But I easily can one in the centre (marked with red cross) in a hight up to 2,80 m.

A PTZ can reach the yellow area, but due to the "standard lens angle" it will have blind sports for detection.
A 180 degree camera will capture the complete area where someone can enter but it will have a blind spot near to the building wall with windows and doors.

Any suggestions?

obersavation field.png
 
Is there any free software where I can simulate the detection zones for different focal lengths and camera positions?
I only found paid software.
 
I found IP Video System Design Tool and with the trial version I could get a good impression about my situation.

Now it is more clear to me:
  • One camera does not help at all. I need tow
  • Even having two cameras at the center position is too far away from the configuration I am willing to compromise with.

Too bad. Now I have to skip my temporarily solution and work on to get wires to the corners.


As long I can think about some fine tuning of my set-up: To go with around 90° or around 70° lense?
 
You may try one of the PTZ's that have dual lens. Here is the one I have in mind.1731362002329.pngThis one will have a 180 degree camera on top to be use as a general overview camera. The PTZ could be used to get a more detailed shot. What it could also do is have the top 180 degree camera trigger the PTZ to turn in that direction and follow the object. The PTZ itself has auto tracking so following cars/people are no problem.
 
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or this small one, around 130USD
View attachment 207074
4MP 4x Starlight WizSense Network PTZ Camera
1/2.8" CMOS.
Powerful 4x optical zoom.
Max.25/30fps@4M/3M.
Max 100°/s pan speed.
Supports face detection.
Support PoE.
IP66, IK10.
SMD 3.0.
6000V lightning-proof.
View attachment 207075

Really? A 4MP on 1/2.8" sensor DOME outside? A camera without infrared or white light? In addition to a Dome outside not recommended, it will be blind at night.
 
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or this small one, around 130USD
View attachment 207074
4MP 4x Starlight WizSense Network PTZ Camera
1/2.8" CMOS.
Powerful 4x optical zoom.
Max.25/30fps@4M/3M.
Max 100°/s pan speed.
Supports face detection.
Support PoE.
IP66, IK10.
SMD 3.0.
6000V lightning-proof.
View attachment 207075
That's NOT a good camera....I wouldn't recommend it to my worst enemy.

What are you doing? :wtf:
 
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so you can only install one camera? How about this one. around 160USD

View attachment 207072

4MP 5x Smart Dual Light WizSense Network PTZ Camera
1/2.8" 4Megapixel CMOS.
5x optical zoom.
Max. 25/30fps@4MP.
IR distance up to 50m.
Warm light illumination distance up to 30 m.
Built-in Mic and Speaker for Two-way Talk.
Perimeter protection.
SMD 3.0.
12 VDC/PoE power supply.
IP66.

This still suffers from the camera will be looking one way and a perp comes from the other AND it cannot capture the patio and rear of the backyard at the same time. And it is on a less than ideal MP/sensor ratio.
 
You may try one of the PTZ's that have dual lens. Here is the one I have in mind.This one will have a 180 degree camera on top to be use as a general overview camera. The PTZ could be used to get a more detailed shot. What it could also do is have the top 180 degree camera trigger the PTZ to turn in that direction and follow the object. The PTZ itself has auto tracking so following cars/people are no problem.

Yes, this also sounds like a good idea. This proposal with a combined 180° camera will address the issue with the blind spot of the PTZ.

The proposed device seems to be a little bit over spec: 3 km detection range and 200 m IR range. I only want to cover a 10 m x 10 m area.
I could count the ants on the ground with this device. :)

Also a little bit outside of the budget. But in principle I like the concept of a PTZ for my application. A massive device, that is blinking, showing to outside that it is active and making motion noise when tracking someone. A dummy doing this already would satisfy 90% of my needs to scare potential intruders.
 
Why You don't install 180 cam on the building, in place of big red X?

This is the question I was asking in my initial post. :-)

To summarize the options, that I have on the table:
  • 180°
  • PTZ
  • Combined PTZ + 180°
  • two bullet in the center
  • two bullet at the corners
 
This is the question I was asking in my initial post. :-)

To summarize the options, that I have on the table:
  • 180°
  • PTZ
  • Combined PTZ + 180°
  • two bullet in the center
  • two bullet at the corners

Normally (95% installations) for front or back of the house I use 2x turret (under soffit) overview (usually 3.6mm 90 degree, sometimes 2.8mm 110 degree) cams on each side of house...
plus usually one camera for each side of building...

they look at house (doors, windows) and area in front of that side of house...
they give nice overview image but people at distance (like 10 meters) can be problematic for identification...

If there is some exit (entrance, gate etc) usually I mount third camera with STRONG OPTICAL ZOOM, which covers only entrance/gate to catch huge / very visible in details human / faces / vehicles / plates sharp images..
I sent You in different thread about AI demonstration what camera with telephoto optics directed into street from building can do...

this is best solution most good installers use..

180 degree camera is solution which I use only on very long walls in middle where I have in that place cable..
image from 180 degrees cams are distorted.. also there is no 180degree cams with normal IR light (only white light one which don't see IR).

PTZ is no good solution for small area like 10x10 meters..
max angle on PTZ is only 60 degrees and they have big problems with recording people/objects at distances lower that 2 meters..

You use PTZ if You have big plot / area in acres size...
Or want cover public street with cars at longer distances...
 
Normally (95% installations) for front or back of the house I use 2x turret (under soffit) overview (usually 3.6mm 90 degree, sometimes 2.8mm 110 degree) cams on each side of house...
plus usually one camera for each side of building...

Thank you.
This narrows down the choices to a clear direction: two cams with "normal" view angle of about 90°.
 
^^^^^
+! to what Steve said. I go with one on each corner, overview crossing typically and then fill in with a specialty camera for any choke points where I need/want tight facial ID

Same thing on driveways, crossing cameras each corner
 
Update

Finally I decided to go with two zoom cameras as I was not sure if my idea of 3.6 mm / 89° is the best one. Currently I set the Dahua IPC-HDW5442T-ZE / EmpireTech IPC-T54IR-ZE-S3 to zoom set point of 807. Acc. the focal lens calculator this should be equivalent to 6.0 mm. Luckily I did not go with the 3,6 mm fixed lens as intended before. Looking on the pictures 6 mm seems to be quite right.

Or did I used the focal lens calculator in a wrong way and just get wrong values?

cam.png
 
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That is a big reason why we recommend the varifocal!

But you will find there is no real comparison between the focal lengths of these cameras and "real" cameras or other brands of cameras either.

Heck even taking the 5442 6mm fixed lens and setting up the 5442-ZE to the equivalent 6mm and you will find the field of view is different for both. The 5442-ZE had to be set to a 9mm equivalent to get the same field of view as the 5442 6mm fixed lens.

So I think a fixed lens 6mm would be an even tighter view than you have there.

You can see a member here demonstrated this:

 
You can see a member here demonstrated this:

Picking nits while I have the time today, that comparison thread result was invalid. He transferred a zoom setting from a 5231 to a 5442 and expected the FOV to the the same. Except the two have different sensor sizes, making the FOV different at the same zoom setting. I don't disagree at all with using varifocals, and I don't use any 5442 varifocals only because the previous generation IPS was blind to animals. Most of my cameras are fixed focal 5442s and I do like the smaller size. For FOV planning, using stone-age cardboard cutouts based on the camera specs has never failed me.
 
So I think a fixed lens 6mm would be an even tighter view than you have there.

Thank you. Impact of sensor size I know.
And tighter view of the 6 mm fixed focal lens is what I would have expected.

For FOV planning, using stone-age cardboard cutouts based on the camera specs has never failed me.

Basically this is what I did first and then used the software m. a. to come to the same results.
And when playing around with the zoom of varifocal camera I was confused.