surveillance for my church

[fenderman]

I've been scanning through headlines on IPVM.com as much as I can read of each without pro membership. Looks like a lot of bad press on both Dahua and Hikvision regarding zero day backdoors, etc. Of particular concern to me is that while recent firmware upgrades may have patched the issue, it sounds like it may be impossible (or at least difficult) to upgrade firmware from 'grey market' or rebranded units. I assume this would apply to LTS re-branded units of Hikvision?

Do any of you own any of these products, and have you run into issues getting the latest firmware installed? For Hikvision, it sounds like to be safe, you need firmware to be newer than 5.4.5.

You are missing the point. You can NEVER ever rely on camera manufactures, ANY of them, to keep your camera and network secure. Once your recognize that fact and you implement a proper vpn solution (and network segmentation if the scenario calls for it) it doesnt matter what firmware you are on. You can upgrade ANY dahua or hikvision INTERNATIONAL camera no problem. There are enough threads here that discuss the cams and the specific models. I will tell you that I would never use any of their NVR's they are finicky and clunky....look a software based vms, like milestone (free for up to 8 cams), blue iris (60/70 total not per cam)...or something like dw spectrum/network optics (nx witness) - which is 70 PER camera BUT provides FREE lifetime upgrades to new versions. Nx(an i assume dw which is the north american reseller) also includes a free cloud service to view your cameras remotely. This eliminates the need for vpn. I dont know how well that function works.

 

[Q™]

Most of the members here at ipcamtalk.com -- the ones with hundreds of posts -- are hobbyists, enthusiasts, DIYers and geeks...and most of us don't get hacked, don't brick our cameras and when we need tech support we help each other. For most of us, it's not a job, it's a hobby...but it certainly wouldn't be much of a hobby if we had to pay $500.00 for a camera, eh?

 

[achalmersman]

I have started implementing cameras at my church as well. Just installed a BI server and 2 2mp starlight turrets. Got them from Andy at Empire. Didn't tell him it was for church though so I may have missed a discount lol. The pricing was good anyway. We will be adding many more cams but I started with infrastructure and server first. I didn't even have a network to start with lol.

The Texas event certainly is disturbing and has added some thought and extra implemantation goals to our project. Like you, I now plan to have cameras at the front and have a live feed at my sound board in the back. This was not the original goal of the cams. The original purpose was for issues after hours. We are a small 100 member country church. In the last 3 or 4 years we have been victims of vandalism, arson, and theft twice. The worst theft this year was 4 of our AC units were gutted. Cost about 12k. 2 of them were brand new big ones for the youth building.

Sad, but cameras are a necessity even at church. So is my 9mm

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

 

[KenCT]

thanks again, everyone, for good, thoughtful advice!

I have a question about bulk cable for PoE cameras. Should I get Cat 5e, 6, or even 6a?

 

[KenCT]

You are missing the point. You can NEVER ever rely on camera manufactures, ANY of them, to keep your camera and network secure. Once your recognize that fact and you implement a proper vpn solution (and network segmentation if the scenario calls for it) it doesnt matter what firmware you are on. You can upgrade ANY dahua or hikvision INTERNATIONAL camera no problem. There are enough threads here that discuss the cams and the specific models.

Thanks, and point well-taken. One side effect of over-researching things (as I tend to do) is that there's always enough supply of bad stories/experiences to scare you away from almost any decision. I did browse through several of the threads about firmware upgrades and people rescuing 'bricked' cameras. So good to know there's enough information out there to most likely get myself out of a jam if something came up.

I also understand that VPN is the only recommended way to go for remote monitoring. What I hope this still allows, however, is for the remote monitoring to work from the requisite iOS app. For example, if I get a Dahua NVR (yes, I know you'd recommend a software-based system, such as BI, et. al) and configure a VPN, would the Dahua iOS app still work through a VPN connection?

 

[fenderman]

Thanks, and point well-taken. One side effect of over-researching things (as I tend to do) is that there's always enough supply of bad stories/experiences to scare you away from almost any decision. I did browse through several of the threads about firmware upgrades and people rescuing 'bricked' cameras. So good to know there's enough information out there to most likely get myself out of a jam if something came up.

I also understand that VPN is the only recommended way to go for remote monitoring. What I hope this still allows, however, is for the remote monitoring to work from the requisite iOS app. For example, if I get a Dahua NVR (yes, I know you'd recommend a software-based system, such as BI, et. al) and configure a VPN, would the Dahua iOS app still work through a VPN connection?

Yes...

 

[KenCT]

thanks again, everyone, for good, thoughtful advice!

I have a question about bulk cable for PoE cameras. Should I get Cat 5e, 6, or even 6a?

OK, I'm possibly retracting this question. I learned that when contractors built our church building, they installed a bunch of cable runs with old analog cables. I think it's RG59 style Siamese cables. I will be heading over to the building tomorrow and will try to confirm. I believe, if I understand what I'm reading, that we may be able to use this existing cable and simply install balun connectors to convert it to ethernet? While I'm frustrated nobody asked me about what cable to use (the building was only erected 4 years ago, and I already knew PoE was the future back then), it could save our electrician a lot of work if we didn't have to run new cables.

 

[fenderman]

OK, I'm possibly retracting this question. I learned that when contractors built our church building, they installed a bunch of cable runs with old analog cables. I think it's RG59 style Siamese cables. I will be heading over to the building tomorrow and will try to confirm. I believe, if I understand what I'm reading, that we may be able to use this existing cable and simply install balun connectors to convert it to ethernet? While I'm frustrated nobody asked me about what cable to use (the building was only erected 4 years ago, and I already knew PoE was the future back then), it could save our electrician a lot of work if we didn't have to run new cables.

its not a simple as a balun...there are some devices that will allow you to use it but they are expensive...it will cost the same to run new cable...

 

[Fastb]

If you haven't purchased nvr & cams, look at HD-CVI, to use the already-installed coax siamese cables. It might be an option.
Others here can weigh in image quality, camera choices, or other items to consider when comparing HD-CVI to IP systems. I started with IP, so can't say much about HD-CVI.
HD CVI is cheaper than IP, which is why you see HD-CVI systems for sale in the big box stores. Average Joe Consumer is price sensitive, and doesn't make a technical comparison (or informed comparison) before buying a system.

Fastb

 

[TonyR]

Sad, but cameras are a necessity even at church. So is my 9mm

I agree about both of those 'pieces of hardware'. I also wish both were not needed.

 

[bigredfish]

The latest Dahua HDCVI cameras will work fine over your installed RG59 cable. HDCVI cameras now rival IP models in 99% of features and it is almost impossible to see a difference in image quality. They will play quite well with newer Dahua DVR/XVR's and I doubt you'll find them lacking any real practical functionality. They just work.

Best HDCVI cams are the Starlights, just like their IP counterparts:
View some of mine here: bigredfish59
https://www.youtube.com/user/bigredfish59/videos
Starlight Dahua vari-focal cameras:
HAC-HFW3231E-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology
HAC-HDW2231R-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology
HAC-HDBW3231E-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology
HAC-HFW2231R-Z-IRE6 | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

They also have a good selection of fixed lens Starlights, as well as 4MP and 4K cameras in HDCVI now, including Dahua's first 8MP Starlight
4K - Dahua Technology

 

[fenderman]

The latest Dahua HDCVI cameras will work fine over your installed RG59 cable. HDCVI cameras now rival IP models in 99% of features and it is almost impossible to see a difference in image quality. They will play quite well with newer Dahua DVR/XVR's and I doubt you'll find them lacking any real practical functionality. They just work.

Best HDCVI cams are the Starlights, just like their IP counterparts:
View some of mine here: bigredfish59
Starlight Dahua vari-focal cameras:
HAC-HFW3231E-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology
HAC-HDW2231R-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology
HAC-HDBW3231E-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology
HAC-HFW2231R-Z-IRE6 | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

They also have a good selection of fixed lens Starlights, as well as 4MP and 4K cameras in HDCVI now, including Dahua's first 8MP Starlight
4K - Dahua Technology

CVI should be a last resort in 2017, if they can run new cable, it should not be used.
Here are some issues with CVI.
1) you are limited to basically dahua DVR's. or you will have to use a dvr as an encoder which may introduce its own issues and you still rely on the dvr to pass the signal.
2) no on board SD card backup storage
3) adding a camera requires a new line home run all the way to the DVR.
4) you cannot stream to two different recorders independently.
5) in a new install you are forced to home run to the DVR....

 

[bigredfish]

All 5 points true of course Boss, though they sell a hell of a lot of 'em and dont seem to be slowing down on product development.

That said, they work great, have equal image quality to IP cams, are low maintenance/highly reliable, and have most features the average homeowner or small business need. I have both IP and HDCVI systems and am simply a hobbyist not a professional installer. YMMV

 

[fenderman]

All 5 points true of course Boss, though they sell a hell of a lot of 'em and dont seem to be slowing down on product development.

That said, they work great, have equal image quality to IP cams, are low maintenance/highly reliable, and have most features the average homeowner or small business need. I have both IP and HDCVI systems and am simply a hobbyist not a professional installer. YMMV

yes, they sell a lot for two reasons.
1 - retrofit scenarios where its costly or the user does not want to swap cable
2- installers who dont care to explain the difference or are looking to provide the absolute lowest quote...screwing the user in the long run...

 

[Kawboy12R]

Or who price the low hardware cost of the system and fail to mention that labour costs rise significantly when there are more than a few cameras to install. Money that THEY pocket all of. Saving multiple cable runs saves money. Retrofitting existing analog systems with many existing runs of cable seems to me to be the best fit, followed by the up-front-hardware-cost-means-everything crowd with few cameras to install and who don't think of the future value and usefulness of expanding the building's IP network infrastructure for other purposes.

 

[bigredfish]

I totally get the cabling issue, on larger commercial projects of course the cabling/labor cost would easily favor IP systems. On a small church with 3-8 cameras and existing RG59, with a customer who repeatedly is looking for simplicity and reliability, I think the HDCVI option is a reasonable one.

I’m completely new to video surveillance, and I’d like a solid, reliable setup that won’t be difficult to maintain. I’m just a volunteer for the church with several other responsibilities as well, so once the system is in place, I won’t have loads of time to devote to troubleshooting or tech support. Therefore, I’m trying to do my due diligence now to make sure we get a system that will work well for our needs.

CVI cameras are 1/3 to 1/2 the cost, and as mentioned, the Dahua HDCVI Starlights are quite comparable to their IP brothers. If one is concerned with future expansion and compatibility, the XVR series DVR's allow use of practically any brand camera, TVI, CVI or IP. Once installed, HDCVI systems are rather simple to maintain and relatively maintenance free.

While I'm still learning myself having only got into video surveillance systems at the user level some 5 years ago, I understand some of the trade offs in IP vs CVI systems, though beyond the cabling/labor cost, the practical feature gap seems to be getting pretty small. I also understand folks who are DIY'ers and/or experienced in IP networking and enjoy the increased flexibility of PC VMS based systems such as BI over an NVR/DVR. That said I dont think one size fits all is necessarily the best view when dealing with small residential/light commercial with users who simply want reliability, quality image, and essential recording/monitoring/playback/remote features

 

[KenCT]

On a small church with 3-8 cameras and existing RG59, with a customer who repeatedly is looking for simplicity and reliability, I think the HDCVI option is a reasonable one

Thanks for this alternate suggestion. I hadn't looked at analog products yet, as I assumed they were legacy/on-the-way-out. It wasn't until I learned that we already have RG59 in the walls that I even gave it a thought. Very interesting to hear that analog options can still offer decent quality. We happen to have a licensed electrician in the church who is willing to install new cables, but I'm sure he wouldn't complain if we were able to spare him the task!

My brain naturally grasps the IP world a little better than analog though. I suppose my first questions would be:

1. could an HDCVI DVR still provide a bridge to the IP world, allowing someone to monitor feeds through an iPad?
2. could this DVR also send out email alerts on tripwire events?

As much as BI and others may provide the best flexibility, I do think our group would prefer the simplicity of a dedicated DVR or NVR. I don't think anyone is looking to maintain another PC, with all of its accompanying software updates, virus protection, etc.

 

[fenderman]

Thanks for this alternate suggestion. I hadn't looked at analog products yet, as I assumed they were legacy/on-the-way-out. It wasn't until I learned that we already have RG59 in the walls that I even gave it a thought. Very interesting to hear that analog options can still offer decent quality. We happen to have a licensed electrician in the church who is willing to install new cables, but I'm sure he wouldn't complain if we were able to spare him the task!

My brain naturally grasps the IP world a little better than analog though. I suppose my first questions would be:

1. could an HDCVI DVR still provide a bridge to the IP world, allowing someone to monitor feeds through an iPad?
2. could this DVR also send out email alerts on tripwire events?

As much as BI and others may provide the best flexibility, I do think our group would prefer the simplicity of a dedicated DVR or NVR. I don't think anyone is looking to maintain another PC, with all of its accompanying software updates, virus protection, etc.

1- yes
2-yes
a dedicated DVR is no more simpler than an pc to setup and use. In fact in many ways a dedicated pc will make your life much easier as you can remote in and make changes easily and see what they see.
windows has built in virus protection...if you properly setup a vpn you dont need security updates just as with a dvr...a dahua dvr port forwarded to the net will eventually be hacked...see the dahua hacked threads.

 

[TonyR]

As much as BI and others may provide the best flexibility, I do think our group would prefer the simplicity of a dedicated DVR or NVR. I don't think anyone is looking to maintain another PC, with all of its accompanying software updates, virus protection, etc.

And I haven't been to a church yet that did NOT have a teenage Wozniak wanabe that thinks anyone over 30 is a moron and messes with the PC and the network. He's usually a prominent member's son, too! No thanks....been there, done that!

(HINT: I get along better with dogs, PC's and hardware than I do with most people).

 

[KenCT]

installers who dont care to explain the difference or are looking to provide the absolute lowest quote...screwing the user in the long run...

I have a feeling this is kind of what happened to us with this cabling. Someone mentioned to our contractor when the church was being built a few years ago that we would be wanting to add cameras at some point. That got passed along to the electrician, whose experience was no doubt old-school, so without actually asking us or even giving us options, they just installed whatever cable they thought that meant. I would have certainly requested Cat6, had I been made aware.