Sort of new security system user.

[Fish Arndt]

Good Day to all members of cam talk. I'm a home owner who 3 yrs ago, installed a camera security system. Since then I have learned how much I don't know about cameras & NVRs. After the 3 yrs of using system with 7, 4mp cameras, I, and local police, (such things as auto accidents, neighbor home shooting, neighbor home arson & misc other things, sometimes I think I'm working part time for the town police dept, lol), have been very happy with the performance & quality of system. I decided to increase total qty of cameras & at the same time, buying some 4K cameras for additional zoom in picture quality. Since about 2 weeks ago, when I installed the new 16 pos NVR & 4, 4K cameras, I think I have been in a fight with 4K camera set-up & am loosing the battle. I can't seem to get un-fuzzy video/pics from the 4K cameras. I am hopeful for a lot of helpful info from all the experts here. Thank you in advance on all of answers and knowledge I can get from you guys.

 

[alastairstevenson]

Welcome to the forum!
For sure you will get plenty of help for things you're puzzling over.

But you do need to provide some information so people can properly understand the problems you're seeing.
We have no idea about the system you have installed.

Since about 2 weeks ago, when I installed the new 16 pos NVR & 4, 4K cameras, I think I have been in a fight with 4K camera set-up & am loosing the battle. I can't seem to get un-fuzzy video/pics from the 4K cameras.

For example -
What models of cameras and NVR?
What video settings have you used in the cameras (stream type, codec, resolution, frame rate etc)?
How are you viewing the 'fuzzy' images (VGA/HDMI interface, web GUI, some app)?

Some screenshots are always helpful when figuring out the cause of a problem.

 

[Fish Arndt]

Thank you for input. Not currently at home but will try to expand on my system. Bought equipment from Arcdyn.com. Have some Turret and Bullet style cameras which are all hard wired, cat6 cable. All are fixed lens, 2.8, 4.0, 6.0 mm. NVR is 16 camera pos with qty of 2 Western Digital 8 TB hard drives.
I'm recording constant video using 3, 4MP cameras & 4, 4K cameras. Settings for the 4MP cameras are: Bitrate Type: Variable, Video Quality: Medium, Frame Rate: 20 fps, Video Encoding: H264, Max Bitrate(Kbps): 5500. Settings for the 4K cameras are: Bitrate Type: Variable, Video Quality: have tried Higher & Medium, Frame Rate: have tried Full Frame & 15 fps, Video Encoding: have used H264 & H265, Max Bitrate(Kbps): have tried a lot from 7500 to 13,000. Still pic is fine but with motion the blurryness starts while viewing monitor (24" TV) HDMI connected to the NVR or when using same monitor viewing playback. I sometimes have had video pause & then skip 2 to 5 seconds, which shows up on real time view & playback, but lowering Max Bitrate stops that jumping. Correcting that stops freeze & jump but the fuzzy pic that shows up on real time view & playback has been the issue that is beating me up.

NVR:
CARBON 160 - 16 CHANNEL NETWORK VIDEO RECORDER SKU: ACR16-160

Operating System	Embedded Linux
System Resources	Pentaplex function: live, recording, playback, backup and remote access
Control Mode	Front Panel, USB Mouse, Network
Incoming Bitrate	160 Mbps
Outgoing Bitrate	80 Mbps
Max User Accounts	32
Max Remote Connections	128
Video Compression	H.264 / H.264+ /H.265 / H.265+
No. PoE Ports	16
Max Channels	16
Two-way Audio Input	1-ch, RCA (2.0 Vp-p, 1 kΩ)
Video Output	HDMI/VGA
Display Resolutions	3840 × 2160, 3840 × 2160, 2560 × 1440, 1920 × 1080p, 1600 × 1200, 1280 × 1024, 1280 × 720, 1024 × 768
Max Local Live View	16 (per page)
CVBS output	No
Encoding Resolution	12MP(4K+)
Max Frame Rate	30FPS
Video Bitrate Min.	32 Kbps
Video Bitrate Max	8192 Kbps
Audio Output	1-ch, RCA (Linear, 600 Ω)
Audio Bitrate	16 Kbps
Dual-Stream	Support | (Sub-stream at CIF / QCIF: 30fps)
Stream Type	Video, Video & Audio
Playback Resolution	12MP/8MP/6MP/5MP/4MP/3MP/1080p/UXGA/720p/VGA/4CIF/DCIF/2CIF/CIF/QCIF
Playback Speed	Up to 128x (From Local Display)
Synchronous Playback	2 ch @ 4K, or 8 ch @ 1080p
SATA	2 SATA Interfaces
Capacity	Up to 8TB capacity for each disk
Max Onboard Storage	16TB
Network Interface	1 RJ-45 10 / 100 / 1000 Mbps self-adaptive Ethernet interface
Serial Interface	None
USB Interface	1 x USB2.0 and 1 x USB 3.0
Power Supply	100~240VAC
Noise Level(dB)	55dB at fan level
NVR Power Consumption	30W
PoE Budget	AT/AF 200W
Working Temperature	14°F - 131°F
Working Humidity	10% ~ 90% (Non-Condensing)
Chassis	385mm chassis
Dimensions	15.2″ x 12.4″ x 2.0″
Alarm Inputs	4
Alarm Outputs	1
Product Warranty	3 Yr

Two 4K cameras I have from them are:

SLINGSHOT 4K 8MP FIXED LENS TURRET CAMERA 4MM SKU: TF8MP-4

• Specifications

Compatible Wall Mount Bracket	No
Camera Smart Features	Motion Detection, Video Tampering, Line Crossing, Intrusion Detection, Face Detection, Region Entrance, Region Exiting, Unattended baggage, Object Removal
Image Sensor	1/2.5″ progressive scan CMOS
Min. Illumination	Color: 0.027 lux @(F2.0, AGC ON), 0 lux with IR
Shutter Time	1/3s ~ 1/100,000s
Lens Type	Fixed
Focal Length Fixed	4MM
Field of View Fixed	75˚
Face Recognition	50 Feet
Day & Night	IR cut filter with auto switch
Digital Noise Reduction	3D DNR
Wide Dynamic Range	True WDR 120dB
Video Compression	H.265 /H.264+/H.264/ MJPEG
H.264 Codec Profile	Main Profile
Bitrate Min.	32 Kbps
Bitrate Max	16384 Kbps
Max Resolution	3840×2160, 20fps
Supported Resolutions	3840 x 2160, 2560 × 1920, 2560 × 1440, 1920 × 1080, 1280 ×720
Adjustable image Settings	Saturation, Brightness, Contrast, Sharpness.
Backlight Compensation	Yes, Zone Configurable.
Network Storage	NAS
Alarm Triggers	Motion detection, tampering alarm, network disconnect, IP address conflict, storage exception
Alarm Input	No
Alarm Output	No
Audio In	No
Audio Out	No
Protocols	TCP/IP, HTTP, DHCP, DNS, DDNS, RTP, RTSP, PPPoE, SMTP, NTP, SNMP, HTTPS, FTP, 802.1x, Qos (SIP, SRTP, IPv6 optional)
Interoperability	ONVIF, PSIA, CGI
Security	Flicker less, heartbeat, mirror, user authentication, video mask, watermark
Communication Interface	1 RJ45 10 M / 100 M Ethernet interface
Operating Conditions	(-22°F ~ 140 °F) Humidity 90% or less (non-condensing)
Power Supply	12 VDC ± 10% , PoE (802.3af)
Power Consumption	Max. 5W - 7W
Weather Proof Rating	IP67
Dimensions	4.4" x 3.2"
Weight	1.5 lbs
IR distance	120ft
Onboard Storage	Built-in Micro SD/SDHC/SDXC card slot, up to 128 GB
Product Warranty	3 Yr

JAVELIN 4K FIXED LENS EXIR BULLET CAMERA 6MM SKU: BFX8MP-6

Compatible Wall Mount Bracket	No
Camera Smart Features	No
Image Sensor	1/3” Progressive Scan CMOS
Min. Illumination	0.01 lux @F1.2, AGC ON, 0 lux with IR
Shutter Time	1/30s ~ 1/100,000s
Lens Type	Fixed
Focal Length Fixed	6MM
Field of View Fixed	75˚
Face Recognition	50 Feet
Day & Night	IRC
Digital Noise Reduction	3D DNR
Wide Dynamic Range	True WDR 120dB
Video Compression	H.264 / H.264+
H.264 Codec Profile	Main Profile
Bitrate Min.	32 Kbps
Bitrate Max	16384 Kbps
Max Resolution	3840×2160, 20fps
Supported Resolutions	2688×1520, 1920 × 1080, 1280 x 720
Adjustable image Settings	Saturation, Brightness, Contrast, Sharpness.
Backlight Compensation	Yes, Zone Configurable.
Network Storage	NAS
Alarm Triggers	Motion detection, tampering alarm, network disconnect, IP address conflict, storage exception
Alarm Input	No
Alarm Output	No
Audio In	No
Audio Out	No
Protocols	TCP/IP, HTTP, DHCP, DNS, DDNS, RTP, RTSP, PPPoE, SMTP, NTP, SNMP, HTTPS, FTP, 802.1x, Qos (SIP, SRTP, IPv6 optional)
Interoperability	ONVIF, PSIA, CGI
Security	Flicker less, heartbeat, mirror, user authentication, video mask, watermark
Communication Interface	1 RJ45 10 M / 100 M Ethernet interface
Operating Conditions	(-22°F ~ 140 °F) Humidity 90% or less (non-condensing)
Power Supply	12 VDC ± 10% , PoE (802.3af)
Power Consumption	Max 7.5W
Weather Proof Rating	IP67
Dimensions	11.8" x 3.4" x 3.35"
Weight	1.5 lbs
IR distance	120ft
Onboard Storage	Built-in Micro SD/SDHC/SDXC card slot, up to 128 GB
Product Warranty	3 Yr

 

[alastairstevenson]

OK, plenty of model and specs info there.

the fuzzy pic that shows up on real time view & playback has been the issue that is beating me up.

Still pic is fine but with motion the blurryness starts while viewing monitor (24" TV) HDMI connected to the NVR or when using same monitor viewing playback.

I suspect we need to clarify what you are meaning by 'fuzzy' and 'blurryness', and if you are describing the same thing with each term.

'Fuzzy' I might interpret to mean low resolution or out of focus.
'Blurryness' (on motion) is when the exposure time extends over significant movement. Normally described as 'motion blur'.

If the problem is the latter, which I suspect it is, the primary lever to manipulate it is the exposure time, with DNR (Digital Noise Reduction) a contributor too.
And I didn't ask you about either setting - can you clarify?.

To reduce motion blur, the exposure time should be as short as possible, consistent with the reduced light gathering still allowing a good enough image.
I believe the usual advice would be to aim for shorter than 1/50 of a second for people walking around, and quite a bit shorter for faster movement.
To high a DNR value can increase motion blur by creating a ghosting effect due to the use of multiple frames to try to cancel out random noise in low-light images.

 

[samplenhold]

Welcome to the forum. Please read the Cliff Notes and the WIKI.

Looking at the specs of those cams, they will never give you good low light performance especially for anything with motion. The sensors are too small and have too many pixels spread across them. To get blur free motion you will have to set the shutter speed faster and that will cut the amount of light going to the small sensor.

See the below thread.

Common issues with camera image

Here is a quick guide to what might go wrong with the image of your cctv camera, and how to fix this. MOTION BLUR: This is probably the most common issue, new camera owners run into. Many times on this forum I've seen posts like: "I bought a set of cameras recently. The image looks great on...

ipcamtalk.com

Also:

Newbie Starter Guide to IP Cam System – VPN setup – Computer Hardware – Blue Iris – Dahua Cameras

This is an intermediate / newbie guide for people just starting out looking for a surveillance setup. I know this setup might not be for everyone and there are many options. You can find a lot of this information in the Wiki: IP Cam Talk Wiki | IP Cam Talk A great place to start in the Wiki...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[SouthernYankee]

how is the monitor connected to the NVR, what type of cable.
What is the specs on the monitor. If you do not have a 4K monitor that may be your problem.
When viewing multiple images on the monitor, it may be blurry and out of focus as the NVR needs to scale.

Calculate your incoming bit rate on each of your cameras, if it is more than 160 Mbps, you need to reduce the frame rate. Note frame rate and iframe of 15 is all you need for a surveillance system.

Cameras are for surveillance to get information for after the fact.

 

[Fish Arndt]

OK, plenty of model and specs info there.



I suspect we need to clarify what you are meaning by 'fuzzy' and 'blurryness', and if you are describing the same thing with each term.

'Fuzzy' I might interpret to mean low resolution or out of focus.
'Blurryness' (on motion) is when the exposure time extends over significant movement. Normally described as 'motion blur'.

If the problem is the latter, which I suspect it is, the primary lever to manipulate it is the exposure time, with DNR (Digital Noise Reduction) a contributor too.
And I didn't ask you about either setting - can you clarify?.

To reduce motion blur, the exposure time should be as short as possible, consistent with the reduced light gathering still allowing a good enough image.
I believe the usual advice would be to aim for shorter than 1/50 of a second for people walking around, and quite a bit shorter for faster movement.
To high a DNR value can increase motion blur by creating a ghosting effect due to the use of multiple frames to try to cancel out random noise in low-light images.

OK then. Please understand, I am an HVAC tech guy not a camera guy, ha ha ha, so give me some time to digest all this good info. In checking out the great info in "cliff notes" I can say my problem is (Motion Blur). Sorry for giving confusing info to u guys. Again, in the past 3 yrs I feel like I learned so much about video and then u guys give great info and I learn how much I still don't know. After looking at the recommended "cliff notes" , What Great Info that is!, now I can c why a video clip from the NVR would be so helpful to u guys. I will have to capture a file and try loading it for u guys to c but I'm sure it is (Motion Blur) that gets worse as day light is not present. I'm not sure what the DNR set point (sp) is. I will have to search for that sp and get back to u on that.
That other issue, or maybe an associated issue with above, at times I have seen hesitation as a vehicle goes by or even when a person walks by. While real time viewing on NVR (TV) monitor, there can be a slight hesitation of vehicle/person going by where nothing is noticed on the clock, to when watching the clock u c the image freeze and then jump ahead while the clock freezes and then skips 2 to 5, 6 seconds ahead. This also shows up when I pull it up on playback directly from the NVR on my (TV) monitor which is connected thru HDMI. It may just be in my head but that seems to go away and the clock seems to click off time smoother as I lower the (Max Bitrate Kbps) ? I'm not sure if these 2 issues r related or not.
Thank you to all this info from u guys.

 

[Fish Arndt]

Welcome to the forum. Please read the Cliff Notes and the WIKI.

Looking at the specs of those cams, they will never give you good low light performance especially for anything with motion. The sensors are too small and have too many pixels spread across them. To get blur free motion you will have to set the shutter speed faster and that will cut the amount of light going to the small sensor.

See the below thread.

Common issues with camera image

Here is a quick guide to what might go wrong with the image of your cctv camera, and how to fix this. MOTION BLUR: This is probably the most common issue, new camera owners run into. Many times on this forum I've seen posts like: "I bought a set of cameras recently. The image looks great on...

ipcamtalk.com

Also:

Newbie Starter Guide to IP Cam System – VPN setup – Computer Hardware – Blue Iris – Dahua Cameras

This is an intermediate / newbie guide for people just starting out looking for a surveillance setup. I know this setup might not be for everyone and there are many options. You can find a lot of this information in the Wiki: IP Cam Talk Wiki | IP Cam Talk A great place to start in the Wiki...

ipcamtalk.com

Great info. The (Common issues with camera image) is great! Helped me identify the correct problem I am having and to describe it in a way u guys may actually start to think I know what I am doing. LOL. But this info has been a great help. Thank you very much!

 

[Fish Arndt]

how is the monitor connected to the NVR, what type of cable.
What is the specs on the monitor. If you do not have a 4K monitor that may be your problem.
When viewing multiple images on the monitor, it may be blurry and out of focus as the NVR needs to scale.

Calculate your incoming bit rate on each of your cameras, if it is more than 160 Mbps, you need to reduce the frame rate. Note frame rate and iframe of 15 is all you need for a surveillance system.

Cameras are for surveillance to get information for after the fact.

Thanks, if I spend much time on this web, I may even be able to start talking like u guys think I know a little bit of what I am doing. lol. Much needed info I am getting and learning bushels of knowledge.
My monitor is a led 24" smart TV that is connected to the NVR by way of HDMI cable. A correct description of one of my problems is (Motion Blur), please see my comments in one of my replies above.
I don't have an (iframe) set point(sp) but I think that would relate to just my sp of Frame Rate. I keep going back to the 20 fps because it has smoother flow when viewing then when viewing at 15 fps, however I do think some of my issues are reduced some with the sp of 15 fps. Yea, I have to keep in mind I'm not watching a movie, I am gathering possible needed information. Agree with ur comment, cameras are for surveillance, thanks. 4 of my cameras are 4K but I have tried lowering the resolution between 4K and 4MP which I think may help correct my issues.
I'll have to try calculating each camera incoming bit rate. After knowing what it is, I can monitor better where I fall in that 160 Mbps. I think I remember reading on this web that u have to not just calculate the Main Stream but also calculate in the Sub Stream if my memory is correct.
Thanks for taking time to assist with solving my issues! Much appreciated.

 

[Fish Arndt]

Extra info on when issues started.
Three yrs ago I had some neighborhood problems so was prompted to spend the money and install security cameras. I knowing nothing about this, and in cutting $$$, bought equipment and did the install myself. Bought from Arcdyn, their Carbon 8 pos NVR with a 8 TB hard drive and 7 4MP cameras w/fixed lens having 2.8, 4, 6 & 12mm lens. Installed using Cat6 cable and with a lot of Arcdyn's help got everything up and running. Only made minimal adjustments and things were operating great. Supplied local police dept with a good bit of video, at times almost thought I was employed part time by the police dept, which is fine, I am glad to assist while helping to keep our town safer for all residents. Continue to get comments from police that i have a great security camera system. Then I decided that I would like to install a couple additional cameras. Well, I only have 1 more position available on my NVR so that needs to change. Bought Arcdyn's Carbon 16 pos NVR, bought 2 WD purple 8 TB drives and installed in NVR. Bought 4 new 4K cameras to upgrade 4 of my current 4MP cameras until I add the additional cameras in new locations. I bought 4K to get a better pic, better face recognition if needed since they are fixed lense and I was trying to have more clarity using digital zoom. Installed 4K cameras and the bottom dropped out. Bad quality video, problem, problem, problem and I'm starting to think, I should have stayed with 4MP cameras. If I have to downgrade the 4K cameras to get good video and/or still shots, I just wasted my money. So there be's it all in one bag. I greatly appreciate the knowledge of those of u who have taken ur time to help with my issues. It's like what I say, when I got my new flip cell phone, after a little learning I thought I was so smart, years later I got a new smart phone and boy do I now feel dumb. Ha ha ha! Thanks guys for helping me feel a little smarter.

 

[SouthernYankee]

can you please provide a simple break down of your cameras and there frame rates.
Reading your posts i believe you have
7 - 4mp cameras at 20 FPS
4- 4k(8mp) cameras at 20 fps.
??

 

[Fish Arndt]

can you please provide a simple break down of your cameras and there frame rates.
Reading your posts i believe you have
7 - 4mp cameras at 20 FPS
4- 4k(8mp) cameras at 20 fps.
??

Almost but not quite.
3 - 4MP Cameras at 20 fps
4 - 4K Cameras at Full Frame
Total cameras now is 7 cameras.
After reading what u guys have been posting & thinking about it, I'm starting 2 think i don't have an individual camera, exp: 4K camera issue.
Please read my next post 4 details.

 

[Fish Arndt]

I have been thinking about what u guys have been saying & started thinking & looking a little farther.
I checked my 4MP cameras and found that they also have (Motion Blur). Now I'm thinking, there is a set point(sp) in the NVR, that controls all cameras or at least data transfer from them, that has the wrong sp and is causing the motion blur in every camera. Is that possible? I found a sp in the NVR, System, Network, TCP/IP, called (MTU(Bytes) sp is 1500. Could this be causing an issue or a sp like this? I never had a problem like this using all 7 - 4MP cameras with my old 8 position NVR but now I do with this 16 position NVR. What r ur thoughts?

 

[Fish Arndt]

 

[Fish Arndt]

OK, Another evening of camera troubleshooting. At least I think with the info u guys r providing, I feel like there has been some progress. As I stated above, the issues are with both 4MP & 4K cameras. I last evening I started working on troubleshooting earlier, not a cloudy day but sunny day, if u can c where i'm going with this. Started with putting all parameters/set-points(sp) back to the original settings. Pwr the NVR down and rebooted. All fired up and looked good. Surprisingly good. like, I can't believe how good the cameras look. No Motion Blur on any cameras! So now I'm thinking why? As I continued looking and searching why, why did the problems, Motion Blur, go away. I tried setting sp at more of an extreme sp for the cameras, Video Quality-Highest, Max Bitrate-14000,Frame Rate-Full Frame and all still looks great ??? . What the heck is going on? Has this last week been just been a night mare? Ok, as I was trying to figure this out, things started to disintegrate. Motion Blur started coming back, why? Cameras are still in color mode but motion blur is getting more evident as I am working on this. Now 1 camera just switched to IR black & white mode. Now I'm starting to also get video hesitation and can c the clock freezing and then jumping seconds.

It seems like, in the past couple days, til I got to start working on this, it was maybe a cloudy day or later in the evening when daylight was reducing. I am now seeing and thinking, as one of u guys mentioned in the beginning comments, that the night vision may not be good because of the small or insufficient camera sensor. Could it be, that I don't have a full daylight issue but as daylight leaves and evening comes, even while cameras are in daylight mode, no IR, the video starts degrading as darkness comes and then the switch to IR mode, with vehicle lights adding to the Motion Blur.
Sorry guys, I wanted to get some video clips to post but it got to late last night and I ran out of time. I do plan on posting a couple videos.
Hopefully this helps all of u that were adding support. And I'm not sure, if this is the issue, if any set points can be changed to improve that low light motion blur and video freezing/jumping condition.
Again, thanks to all the time u guys spent to help me out!!!