Semi Professional Installs
- Thread starter hmjgriffon
- Start date
alarm grid is one of the only places where a diy person can purchase a new lyric unit from honeywell. Even then you are locked into their proprietary monitoring and the panel has to be activated by them. They have a self monitor plan for a fair price but these panels have no way to send you a simple email without using their service. Honeywell has a new line of sensors that are 2 way and encrypted that only work with this specific panel. These should be far better than any traditional wireless sensor but as nayr pointed out before wireless will never be completely reliable.
You would think honeywell would prioritize a new receiver for this line of sensors to their existing hardwire panels like the vista but they haven't. Thats why its my theory that alarm systems in general will continue to be phased out to locked down systems and why I'm looking into alternatives possibly using a Pi.
I haven't used any zwave sensors but wireless should be at least supervised.Which they probably aren't. Hardwired sensors aren't proprietary and you should be able to integrate them into any system. Elk has their m1 panel which is standard for home automation setups and they seem to be a diy friendly company as well.
I like my cams but they could only work well as a home alarm when your away if you wired them up to a pir etc. When I'm sleeping I want to know the moment someone tries to bust in my house with full perimeter sensors like reed contacts and glass break sensors as well.
You would think honeywell would prioritize a new receiver for this line of sensors to their existing hardwire panels like the vista but they haven't. Thats why its my theory that alarm systems in general will continue to be phased out to locked down systems and why I'm looking into alternatives possibly using a Pi.
I haven't used any zwave sensors but wireless should be at least supervised.Which they probably aren't. Hardwired sensors aren't proprietary and you should be able to integrate them into any system. Elk has their m1 panel which is standard for home automation setups and they seem to be a diy friendly company as well.
I like my cams but they could only work well as a home alarm when your away if you wired them up to a pir etc. When I'm sleeping I want to know the moment someone tries to bust in my house with full perimeter sensors like reed contacts and glass break sensors as well.
How many things do you see that are approved by the FDA? Do they promote the best thing for people or what big pharma pushes them to promote? Just because it doesn't have some label doesn't mean squat.
Getting back to licensing...I just looked through NJ's 40 something page document lumping CCTV systems in with burglary/fire systems. The requirements to even be employed by one of these companies (to get experience so that you could get your own license) requires 3 years experience. I guess the real question is, where the hell do you get professional experience if NJ requires professional experience just to be employed by an already licensed company...wtf, I hate this state
so do it, why do you need some damn propietary panel? why subscribe to the traditional alarm paradigm? Just because it's the way it's always been done doesn't mean its the way that is best. You can do ANYTHING that you can do with a proprietary "UL" listed system with a self built system, it's all what quality of stuff you buy and how you set it up. Want wired? Wire it all up, lots of stuff uses NO, NC, dry contacts, etc. nothing proprietary there. All a panel does is give you some buttons to press, why not set up a decentralized system that has multiple nodes, failover, etc. Something you arm with near field tech, geo fencing, keyfobs, etc. etc. You can build a more advanced system that honeywell will ever sell you and not be locked into their garbage, think outside the box. You can buy PIR, laser beams, anything you want.
It's like that for almost all AIO wireless panels. The only way to use a 3rd party module for self monitoring is to get a hardwired panel such as the Vista series. I personally will never use a AIO wireless panel for multiple reasons.
I've heard Honeywell will eventually add a receiver to the vista line for the new SiX series sensors, but I'm not sure how true that is.
I'm not too concerned about them locking down the panel to prevent 3rd party modules. I'm happy with my Professional monitoring with IP Primary/GSM backup and Total Connect 2.0 for $30.00 a month without a contract. I prefer professional monitoring especially since my system has the whole house covered with fire and CO detection.
Outside of NJ, which if you don't live there, do not move there, or possibly college, or some schools that get kickbacks from the state, it's all a big scam.
ever used that professional monitoring? meaning, ever had something actually happen?
Has it been tested to make sure they respond properly and in a timely fashion? Yes, and I was happy with the results. Have I had a real emergency while away from home? No, not yet thankfully.
Honestly, that's kind of a stupid question. That's like saying why do you have a camera system? Ever have anything happen?
Plus, I'm not stuck with any particular alarm company, I can use any monitoring service I choose to.
I am already partly hardwired. The reason to use one of these panels is that they are very robust compared to most anything else and they are still accessible. Once you exit initial programming they can literally keep functioning for decades without a hiccup.
Sure you may get more features with a self-built system. However, I prefer reliability (supervision of wireless sensors, EOL resistors for wired zones, proper notification upon an alarm, supervision of sirens etc) over extra features most people don't need/want.
Honeywell doesn't lock you into anything..... You can also integrate all of those PIR sensors, "Laser beams" into the honeywell panel.
You can do a lot with a Honeywell panel. I'm not talking about those crappy AIO wireless systems. I'm talking about a Vista 20p, Vista 128 etc. The possibilities are endless, especially with their relay outputs, expansion modules etc. I don't think you're that familiar with a Vista panel or I think you would probably change your mind.
zero-degrees
Known around here
- Aug 15, 2015
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This guide will give you info regarding low voltage state by state.
https://www.nationaltrainingcenter.net/upload/wysiwyg/Forms-PDFs/NSCA Licensing Guide.pdf
Physical hardware markup 25%-50%, support hardware/accessories try to double your cost as well. Doing this will assure your "time" is accounted for.
4 camera system example
4 cameras @ $100 each $400 = $600
NVR with 4TB HD @ $250 each = $375
500' of cable/connectors/drill bits/zip ties/wall plates/etc $75 = $150
So your cost would be $725 for a nice 4 camera setup with all hardware/needed crap. You charge $1125 - putting $400 in your pocket over the course of 5-6 hours so your averaging $66 per hour, which isn't that great unless this is a side project on a Saturday. If you want to be in "business" you need to operate on at least 50% margins basically doubling your cost as you'll need to account for taxes/insurance/etc.
It may "Appear" their is money to be made in this business, and their is, but it isn't as simple as it seems in ones head. For a weekend project though - go for it.
https://www.nationaltrainingcenter.net/upload/wysiwyg/Forms-PDFs/NSCA Licensing Guide.pdf
Physical hardware markup 25%-50%, support hardware/accessories try to double your cost as well. Doing this will assure your "time" is accounted for.
4 camera system example
4 cameras @ $100 each $400 = $600
NVR with 4TB HD @ $250 each = $375
500' of cable/connectors/drill bits/zip ties/wall plates/etc $75 = $150
So your cost would be $725 for a nice 4 camera setup with all hardware/needed crap. You charge $1125 - putting $400 in your pocket over the course of 5-6 hours so your averaging $66 per hour, which isn't that great unless this is a side project on a Saturday. If you want to be in "business" you need to operate on at least 50% margins basically doubling your cost as you'll need to account for taxes/insurance/etc.
It may "Appear" their is money to be made in this business, and their is, but it isn't as simple as it seems in ones head. For a weekend project though - go for it.
It doesn't seem like much needs to be changed about the vista. I don't know how something could function any better or need to be anymore complicated. They also have alpha keypads with built in rf and that further simplifies setup if you want wireless. Just wish it was compatible with the six sensors.
edit: I can also control the system through my phone with the envisalink module.
tangent
IPCT Contributor
- May 12, 2016
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On a general level the lyric does some nice things and encrypted sensors are a good idea. The new six sensors unfortunately have switched to 2.4GHz and are going to be subject to a lot more interference. The DSC Neo series adds 2 way comm and encryption and doesn't use 2.4GHz.
Professional grade alarms are much more robust and thoroughly tested than the DIY options. Yes, they innovate at a pretty slow pace (to maximize profits and compatibility with things already in the field) but everything they do is thoroughly tested and better thought out than commercial attempts to use zwave sensors for an alarm like iris (or what most diy programmers would come up with). Read through the installation and user manuals for something like the honeywell vista 20p thinking about the hardware and software design and you'll have a pretty easy time coming up with dozens of things a zwave / diy alarm doesn't handle as well as it should. This should not surprise anyone given the decades of r&d that have gone into these systems. Professional grade alarms can be installed in a manner that complies with some standards set by the UL and SIA, but most residential alarms aren't installed/configured to comply with these best practices. There are more UL compliant commercial alarm installs.
For most people I think the best performing combination of automation and security is going to come from a conventional alarm system (elk, bosch, hai, honeywell, dsc) that's paired with an an automation system (No Dorothy, RS-232 isn't dead) or has one built in (though those can lack certain desirable things) with as many hard wired sensors as possible.
In the context of installing alarm / automation gear in somebody else's home or business there's also a strong argument for using products that are well tested and supported.
As far as licensing and such it's a very good thing fire alarm and suppression systems generally receive greater scrutiny.
As a NJ resident, sadly, you are 100% right.
@tangent very well stated! This thread has really gone off course into alarms, home automation, UL listings, certifications, etc.
When break-ins stated occurring in my neighborhood I decided to update my 4 zone burglar alarm system. I decided on the Honeywell vista 20p system since it has been in use for decades. I like that I can basically use any 12v alarm sensor and contacts. I added (all hard wired) Honeywell dual-tec and Bosch tri-tech motion sensors, glass breaks, and additional contacts to monitor all openings. I now have 24 zones so it's easy to see where there's a problem. Thus far I have no integration with my ip cams. At this point, I don't think I going to get into all the "smart" home devices.
I can see where ip cams, alarm panels, and home automation systems can cross over and make for a wiring mess and complications. I've had experience in my previous career with high rise fire alarm systems with smoke control. The fire alarm system and components ALL had to be UL listed and certified and isolated from other building systems. The UL listings and system operation were verified by the building inspectors and fire marshals. The fire alarm system did have to interface with other building systems such as HVAC, lighting control, fire doors, supply and exhaust fan control, emergency generator, security door locks, and other building systems. All wiring was isolated and separate except where it needed to connect/control the other system. The fire alarm monitoring companies were required to perform an annual certification with their report that the system was 100% functional. This is something the fire marshals reviewed and I'm sure the insurance companies looked at.
Sorry for the long post, but dedicated systems and UL listings do have their place in keeping things safe and orderly.
tangent
IPCT Contributor
- May 12, 2016
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integration with cams can be pretty minimal and still useful, eg only record on interior cams if armed away or system in alarm.
If you added some outdoor motion sensors as chime only to the vista that's the sort of thing you'd want to integrate or if you have a PTZ to tell it what to look at. If you ever do get into automation, you can use all your existing sensors with the right choices. A lot of the smart home devices that attract attention in the media are very cloud centric, you'd be better off with things like zwave or insteon devices and hardware to control them on site.
I didn't intend to take this thread off topic. When the op asks about installing home security / automation I'm thinking honeywell , dsc , or elk panels. I was simply trying to point out that as a unlicensed installer some systems will be inaccessible which I thought to be relevant info.