Question whether the dahua camera/NVR combination works for "AI by recorder" and good "night vision"?

[Beckmec]

Hello everyone,
I am planning a surveillance system for my semi-detached house and am hoping for your expertise. Here is an overview of my ideas:

The property:

• Semi-detached house (left side)
• Dimensions: 7m wide, 11m deep
• Garage: approx. 6.5m long, 3m wide, detached from the house

Planned surveillance (see also sketch):

• Front:
  • Right corner: camera perspective to the left, Monitoring of the entrance area (10m x 4.5m)
• Left of the house:
  • Left corner: Camera perspective backwards towards the garage, Monitoring of the area in front of the garage (4.5m x 7m)
• Back:
  • Right corner: camera perspective to the left, Monitoring of the terrace/garden (7m x 9m)

The area in front of the house and next to the house is never completely dark due to street lighting. In the garden there could be very dark areas due to the hedge around the garden, but this could be compensated for by garden lighting.

Hardware selection:

• NVR: DHI-NVR5216-16P-XI

NVR5216-16P-XI - Dahua International

NVR5216-16P-XI

www.dahuasecurity.com

​

IPC-HFW3449T1-AS-PV-PRO
4MP Smart Dual Light Active Deterrence Fixed-focal Bullet WizSense Network Camera​

> 4-MP 1/1.8" CMOS image sensor, low luminance, and high definition image.​

> Outputs max. 4 MP (2688 × 1520)@25/30 fps.​

> H.265 codec, high compression rate, ultra-low bit rate.​

> Built-in multi-core light, the max. IR distance is 50 m and the max. warm light distance is 50 m​

> ROI, SMART H.264+/H.265+, AI H.264/H.265, flexible coding, applicable to various bandwidth and storage environments.​

> Rotation mode, WDR, 3D NR, HLC, BLC, digital watermarking, applicable to various monitoring scenes.​

> Intelligent monitoring: Intrusion, tripwire (the two function support the classification and accurate detection of vehicle and human)​

> Abnormality detection: Motion detection, privacy masking, scene changing, audio detection, no SD card, SD card full, SD card error, network disconnection, IP conflict, illegal access, and voltage detection.​

> Alarm: 1 in, 1 out; audio: 1 in, 1 out; supports max. 512G Micro SD card; built-in dual MICs; 1-ch speaker; support two-way talk.​

> 12VDC/PoE power supply.​

> IP67 protection.​

> Sound and light alarm (red and blue lights).​

> SMD 4.0.​

> Supports AI SSA and one-tap arming and disarming.​

> SMD area can be set in warm light areas that support triggering alarms.​

• Cameras: DH-IPC-HFW3449T1-AS-PV-PRO (3 pieces planned)

https://www.dahuasecurity.com/products/All-Products/Network-Cameras/WizSense-Series/3-Series/TiOC/IPC-HFW3449T1-AS-PV-PRO

NVR5216-16P-XI​

16CH 1U 16POE 2HDDs WizMind Network Video Recorder​

> Supports Smart H.265+, H.265, Smart H.264+, H.264 and MJPEG decoding formats.​

> Max. decoding capability: 32 × 1080p@30 fps​

> Max. 512/512/512 Mbps incoming/recording/outgoing bandwidth.​

> Supports IP cameras with a resolution up to 32 MP.​

> Supports AcuPick with up to 16 channels.​

> AI by Recorder supports 8-channel face detection and recognition, up to 20 face databases and 200,000 face images; 8-channel metadata; 16-channel perimeter protection; 16-channel SMD Plus.​

> AI by Camera supports face detection and recognition, perimeter protection, SMD Plus, metadata, ANPR, stereo analysis, heat map, and people counting.​

> Supports N+M cluster, ISCSI.​

> Supports EPTZ, and one-click arming and disarming.​

Requirements:

• Image quality: Good full-color image quality at night, good quality for facial recognition (via NVR)
• Metadata: Capture of metadata (people, vehicles) via the NVR
• POE: Power supply via Ethernet
• Additional functions: Whitelist/blacklist for faces, alarm, optional POE spotlights

Installation:

• On the roof rafters at a height of approx. 3m, 40cm from the wall

My questions:

• Sufficient number of cameras: Is the planned number of 3 cameras sufficient for comprehensive surveillance?
• Metadata: Can the NVR reliably capture the desired metadata (people, vehicles)? Can i use AI by Recorder (perimeter protection, face detection and recognition, SMD plus)?
• Additional functions: Can whitelist/blacklist, alarm and POE spotlights be implemented with this configuration?
• Compatibility: Does the combination of NVR and cameras fit well together?

I look forward to your feedback and suggestions!

Many Thanks

 

[bigredfish]

My questions:

• Sufficient number of cameras: Is the planned number of 3 cameras sufficient for comprehensive surveillance? IMHO No. You need 2X the number of cameras. Those cameras are fixed lens and only good for ID to about 5M
• Metadata: Can the NVR reliably capture the desired metadata (people, vehicles)? Can i use AI by Recorder (perimeter protection, face detection and recognition, SMD plus)? In theory yes, but typically you will get better results using AI on the camera. Use AI by recorder to supplement the camera functions where you want two AI functions
• Additional functions: Can whitelist/blacklist, alarm and POE spotlights be implemented with this configuration? It gets tricky. Two very different questions. The NVR can do Face recognition with a database of 20,000 so in theory yes. For ANPR you would need an ANPR capable camera
• Compatibility: Does the combination of NVR and cameras fit well together? The NVR is top of the line. The cameras are new and most have not tested them. Member @steve1225 is probably the most knowledgeable about them. Don't believe everything you read about them or everything you see in marketing videos. We've been fooled before

 

[steve1225]

Very strange setup - only 3 cams (from lower line) and very high NVR.

For better Video Meta Data support You should look at 5442 cams which can do mini VMD + AcuPick + IVS on camera at once..
Much more options (especially lens options with varifocal / optical zoom).. Yes 3449 TIOC-PRO works little better at night that 5442 and have hybrid lights (IR + white, white activated by motion)..

5xxx-XI and 6xx-XI are very nice / highest line of NVR. They have capability of doing both VMD + Face Detection/Recognition on NVR side. But please remember that those functions eats 1/8 of AI limit each per channel - so You will limited to 4 cams with VMD + Face Detection/Recognition done on NVR (not cam).

Bigest problem with those -XI lines of NVR is that Dahua forgotten about then. Firmware for it is one year (or even more) behind that normal 5xxx-EI NVR line.. Lots of missing new function..

We wait more that half year for promised major firmware upgrade. However, subsequent deadlines are not met by Dahua.

 

[Beckmec]

Thank you for the feedback and sorry for my delayed response.

This has already helped me a lot and it seems that I chose the wrong cameras here.

However, I haven't given up hope that I might only need 3 cameras for the specified areas.

I found the following model here at Dahua:

IPC-MFW7449Y-Z7-T8A

Link:

https://www.dahuasecurity.com/produ...zMind-7-Series/Dual-Sight/IPC-MFW7449Y-Z7-T8A

Specs:
2×4MP Full-color Duo Splicing WizMind Network Camera

• Outputs 180° wide angle splicing image.
• Outputs max. 8 MP (4096 × 1800)@25 fps.
• H.265 codec, high compression rate, ultra-low bit rate.
• Built-in warm light, and the max. illumination distance is 40 m.
• ROI, SMART H.264 +/H.265+, AI H.264/H.265, flexible coding, applicable to various bandwidth and storage environments.
• WDR, 3D NR, HLC, BLC, digital watermarking, applicable to various monitoring scenes.
• Alarm: 1 in, 1 out; audio: 1 in, 1 out; supports max. 512 G Micro SD card, built-in Mic and speaker, support two-way talk.
• 12VDC/PoE power supply, easy for installation.
• IP67 protection.
• Intelligent monitoring: Intrusion, tripwire, heat map, and people counting.
• EPTZ: Enlarge and track the targets of intelligent alarms.
• SMD3.0.
• Image Sensor: Channel 1: 1/1.8" CMOS, Channel 2: 1/1.8" CMOS
• Min. Illumination: Channel 1: 0.0004 lux@F1.2 (Color,30IRE), 0.0001 lux@F1.2 (B/W,30IRE), 0 lux (Illuminator on); Channel 2: 0.0003 lux@F1.0 (Color,30IRE), 0 lux (Illuminator on)
• Lens Type: Channel 1: Motorized vari-focal, Channel 2: Fixed-focal
• Focal Length: Channel 1: 8 mm–56 mm, Channel 2: 3.6 mm
• Max. Aperture: Channel 1: F1.2, Channel 2: F1.0
• Field of View: Channel 1: H: 41°–9° ; V: 23°–5° ; D: 47°–11° ; Channel 2: H: 180°; V: 50°
• Close Focus Distance: Channel 1: 1 m–2 m (3.28 ft–6.56 ft), Channel 2: 2 m (6.56 ft)

With the three lenses installed and the 180 degree view of channel 2, is it realistic that I can cover the areas with just three of these cameras?

Are these cameras any good at all?

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any information about this model in the forum.

From my layman's perspective, the bare numbers don't look that bad at all?

Or am I being blinded?

Many Thanks

 

[bigredfish]

I’ve looked at that camera myself. It’s pricey. And specified for a scene that can handle it.

I still think you’re trying to do too many things with too few cameras

 

[steve1225]

this camera in official Dahua distribution in EU costs about 4K Euro..
I don't think there is anybody here who had ability to play with it..

Yes the spec looks very good.
It even supports AI on all channels (with some limitations like Video Meta Data only on one)..

Please remember this camera is very big (something like 50x20x20cm), very heavy and it require dedicated 12V 4A power line (no POE support)..

ps. why you try to fit into 3 cams?

I tried to understand map you provided - but there is almost no labels what is what on it.
And no pictures... So it very hard to help you..

ps. if you have bigger budget (from what You choose first & second time it looks like you have) - Wouldn't it be better to hire a local specialist on site who would select the cameras based on your requirements and install/configure them?

 

[bigredfish]

If Andy will send me one I’ll test it for the Team

 

[Beckmec]

Hello again,

no, we don't really have a big budget.

When I picked out a camera, my hope in the first step was that it would be suitable and in the second step that it would hopefully be "cheap" to buy from a dealer in China.

As we are in a completely normal and inconspicuous residential area with detached single-family houses or semi-detached houses and there is a turning circle practically right in front of our house (our street is a dead end), I would actually want to avoid attracting too much attention with too many cameras.

That's why my goal would ideally be to cover the areas with 3 cameras.

I have labeled the sketch again and attached a picture of the front of the house for better clarification.





I hope this is a little easier to understand now? Please excuse me for not doing it better straight away. Is there still important information missing?

Our semi-detached house has a gable roof with the eaves at the front and back. This means that if the cameras were attached to the rafters, this would be at a height of around 2.75-3m (mounting height).

Due to the not so high height, I cannot select cameras that have a "close focus distance" that is too high.

Otherwise, I would have considered the IPC-PDW5849-A180-E2-ASTE, for example, but this has a close focus distance of 3.6 m and would not work in my application.

Due to a possible 180 degree view and a suitable close focus distance and passable night vision, I ended up with the last-mentioned camera IPC-MFW7449Y-Z7-T8A (which would apparently then exceed my budget).

Is there no hope of implementing my application with 3 cameras if possible, usable night vision and AI properties (video metadata, especially face recognition)?

Many thanks

Kind regards
Beckmec

 

[wittaj]

That camera, in addition to being expensive, will be a lot larger and more noticeable than a few 5442-ZE turrets tucked up against a downspout!

 

[bigredfish]

Probably just get 3 of these

https://www.dahuasecurity.com/products/All-Products/Network-Cameras/WizMind-5-Series/S-Series/4MP/IPC-HFW5442E-ZHE=S3

A step up and a little better

IPC-HFW5442H-ZHE - Dahua International

IPC-HFW5442H-ZHE

www.dahuasecurity.com

Regardless you'll have blind spots to the outside of each camera based on your placement

 

[steve1225]

You selected half meter long big metal 'monstrosity' which will be very visible to anyone. And very 'pointy' (because it's big bullet).

if you want to have not so visible cams, use small ones..
most popular cams for home market are cams in turret (aka eyeball) housing.

they are small ball with 10cm radius and they are NOT pointy like bullet cams (which are big guns with very visible targeted direction).
normally they are mounted under soffit (which you don't have), alternatively you can mount them on vertical wall using junction box or wall mounting bracket..

https://www.dahuasecurity.com/ceen/products/All-Products/Network-Cameras/WizMind-5-Series/S-Series/4MP/IPC-HDW5442T-ZE=S3

https://www.dahuasecurity.com/ceen/products/All-Products/Network-Cameras/WizSense-Series/3-Series/TiOC/IPC-HDW3449H-AS-PV-PRO

those cams you should be interested.. first one have IR, little worse night performance (but best in class in comparison to 99% cams on the market), optical zoom (0.5-2x) and lots of AI functionality. Second is IR+white (white can be activated by people/car detection), only fixed lens (no optical zoom) and basic AI (SMD + IVS + AcuPick 1.0).

Both are workhorses for this type of installs. Both are best solution for day + night full color (with some street light).

5849-A180 is Full Color cam (don't have/see IR, require some white light at night), yes it see 180 degree but image is distorted, have strange full color image processing, have very weak AI (IVS don't catch half of cases someone will enter area). This is very old model (4 year), with weak CPU and many problems, which were never resolved. We wait when Dahua will release new generation of it more in TIOC-PRO format (IR + white).

in normal house installs like you, you should have 2 cams in front the house, looking to front in crossing way (left to the right, right to the left), one on the side (in you case better is locate it in the 2/3 of the wall - somewhere where garage starts, looking to the front - parking place + street), plus one in the back (in your case on the right, looking to the left to see anyone coming from parking space).

In that case You have ONE SMALL cam per each corner, each targeted in best direction. Three will record public street.
You can add small Dahua (or compatible) doorbell with 180 cam next to entrance - it can work as cam.

Typical install for small house, no one should generate any question about it.

 

[Chokolinho]

If it were my house, I would put the cameras at the front like this. Wouldn't that be correct?

 

[Beckmec]

Hello Chokolinho,

since I would also like to see what is happening in front of the garage, a camera would be installed at the front left corner towards the garage and following the advice from steve1225, I would also plan to install an additional camera at the same front left corner towards the entrance door.

 

[Beckmec]

Hello again,

The first eyball camera mentioned from @steve1225 had better AI functionality, vari-vocal lens etc. and the second eyball wizcolor camera had better night vision properties but less AI.

But wouldn't the IPC-HDW5449H-ZE-LED be a good alternative that combines both advantages?

https://www.dahuasecurity.com/produ...nd-5-Series/Full-color/IPC-HDW5449H-ZE-LED=S2

A vari-vocal lens, constant F1.0 aperture and AI functionality as well, ...?

Or is this also a model that is not recommended?

AI functionality is important to me, but ideally I would also like to have usable color night vision.

And due to the more discreet design, the eyeball cameras also seem to be best suited for my intended use.

Many Thanks

 

[steve1225]

Hello again,

The first eyball camera mentioned from @steve1225 had better AI functionality, vari-vocal lens etc. and the second eyball wizcolor camera had better night vision properties but less AI.

But wouldn't the IPC-HDW5449H-ZE-LED be a good alternative that combines both advantages?

https://www.dahuasecurity.com/produ...nd-5-Series/Full-color/IPC-HDW5449H-ZE-LED=S2

A vari-vocal lens, constant F1.0 aperture and AI functionality as well, ...?

Or is this also a model that is not recommended?

Heh.. You really tries to outsmart people who installed hundreds of cams
5xx9 are Full Color camera line (like Yours 5449-A180 cam), they don't have/see IR, almost all are only fix lenses, have big problems with not sharp image due big sensor and fully open F1.0 aperture (check Bokeh - Wikipedia). AI on them don't work very well, they miss many subjects... Dahua Full Color 5xx9 line is very problematic line, over time I less & less install / use it..

I bought exactly this model last year (it was a new model, only one model with varifocal in Full Color line) for exactly the same reasons as You and this were a miss. Image is not sharp even with varifocal & motorised focus control, AI (Video Meta Data) at night is a miss & hit, image at night is only a little brighter than on 5442.

In the same location I have TIOC-PRO (3449-TIOC-PRO) watching in different direction and this TIOC-PRO kills 5449.. Yes it don't have VMD (only IVS), but it simply works well.

Both HIK & Dahua have hundreds cams models - but in reality only a few are really good.