Redundancy for Surveillance Systems

[TheFoxRocks]

Hey guys I am a small time business owner wanting to get into installing surveillance systems. I have planned and figured almost everything out, including insurance, installation, setup and the like for this business. However, a major obstacle for me will be how I offer my clients backup for their security footage. For instance, the systems that I install are simple solutions that are pretty awesome, except the fact that there is a single point of failure. That is the actual DVR box. Specifically, if a burglar steals the box or a act of nature damages the box the client has nothing to provide to authorities or insurance agencies. I obviously need to be able to offer my clients some method either through me or a third party, that will allow them to backup at least a couple days worth of footage.

Fortunately I am somewhat educated in computers and how they operate. Therefore, I was thinking about setting up some kind of NAS/FTP server that will allow me to offer my customers some kind of backup. I noticed that most modern camera systems have a dedicated menu for FTP protocols. However, I have never actually had to setup my own NAS/FTP server so this would be totally new to me. I am concerned about other issues that may arise as well, such as security concerns and bandwidth concerns. My surveillance systems are set to record continuously and overwrite the data on the HDD as needed. I am going to keep that the same, but was thinking maybe I could add in a control to take several still images when the motion sensors are activated and upload those to my server or even a third party. I realize I am going to get a ton of false positives but the still images should be manageable.

I also thought about a cloud service as well. I just installed a system that had cloud functionality, but there are a couple major concerns. It looks like this one only works with Drop Box and I cannot get it to sync. I am thinking this particular one was never meant to use cloud functionality. Because it looks totally different from the directions and pictures in the manual, this one looks very primitive. Another concern is that cloud services like Drop Box only offer a tiny amount of data for free. I do not think this would be enough for hundreds of video stills.

Anyway I will leave it at that for now, I am open to any other advice/criticisms as well. If you have a system you really like or think is good let me know. I have posted this topic in other non-surveillance related forums with some help. I was hoping maybe a dedicated forum would be able to go more in depth with stuff like this. I appreciate any advice in advance!

 

[alastairstevenson]

Have you considered a second NVR, in a different, maybe hidden, location, connected to the same cameras?

 

[comsci]

You could try the CamaC IP Camera FTP and remote viewing service I'm currently developing.

It provides historical data storage and a web interface to browse events.
It automatically deletes old files to maintain the disk quota per account.

Run the demos or create an account at

https://app.comsci.co.uk/camac

Currently free while in development and guideline prices will start at about 99p per month (Comparable to the electricity cost to run a DVR)

Simple to access historical events
Your data is safe and secure. (Encrypted via HTTPS and FTPS)
Access from anywhere with Internet and a browser.
No router configuration required.
No static IP or dynamic proxy requirements.
No vulnerabilities from open network ports
No software or plugins to install
No DVR video recorder required.
Data is preserved in the event of camera theft, damage or power disconnection
Performs better than other remote viewing solutions where bandwidth is limited (E.g. poor wireless or mobile signal)

 

[TheFoxRocks]

Have you considered a second NVR, in a different, maybe hidden, location, connected to the same cameras?

I honestly did think about something like that, like maybe taking out a small partition on a local computer or hiding a clone of the DVR or something. However, by law for something to be considered truly backed up or redundant it has to be stored on an offsite location. For instance, I would be worried about a burglary taking place and them finding the second DVR/NVR or computer and stealing it. Then you home owner holding my business responsible for not providing a true backup. It is an awesome idea, especially since I would not have to worry about Internet bandwidth and security over the Internet. Just I do not think it is ever going to work for my business.

 

[msquared]

You as the business owner, want to offer clients a way to backup their security footage offsite. When you offer something like this, the expectation of reliability, security, and privacy are held to a higher standard. Your customers are going to expect, that if and when something happens, you are able to provide what they need.

If you are not prepared, as a small business owner, to meet these expectations, it may be better to teach your clients the different options available to them. Something else that may help you set something up, are you charging your clients a fee for offsite storage? This may help mitigate costs.

What are you looking to offer your clients in regards to storage space? Are your clients backing up motion alerts, raw continuous footage, motion alert snapshots?

For a backup to be useful if something happens to the primary on site storage, a client would probably need to have almost continuous connection to offsite, or a trigger mechanism. You have to consider client's internet connection, speed, data caps. Maybe a hybrid plan (shared responsibility), where you can host the data on NAS units (with UPS protection) on your site (you just provide the security of the "offsite" location and storage medium. Drives in NAS can be hot upgraded to increase storage with no downtime. I have a Netgear NAS, where folders for a client can be made, secure cloud access, with storage quotas.

There will be data retention, privacy, content rules, and other legal issues regarding storing customer data. If you provide any type of storage, your business may be subject to receiving search and seizure warrants for data. I'm not a small business owner, I'm just throwing ideas out there to see if anything helps.

 

[alastairstevenson]

However, by law for something to be considered truly backed up or redundant it has to be stored on an offsite location.

I made the assumption your customers would be home owners, though you didn't explicitly mention that.
Does this law also apply to those customer types?

 

[TheFoxRocks]

You as the business owner, want to offer clients a way to backup their security footage offsite. When you offer something like this, the expectation of reliability, security, and privacy are held to a higher standard. Your customers are going to expect, that if and when something happens, you are able to provide what they need.

If you are not prepared, as a small business owner, to meet these expectations, it may be better to teach your clients the different options available to them. Something else that may help you set something up, are you charging your clients a fee for offsite storage? This may help mitigate costs.

What are you looking to offer your clients in regards to storage space? Are your clients backing up motion alerts, raw continuous footage, motion alert snapshots?

For a backup to be useful if something happens to the primary on site storage, a client would probably need to have almost continuous connection to offsite, or a trigger mechanism. You have to consider client's internet connection, speed, data caps. Maybe a hybrid plan (shared responsibility), where you can host the data on NAS units (with UPS protection) on your site (you just provide the security of the "offsite" location and storage medium. Drives in NAS can be hot upgraded to increase storage with no downtime. I have a Netgear NAS, where folders for a client can be made, secure cloud access, with storage quotas.

There will be data retention, privacy, content rules, and other legal issues regarding storing customer data. If you provide any type of storage, your business may be subject to receiving search and seizure warrants for data. I'm not a small business owner, I'm just throwing ideas out there to see if anything helps.

Thanks for taking the time to stop by and ask for clarification and provide feedback, I appreciate it.

1.) Footage vs Snapshots
To be honest, as far as backing up the data goes, I do not have many ideas where to even start. Because I could set the cameras to detect motion and try to limit false positives. I realize that there are going to be many false positives no matter what. Therefore, I would have to set a considerable amount of data aside for each customer if I wanted to have raw footage. I figure I would need approximately twenty-four hours of footage for all cameras. This would probably end up amounting to several days worth of footage which would be more than adequate. However, the real concern is Internet bandwidth for both myself and the client. I already have an office with business class Internet and would probably need to upgrade that in the future if this does happen. Therefore, I am thinking I might have to go with motion detected snapshots, especially starting out. They also need to be someone responsive as well. For instance, if a burglar begins breaking into a clients home I would have to rely on the system to upload the snapshots to my server before they pulled the DVR. This way at least the authorities and insurance agencies would have something to start with. I feel my customers would be happy with this and perhaps much less demanding on Internet bandwidth.

2.) Cost
This is a significant factor for me because the way I want to set myself apart from my competition is a "no hidden fees and no unsightly monthly charges". Therefore, I really want to make my profit upfront in installation cost but feel to succeed I need to be able to backup either through me or refer them to a third party (Drop Box etc) for redundancy. Also I may not even need to offer any type of redundancy if a customer does not want it. I can just do the installation, setup the system and my services end. Anyway, it would have to be very reasonable especially for homeowners no more than $10.00-$20.00 monthly. Obviously something like a FTP server will be costly upfront, but this small amount will help me pay for and maintain it.

3.) Alternatives
I am not even sure what I could teach them. As in right now I am not even sure what I could actually refer them to do. Respectfully, most of my clients are made up of elderly people, which is entirely fine. This is why the business will be a success, people that need me to set up their entire system for them and make sure it is 100% functional before departing. So I feel that trying to educate my customers in locating their own means of redundancy will not sit well or ever happen with many of them. I am not opposed to trying to set something up through a third party and allowing that third party to do this for me but I would have to set it up and have it working before I left to truly be the "convenient business" I will strive to be.

So the difference between a NAS and FTP is a NAS is just 'dumb' right? Meaning it is basically a house for HDD's or SSD's and it is controlled by another computer on the local network? Can you download something like File Zilla to a computer and use it to control the NAS? I would love to hear more from you. What is the overall cost of your Netgear NAS if you do not mind me asking? Any monthly charges besides stuff like electricity?

 

[TheFoxRocks]

I made the assumption your customers would be home owners, though you didn't explicitly mention that.
Does this law also apply to those customer types?

Yeah there are a lot of details, if I put every single thing in right away it would probably turn people off. I tried to put as many details in as possible without creating a flood. So to clarify my business will serve mostly home owners, but can and will serve small businesses too. It will also be insured for this. For small businesses think fast food chains, gas stations, small insurance/tax offices.

I am not even sure the law will apply directly to me and cannot remember it off the top of my head. However, I know if you offer redundancy as a service to clients you need to offer a completely offsite location for data storage. So I would imagine any court would apply the law to me and my business in this instance. Plus I totally understand it personally. I would hate for a burglar to break into my home and steal my DVR and locate the computer or backup I was using and steal that too.

 

[TheFoxRocks]

You could try the CamaC IP Camera FTP and remote viewing service I'm currently developing.

It provides historical data storage and a web interface to browse events.
It automatically deletes old files to maintain the disk quota per account.

Run the demos or create an account at

https://app.comsci.co.uk/camac

Currently free while in development and guideline prices will start at about 99p per month (Comparable to the electricity cost to run a DVR)

Simple to access historical events
Your data is safe and secure. (Encrypted via HTTPS and FTPS)
Access from anywhere with Internet and a browser.
No router configuration required.
No static IP or dynamic proxy requirements.
No vulnerabilities from open network ports
No software or plugins to install
No DVR video recorder required.
Data is preserved in the event of camera theft, damage or power disconnection
Performs better than other remote viewing solutions where bandwidth is limited (E.g. poor wireless or mobile signal)

Thanks for referring me and sorry it took me awhile to respond.

First how much data is provided before the software starts erasing older files?

Is this hosted in the United Kingdom? There might be some issues considering I am from the United States.

 

[msquared]

I don't have any knowledge on comparing FTP to NAS. I have a Netgear NAS, and it has the ability for me to make folders for clients and family, that I can set size quotas on, and they can access thru a cloud portal. The interface appears to have many more advanced features, but I don't use them. It simply accomplished what I needed it to accomplish. I did not purchase my NAS new, but it is an entry level business class NAS, so I would estimate the cost new with no disks around $300. HDD specific NAS vary in cost in relation to size, I have 4 drives costing about $600. Plus electric.

That being said, I'm going to take the "50,000 foot view" and give my thoughts to the best of my knowledge, which I hope is food for thought.

Your concerns about redundancy may be more easily solved than initially discussed. Options were a second hidden DVR, FTP, NAS, etc.

Your choice of equipment may be the answer.

Had you ever considered offering cameras with on board storage? Also, I'm sure there are NVR's that have cloud backup of recordings built in, whether a service provided by the manufacturer, or access to third party cloud service built into the NVR interface.

dahua nvr backup to dropbox at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

backup NVR to cloud at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

You could offer a system that has multiple redundancies built in, where camera SD recording is primary, also recorded to the NVR, NVR/recordings backed up into the cloud. I don't know what the statistics would be, but I don't think I've seen many posts about a break in where the suspect took an NVR and all of the cameras. (side note, camera viewing areas that overlap)

I don't know anything about how much FTP costs, but based on how I'm interpreting the scope of what you want to do, local NAS that you manage may not be the best solution due to the up front costs of hardware, and more, the multiple hard drives. Another issue is, also respectfully, your statement about the majority of your client. Some of those clients may be on a fixed income, I think convincing your clients of the value of a redundant service may not win over the negative perception of a recurring cost.

Therefore, you can provide the same redundancy service, but at no cost to your client or you (other than your time). To make sure things stay working as they should when you set up a system, you could offer bi-annual system health checks, where you check a clients NVR/cloud storage/cameras for function (clean lenses, placement, storage space, firmware updates, etc..) Your client certainly would appreciate knowing a SD card in a camera needed to be replaced before really needing that video to give to the police.

 

[SouthernYankee]

The issue with backing to a offsite location with a file, is that the most important information occurs less than 1 minute before the system goes off line. The bad guys break in and take the nvr or smash it.

If the backup is not running in realtime it is nearly useless in a surveillance system. What happens with cloud when the internet cable is cut.

 

[msquared]

Then best practices would dictate secondary storage on site? Wouldn't you mitigate this by hoping to get footage of the criminal before they reach a point capable of cutting the internet line or smashing the NVR located inside the house? Once they're on the property, it's game on.

 

[SouthernYankee]

I use a triple layer. I record on SD cards in the camera. I record on Blue Iris. I record on a NAS on the other side of the house in a locked hardened closet, next to the gun safe. Each camera is recorded in parallel on both BI and the NAS.

I would like to have the NAS in the gun safe.

I do not use an NVR.

 

[bigredfish]

A great excuse for a new gun safe!

 

[TheFoxRocks]

The issue with backing to a offsite location with a file, is that the most important information occurs less than 1 minute before the system goes off line. The bad guys break in and take the nvr or smash it.

If the backup is not running in realtime it is nearly useless in a surveillance system. What happens with cloud when the internet cable is cut.

Yep this was another concern of mine. However, I am thinking in reality you are going to get the criminal(s) in a snapshot that is uploaded before they can destroy or steal it. So even the most sophisticated criminal is not going to be able to walk/run up on your property in view of your surveillance cameras, break their way into your home, and disable the DVR before it uploads some very illuminating snapshots. I have been doing a lot of research and remember one setups I was looking at recommended a setup like this for just such occurrences. I cannot even remember where it was, I have watched many videos and read a lot of information to try and figure something out. You could call it wishful thinking but I think if the system is setup correctly it is going to catch and upload some snapshots of the criminal(s).

 

[TheFoxRocks]

I use a triple layer. I record on SD cards in the camera. I record on Blue Iris. I record on a NAS on the other side of the house in a locked hardened closet, next to the gun safe. Each camera is recorded in parallel on both BI and the NAS.

I would like to have the NAS in the gun safe.

I do not use an NVR.

Yeah that sounds like an awesome setup.It sounds like you have greatly increased your chances of having some sort of surveillance in the face of most events. Please do not take this the wrong way but it is still considered a single point of failure because of the fact no data is stored offsite.

Also about your previous post this system is a very basic redundant system. For instance, if the power goes out redundancy relies on me and the client having backup power and the miracle that the cable line somehow survived whatever took the power down. So basically there would be no coverage through me during such an event and I know that most other surveillance systems fail in this regard as well. Simply because they rely on a backup generator and the cameras being on a circuit that is part of it. If a client wanted their system to function in the event of a power failure I think the DVR would hold a significant advantage. You have to figure that during an event that causes someone to lose power hopefully there is not a criminal trying to take advantage of the opportunity and ends up stealing the DVR too.

There are so many things that I will not be able to offer my initial clients but like I said I think it would be unprofessional to install a nice surveillance system and tell them they are own their own as far as backing up their system.

 

[TheFoxRocks]

A great excuse for a new gun safe!

I do need to invest in a gun safe. I still do not think it is the right course of action in this case though. At least not for my particular needs. Because for the most part the only thing you would be protecting yourself from is a criminal that has broken into your home, aware you have surveillance and looking for your DVR to steal/destroy evidence. If they are able to trace it back to your gun safe and are desperate enough they may try moving it, jiggling the camera wires around possibly damaging the system and all kinds of other stuff. Especially if they can visually see the camera wires going into the safe. They are now going to be very determined to get rid of that evidence. Desperate criminals can go to some desperate extremes to avoid being apprehended.

 

[TheFoxRocks]

Then best practices would dictate secondary storage on site? Wouldn't you mitigate this by hoping to get footage of the criminal before they reach a point capable of cutting the internet line or smashing the NVR located inside the house? Once they're on the property, it's game on.

Yeah I think what you and I are saying is the same thing. I honestly believe by the time they are able to break into your home you are going to have at least a couple snapshots of even the fastest criminal. However, I am not positive on this. Take for instance, many burglaries are planned or executed by someone the homeowner has met. So the actual criminal may even know the exact location of your only DVR. However, I still think by the time the criminal walks up to one of the entrances to your house, even if your front door is wide open and goes straight to your DVR I still think the odds of not being seen are against the criminal.

This is a great conversation I love talking about stuff like this. In Intelligence Studies and Cyber Security there is something referred to as "Obscurity" and it is basically like having security without having security. For instance, sometimes hiding the most valuable stuff out in the open with no security is the best option. Obviously you cannot apply it everything, but the idea does work. For instance, if someone is driving around looking for networks with weak security (War Driving) they might stop to inspect a network that looks overly defended. Because they realize the network may contain something valuable, therefore making it a target.

Take for example, we installed our surveillance system about six months ago now and pretty sure our neighbors our unaware of it. Also the DVR is hidden in a back cluttered office, in a more cluttered closet, up high where it is the only thing with proper ventilation lol.

 

[bigredfish]

It’s gonna take the average or above average burglar a while to track it down and get into the safe, and both OCSO and likely an armed neighbor will be there in under 3 and 10 minutes respectively.

Home alarm uses cell and has battery backup

Still I too need to consider redundancy. I’ll have the snapshots sent to my phone but that’s it. I like the idea of SD cards and another NVR in a hidden location...

 

[SouthernYankee]

The current gun safe in mount in the slab of the house. To move it will take a cutting torch. The gun safe is in a harden closet with a steel door and bar locks. there are two cameras on the closet one inside and one out side. They will need a sledge hammer or a very good saw to get in the closet. The closet also has a automatic co2 fire suppression system. In the closet is a floor safe buried in the slab. That safe was put in as the slab was poured and welded to the rebar. The backup NAS is in this closet. The Main BI system is in a normal rack in a regular closet, it is also in direct view of camera. I have about the same number of cameras inside the house as outside.
It would be nice to have the NAS in another safe.

As is standard all cameras and computers are on UPS.

Plus you will need to kill my three dogs to get in the house.