Recently purchased and installed a Lorex (Dahua) 4k 8 channel 4 camera NVR system and have image quality questions..

[Freddie1275]

Within the past month I've purchased and installed this camera system for my 1,200sq ft home (I have the 4 camera system instead of 8) . 8-Channel 4K Fusion NVR System with 6 Smart Nocturnal 4K (8MP) IP Cameras . The camera images look good during the day (if ppl/objects are not more than 20-30 feet away) but not so much at night as they leave a motion blur of a person walking, car, animal etc.. that is distorted and unrecognizable locally when viewing through my NVR unless the subject is within 10 feet or so of the camera. I do have lights outside so it's no where near total darkness and the closer to the lights the less blur and better the image quality. I just recently found out I could log directly into my cameras through their IP. My default exposure mode was set to shutter priority-custom range 0-10ms. I changed it to auto mode and that has helped greatly. Is auto a good setting or should i enter another custom range- shutter priority, gain priority or manual?

I have my system setup as 4k resolution with 15fps (max for 4k on this system) and 1080 bitrate on the main stream and sub stream (does bitrate matter on main stream or sub stream when viewing locally or is it just for if you want to view main stream remotely? I have really low 1mbps upload speed so I'd like to keep it low for viewing on my phone but want to still make sure it is recording in full quality when i view it locally off my NVR.) I've tried changing resolution down to 3mp with 30fps and even 1080p but i still see a blur as well at night.
The weird thing is when I view them on my phone with the low bitrates and resolution it appears to be some what better than on my monitor. My phone does have a 4k screen but my monitor is not 4k. If I had a 4k monitor would it greatly improve what I'm seeing or not?
These cameras are rated to see 100+ feet in darkness. I'm not sure if these just are not good quality cameras for nighttime viewing, I need to adjust a setting or if I should return this system before my 30 days is up and get something better? Also is there a setting to make my cameras stay in night mode at night instead of color mode? I've noticed the quality is better in night mode with the IR than the half color and night mode. My porch lights are keeping it on day mode only some nights.

Any help, tips and ideas are greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[disbjohn]

That bitrate is low for 4K. Set it to variable.
When viewing on phone it uses uses sub stream unless you set it to the higher res option when viewing a single camera.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Have a look at this post -

Common issues with camera image

Here is a quick guide to what might go wrong with the image of your cctv camera, and how to fix this. MOTION BLUR: This is probably the most common issue, new camera owners run into. Many times on this forum I've seen posts like: "I bought a set of cameras recently. The image looks great on...

ipcamtalk.com

The short answer is that blurring is caused by too low shutter speed. A low shutter speed will produce a nice still image, maybe even a color image, under low light but it's too slow to support accurate motion video.

 

[Freddie1275]

That bitrate is low for 4K. Set it to variable.
When viewing on phone it uses uses sub stream unless you set it to the higher res option when viewing a single camera.

I've got both MS and SS set low as my upload speed is only 1mbps on my home internet. It still records at the highest quality for local viewing off my NVR though correct? I forgot to mention it is set to VBR instead of CBR.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Your internet speed has no bearing on the camera bit rate, frame rate, iframe rate or any other parameter unless you are directly viewing the camera over the internet which is a very bad idea. Please read the post I provided a link for, it will help you.

 

[Freddie1275]

Your internet speed has no bearing on the camera bit rate, frame rate, iframe rate or any other parameter unless you are directly viewing the camera over the internet which is a very bad idea. Please read the post I provided a link for, it will help you.

Thanks so for for your post! So from reading i should set my shutter priority to 1/120s for people walking down the side walk, up to my porch and cars going down my side street around 30mph day and night? I also have my encode mode to H.265 but see there is an option for Super H.265/H.264. I have read that that Super H.265/H.264 has poorer image quality but saves more disk space? I'm not worried about disk space but would like the best quality so which is the best setting?
Also I'm still confused about the bitrate type CBR or VBR and max bitrate type i should use? Should i set everything to the highest on the main sub? Is that what it will be recording at for local viewing on my NVR or is that just the settings for viewing remotely? I notice on my app i can choose between MS and SS so that is why im not sure how to setup my MS.
Thanks again!!

 

[sebastiantombs]

Stick with plain old H264 or H265. The difference in saved disk space is pretty minimal.

I'm running three cameras in full color at night with some ambient street lighting. I have compromised on a shutter speed of 1/30 and it works for me with the light that's available. I've had good video of deer at a full run and cars doing upwards of 50MPH with no appreciable blurring.

I don't bother with 4K cameras for surveillance but have my 2K cameras set at 8192, CBR. I found, for the specific cameras I have, that is the best combination. You'll need to experiment a bit to find the "sweet spot". VBR can save some significant disk space because it will lower the bit rate for static scenes.

I use Blue Iris and have no idea what MS and SS is so I can't help with that one.

 

[Freddie1275]

Stick with plain old H264 or H265. The difference in saved disk space is pretty minimal.

I'm running three cameras in full color at night with some ambient street lighting. I have compromised on a shutter speed of 1/30 and it works for me with the light that's available. I've had good video of deer at a full run and cars doing upwards of 50MPH with no appreciable blurring.

I don't bother with 4K cameras for surveillance but have my 2K cameras set at 8192, CBR. I found, for the specific cameras I have, that is the best combination. You'll need to experiment a bit to find the "sweet spot". VBR can save some significant disk space because it will lower the bit rate for static scenes.

I use Blue Iris and have no idea what MS and SS is so I can't help with that one.

Main Stream and Sub Stream

 

[sebastiantombs]

The NVR, I believe, uses sub streams for displaying multiple cameras but records, and play back, the main stream. It should also display the main stream if viewing a single camera. Blue Iris works in that way and I have sen discussions regarding NVRs that describe the same behavior.

 

[wittaj]

Do a search on the forum for that kit. They will never perform at 100 feet at night despite the "claim". Actually most cameras will not work at the rated "IR" distance except for maybe a nice still shot - add some motion and that distance drops exponentially.

You will quickly be disappointed in those which I believe are 2.8mm cameras, especially at night.

Too many people get fascinated with the wide angle views that 2.8mm and other "all in one units" and such can provide and chase megapixels. But the picture is really no different than taking a pic from the same place with a cell phone - take that picture and then zoom in and it is a pixelated mess.

You would be shocked how close someone needs to be to a 2.8 lens in order to ID them.

My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his 4 Lorex cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system that had fixed 2.8mm or 3.6mm cams - those cams sure looks nice and gives a great wide angle view, but you cannot identify anyone at 15 feet out. At night you cannot even ID someone from 10 feet. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but walked past on the sidewalk at 80 feet from my house and my 2MP varifocal zoomed in to a point at the sidewalk was the money shot for the police.

In fact my system was the only one that gave them useful information. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 4MP Lorex system from Costco provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night. His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from @EMPIRETECANDY on this site based on my recommendation and seeing my results and fortunately those cams work with the Lorex NVR. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4MP...

My first few systems were the box units that were all 2.8mm lens and while the picture looked great in daytime, to identify someone you didn't know is impossible unless they are within 10 feet of the camera, and even then it is tough. You are getting the benefit coming to this site of hearing thoughts from people that have been there/done that.

We all hate to be that guy with a system and something happens and the event demonstrates how poor our system was and then we start the update process. My neighbor with his expensive arlos and monthly fees is that guy right now and is still fuming his system failed him. You said you could still take them back, and I would consider that.

In general, you want to run the higher bitrates and CBR and then start backing them down until you see a video degradation. The higher the bitrate, the better the quality. The image looks better on your phone because it is smaller than a monitor. My analog cams look great on my phone, but not so much on a monitor.

 

[sebastiantombs]

Mine all look great on the high res monitor on the BI PC or on a phone or tablet due to the smaller screen. They look kind of degraded on this craptop, but it is what it is.

 

[mat200]

..
These cameras are rated to see 100+ feet in darkness. I'm not sure if these just are not good quality cameras for nighttime viewing, I need to adjust a setting or if I should return this system before my 30 days is up and get something better? Also is there a setting to make my cameras stay in night mode at night instead of color mode? I've noticed the quality is better in night mode with the IR than the half color and night mode. My porch lights are keeping it on day mode only some nights.

Any help, tips and ideas are greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Welcome @Freddie1275






According to that Lorex page:

nvr:
N842A82
4K Ultra HD Network Video Recorder

Spec Sheet

https://www.lorextechnology.com/downloads/security-nvr/N842-Series/N842_Fusion_Series_datasheet_R1.pdf

cameras:
E861AB-W
4K Ultra HD IP Camera

Spec Sheet

https://www.lorextechnology.com/downloads/ip-cameras/E861AB/E861AB_Series_Spec_Sheet_R1.pdf

Image Sensor 4K (8MP) 1/1.8” CMOS
Lens/Lens type 2.8mm F1.6/ Fixed


Good news those cameras have 8MP 1/1.8" sensor

Better low light performance, recommendation:
You can augment that kit with a couple 4MP 1/1.8" sensor Dahua OEM cameras which will perform better in low light conditions. If you like the kit so far, that would be a good option. Look for Southern Yankee's welcome message to new members, the DORI section in the cliff notes, and Andy Empiretech as a vendor which would have the 4mp Dahua OEM 1/1.8" cameras

 

[sebastiantombs]

Another trick to improve low light performance is to use auxiliary IR lighting. I have a 30 watt IR flood mounted at about 8 feet that lets me see the very back of the back yard, about 200 feet away. It can produce "hot spots" though in a video but I don't need the IR built into the cameras back there.

 

[Freddie1275]

Do a search on the forum for that kit. They will never perform at 100 feet at night despite the "claim". Actually most cameras will not work at the rated "IR" distance except for maybe a nice still shot - add some motion and that distance drops exponentially.

You will quickly be disappointed in those which I believe are 2.8mm cameras, especially at night.

Too many people get fascinated with the wide angle views that 2.8mm and other "all in one units" and such can provide and chase megapixels. But the picture is really no different than taking a pic from the same place with a cell phone - take that picture and then zoom in and it is a pixelated mess.

You would be shocked how close someone needs to be to a 2.8 lens in order to ID them.

My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his 4 Lorex cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.

When we had a thief come thru here and get into a lot of cars, the police couldn't use one video or photo from anyone's system that had fixed 2.8mm or 3.6mm cams - those cams sure looks nice and gives a great wide angle view, but you cannot identify anyone at 15 feet out. At night you cannot even ID someone from 10 feet. Meanwhile, the perp didn't come to my house but walked past on the sidewalk at 80 feet from my house and my 2MP varifocal zoomed in to a point at the sidewalk was the money shot for the police.

In fact my system was the only one that gave them useful information. Not even my other neighbors $1,300 4MP Lorex system from Costco provided useful info - the cams just didn't cut it at night. His system wasn't even a year old and after that event has started replacing with cameras purchased from @EMPIRETECANDY on this site based on my recommendation and seeing my results and fortunately those cams work with the Lorex NVR. He is still shocked a 2MP camera performs better than his 4MP...

My first few systems were the box units that were all 2.8mm lens and while the picture looked great in daytime, to identify someone you didn't know is impossible unless they are within 10 feet of the camera, and even then it is tough. You are getting the benefit coming to this site of hearing thoughts from people that have been there/done that.

We all hate to be that guy with a system and something happens and the event demonstrates how poor our system was and then we start the update process. My neighbor with his expensive arlos and monthly fees is that guy right now and is still fuming his system failed him. You said you could still take them back, and I would consider that.

In general, you want to run the higher bitrates and CBR and then start backing them down until you see a video degradation. The higher the bitrate, the better the quality. The image looks better on your phone because it is smaller than a monitor. My analog cams look great on my phone, but not so much on a monitor.

I agree with all that you've said. On your varifocal cameras can they be zoomed all the way out and auto zoom in when they detect someone? Like Lorex has face detection, person +car detection and I've wondered once it picks someone up if a varifocal cam could auto zoom into the subject?

 

[wittaj]

The varifocal's are zoomed in to a pinch point and focus on that field of view - kind of set it and leave it alone. They are not meant for frequent zoom in and out. That would be a PTZ. My neighbor switched one of his Lorex out for a PTZ just for that reason. I have a PTZ as well. In the right location, as well as another camera covering the area, a PTZ is a great add on, but it should be an add-on and not meant for single coverage of an area as the camera could be looking the wrong way when you need it looking somewhere else.

 

[samplenhold]

On your varifocal cameras can they be zoomed all the way out and auto zoom in when they detect someone?

No, a varifocal cam allows you to set the FOV for the best shot. What you are talking about is a PTZ cam.

As others have said, a 2.8mm cam is a very wide angle and one needs to be very close to get a decent face shot. Shoving 8MP on a nice 1/1.8" sensor is not great for night views. That cam would need twice the light as a 5442 Dahua series cam for the same low light performance.

Also, your cams are mounted too high. You will get great shots of the top of folk's heads, but no facial features. That post in the middle of the first shot is reflecting a lot of your IR right back to the cam.

 

[brianegge]

I have a Costco n841 8 4K system. If I hadn’t bought the kit, I wouldn’t be on this forum. It’s a great start, now I’m interested in some of the starlight cams. My next cameras won’t be a kit.
My advice is to script day and night modes. I found my night video could be substantially improved by applying night settings. My cams have “auto” exposure but they don’t change modes automatically.

 

[Freddie1275]

No, a varifocal cam allows you to set the FOV for the best shot. What you are talking about is a PTZ cam.

As others have said, a 2.8mm cam is a very wide angle and one needs to be very close to get a decent face shot. Shoving 8MP on a nice 1/1.8" sensor is not great for night views. That cam would need twice the light as a 5442 Dahua series cam for the same low light performance.

Also, your cams are mounted too high. You will get great shots of the top of folk's heads, but no facial features. That post in the middle of the first shot is reflecting a lot of your IR right back to the cam.

Ya I hate that post being there. I'm gonna test it with IR off. I had 15 year old analog cameras installed in these spots previously. It's low IR didn't bounce off that beam. At night the cams pick up faces automatically if they're about 10 feet from my doors. I just switched the shutter to 1/30s and am very happy with the night images compared to before. Lots of user error and learning lol

 

[Freddie1275]

I have a Costco n841 8 4K system. If I hadn’t bought the kit, I wouldn’t be on this forum. It’s a great start, now I’m interested in some of the starlight cams. My next cameras won’t be a kit.
My advice is to script day and night modes. I found my night video could be substantially improved by applying night settings. My cams have “auto” exposure but they don’t change modes automatically.

That's what I plan. I set my shutter to 1/30s and its much better at night. Not sure how it'll look in the day though

 

[wittaj]

You need to set your day to a faster our auto shutter or it will be wash out city. You can set the day and night shutter differently.