TP-Link is innovating better than Hik/Dahua?

[Mark_M]

As the name suggests, TP-Link is stepping up their game in terms of what their cameras are capable of. Their specifications do not compete with Hikvision and Dahua but the ideas are something I could see being mainstream in the future.
Comment what you think.

TP-Link are trying to become a new contender.
I have just seen this TP-link PTZ with panoramic camera, similar to Hikvision and Dahua versions.

TP-Link also have an idea about using multiple cameras at different focal lengths, instead of mechanical optical zoom.
That is awesome! If you could have the ability record three video streams at once, and you don't have to worry about a delay to focus when panning/tilting.... or the PTZ was Zoomed out when it was crucial to capture detail.






Here's a smaller PTz camera they offer.
It's just motorised Pan/Tilt, with two separate focal lengths.

In the last year I made mention about this 'boobie cam'. This is a PT + Fisheye! A 5 inch diameter camera, with a 360° fisheye with a mini PT camera built in?? Now imagine this having a PTZ mechanism like the Dahua SD1A404XB-GNR! Would be even better if it could use that fisheye camera for auto tracking on the PTZ camera!

---

Is TP-Link onto something?
I am excited to know if Dahua or Hikvision make a camera similar. Or will this multi lens camera stay a gimmick?

 

[SJGUSMC21]

Competition spurns innovation and generally lowers prices...I'm all about it.

 

[BORIStheBLADE]

Competition is good for the consumer!

 

[wittaj]

Have any of these hit the market and actually being sold?

Unless they completely revamp their direction and process, these will probably be cloud-based like their other cameras and won't really compete or drive innovation to the Dahua and Hiks of the world.

Same reason Ring and Blink and the others haven't driven change with the Dahua and Hiks of the world....have you seen a revamp of Dahua or Hik app? They suck compared to the cloud based options LOL. Dahua went to a new GUI that almost everybody hates.

Same reason a Ferrari doesn't shake in their boots when Dodge or Ford introduces a new car - two totally different markets being served.

Personally I find these options above more gimmicky and marketing flash than anything useful. Dahua has tried some similar stuff and didn't really gain any traction.

I mean look at this marketing flash to try to sell "faster focus":



What Dahua camera that looks like the model on the left is only a 3 times zoom with a 4mm focal length? NONE lol.

Of course a fixed lens is going to focus faster LOL. But for a PTZ I want range and zoom options.

So with three lens how is the camera deciding which one to show you? Do you turn the PTZ to a wide view and then you start selecting the two other lens to "zoom" in? By the time you go thru that process I could have zoomed in and be in focus with the Dahua LOL.

The far right is a model with 3 focal lengths - 2.8, 8, and 25mm. At the size of that camera, I want the 120mm or higher focal length the Dahua provides.

Competition is great and drives innovation and hopefully prices down, but if they are not competing in the same market, it really won't have much effect.

 

[TonyR]

FWIW, I've been buying TP-LINK products for about 12 years now, mostly DSL modems, switches, PC Ethernet and Wi-Fi cards and a few wireless routers and media converters. I've had great success with all of them. Matter of fact, just last night I ordered a pair of their CPE210 outdoor 2.4GHz radios to make a relatively short wireless bridge for a client. I've built a dozen Ubiquiti Layer 2 Transparent bridges for people to link their house LAN to a barn, shop, garage, guest house, etc. but for months now I haven't been able to find any Nanostations or Locos, 2.4 or 5/5AC so I had no choice but to try a set. They have mixed reviews so I have my fingers crossed. Being a UBNT fan since 2010 I'm sure I'll have a critical eye on this first TP-LINK bridge and will report the outcome. I'm hoping that many of the poor reviews and bad results are by people that don't have a clue what they're doing when it comes to setting one of these up; many I don't think could set a static IP in anything, let alone even know what an "IP" is to begin with.

They'll arrive here 1/24 and weather permitting I'll have then in and working by 1/27.

According to Wikipedia:

"TP-Link is one of the few major wireless networking companies to manufacture its products in-house as opposed to outsourcing to original design manufacturers (ODMs). The company says this control over components and the supply chain is a key competitive differentiator."​

They are also listed as as a "Privately Held Company" here, not state-owned like Hikvision or partially state-owned like Dahua.

 

[looney2ns]

I have a few of Tp-Links Kasa wifi switches and they've been rock solid over the past two years.
I talked my BIL into using this Access Point in his rather large back yard, instead of the noname one that he was going to buy. He's been thrilled with the Tp-Link. Said it was an easy setup.

We'll see with the cameras.

 

[Mike A.]

FWIW, I've been buying TP-LINK products for about 12 years now, mostly DSL modems, switches, PC Ethernet and Wi-Fi cards and a few wireless routers and media converters. I've had great success with all of them. Matter of fact, just last night I ordered a pair of their CPE210 outdoor 2.4GHz radios to make a relatively short wireless bridge for a client. I've built a dozen Ubiquiti Layer 2 Transparent bridges for people to link their house LAN to a barn, shop, garage, guest house, etc. but for months now I haven't been able to find any Nanostations or Locos, 2.4 or 5/5AC so I had no choice but to try a set. They have mixed reviews so I have my fingers crossed...

I have a couple of those. They've been OK. I'm not wow'ed by them but they've worked reliably for a while now and for the price it's hard to complain much. Let me know if you run into anything, They run better with their "MAXtream" TDMA option turned on if a dedicated bridge. But that cuts off any other 2.4 access. The ad copy says 300 Mbps but the port is only 100 so you won't get any better through them end-to-end. I run a 4K and a 4MP cam at generally higher rates and some other trivial stuff through mine and they work fine for that. They don't integrate with their Omada management stuff.

Back on topic, I don't see any of these cams on the US site, just the small consumer cams. Not sure that they're offered for sale here.

 

[TonyR]

They run better with their "MAXtream" TDMA option turned on if a dedicated bridge. But that cuts off any other 2.4 access.

Which is OK with me, I run the UBNT 2.4's at 40Mhz channel width which also kills "conventional" Wi-Fi access; of course, AirMAX and WDS is enabled as well anyway and the pair only "talks" to one another.

But thanks for the heads up, I hope to have a good report by the end of next week around the 26th or 27th.

 

[Iemand91]

Same reason Ring and Blink and the others haven't driven change with the Dahua and Hiks of the world....have you seen a revamp of Dahua or Hik app? They suck compared to the cloud based options LOL. Dahua went to a new GUI that almost everybody hates.

Same reason a Ferrari doesn't shake in their boots when Dodge or Ford introduces a new car - two totally different markets being served.

Competition is great and drives innovation and hopefully prices down, but if they are not competing in the same market, it really won't have much effect.

This.

I have no experience with camera's from Google, Ring or the like (probably for the same reason as most people here), but that stuff could potentially be installed and used by anyone.
Now compare that to a system with Dahua/Hikvision camera's with a NVR or something like Blue Iris. Most people would be clueless.

I get that Dahua/Hikvision is for a different market, not for the consumer, but I would love it if they made it more consumer-friendly.
I mean; you could have a professional company install and set up a Dahua camera system with several camera's and NVR in a nice mansion; but the people living in that mansion want to see the live-view and recordings right? They would need to use a inferior app and desktop experience in comparison with Google/Ring/Eufy etc.

I would love to see the app being improved making it more consumer-friendly.
Or integration with the Google Nest Hub's (I know this only works with Google's own camera's like when Doorbell pressed - immediate live view on the Nest Hub, Google's camera's work instantly without interference from you;, for other manufacturer's you have to call the camera to be displayed).
And much better integration between the camera's and NVR's. We all know you should never alter camera settings in the NVR's webinterface since it often won't work, but when the NVR's has the option; it should WORK!).

 

[Mark_M]

Have any of these hit the market and actually being sold?
Unless they completely revamp their direction and process, these will probably be cloud-based like their other cameras and won't really compete or drive innovation to the Dahua and Hiks of the world.

Personally I find these options above more gimmicky and marketing flash than anything useful. Dahua has tried some similar stuff and didn't really gain any traction.
I mean look at this marketing flash to try to sell "faster focus":

Doesn't look like these are being sold outside of China. The two panoramic + PTZ ones were only avaliable on Dahua China's website when I was searching for them at this time (they'll likely come out in a few months).

Why would you say these aren't innovating if it's cloud based?
How does a physical change on a camera mean it could only be used in a cloud based system?
Cloud based home user oriented PTZs exist??? Analogue commercial PTZs came out before consumer level PTZs.

Of course a fixed lens is going to focus faster LOL. But for a PTZ I want range and zoom options.
So with three lens how is the camera deciding which one to show you? Do you turn the PTZ to a wide view and then you start selecting the two other lens to "zoom" in? By the time you go thru that process I could have zoomed in and be in focus with the Dahua LOL.

Sure, It's easy to say when comparing to technology right now. 20 years ago the idea of a phone being a piece of glass that could fold in half was a gimmick.

What is a big drawback of PTZs currently?
They're not always in the right spot when something happens.
I had my PTZ homed to look at my driveway, a break-in occurred at the neighbours house. If it was zoomed in further it would have got a better shot of the car/person/plate.

Competition is great and drives innovation and hopefully prices down, but if they are not competing in the same market, it really won't have much effect.

Feature/stability/price competition is good competition for the end user.

I'm sure they will keep an eye on other manufactures, even outside of their close competition.
It just takes one idea from a company, to spark another idea somewhere else. Now there's competition and everyone starts making something similar.

 

[wittaj]

Responses in bold below:

Doesn't look like these are being sold outside of China. The two panoramic + PTZ ones were only avaliable on Dahua China's website when I was searching for them at this time (they'll likely come out in a few months).

Why would you say these aren't innovating if it's cloud based?
How does a physical change on a camera mean it could only be used in a cloud based system?
Cloud based home user oriented PTZs exist??? Analogue commercial PTZs came out before consumer level PTZs.

I didn't say these were not innovating if it is cloud based. I said that if they are consumer based, cloud based cameras like their other cameras are, it is a totally different market than what Dahua and Hikvision caters to. Dahua and Hikvision do not produce a cloud-based only solution like the Rings and Nest of the world because that is not the market they are in so there is zero reason to imitate what TP link is making.

Same reason why we don't see Ferrari try to come out with an economical car. They cater to a different market and didn't care that car companies were producing cheap cars or selling more cars than they do.

Um Amazon and Aliexpress is full of cloud-based home user oriented PTZs. More than you can count. And cheap too.


Sure, It's easy to say when comparing to technology right now. 20 years ago the idea of a phone being a piece of glass that could fold in half was a gimmick.

Again, you missed my entire point - they cater to totally different markets and since they don't really compete it will not drive innovation to the Dahua and Hiks of the world to produce similar type cameras. Until the Dahua and Hikvision clientele wants these types of "gimmicky" cameras, they have no need to change from their business model.

As I said, look at the app experience as an indicator that Dahua and Hikvision are not going to be driven to change based on what consumer grade products provide. Ring and Reolink and Lorex apps BLOW AWAY the Hik and Dahua apps. Like not even close. They are user friendly and a grandma can use it. The DMSS app not so much.

When Ford came out with the cheap Pinto, Ferrari did not respond in kind with a cheap Ferrari. Different clientele and different markets. Same here. Your thought process of "Feature/stability/price competition is good competition for the end user." didn't help those wanting to purchase a Ferrari LOL as they didn't respond in kind with a cheaper vehicle.


What is a big drawback of PTZs currently?
They're not always in the right spot when something happens.
I had my PTZ homed to look at my driveway, a break-in occurred at the neighbours house. If it was zoomed in further it would have got a better shot of the car/person/plate.

You are fooling yourself if you think one of these TP Link PTZs would have benefited a break in at your neighbors house. That PTZ could still be looking the wrong way and with the 3 lenses, the max focal length is 25mm, so unless the break-in was within 40 feet of your camera, that camera wouldn't provide IDENTIFY captures.

And that is why those of us with PTZs use fixed cams to point the PTZ to look where it needs to since they are always looking the wrong way.

My PTZ is always looking in the right spot because of this solution and has solved many issues in my neighborhood, including ones over 600 feet away from my property - that TP Link won't do that. I will take my high powered PTZs and fixed cams over those TP LInk PTZs every day of the week.

Using Spotter Cameras to direct a PTZ where to look in an NVR or Blue Iris and setting a spotter cam as a priority in Blue Iris

We get this question from time to time, so I thought with the recent addition to BI, it made sense to have a thread we can point to. Previously in BI, if you had more than one spotter cam, you could not make one a priority, so if spotter cam #1 triggered the PTZ and it starts tracking and...

ipcamtalk.com

Feature/stability/price competition is good competition for the end user.

I'm sure they will keep an eye on other manufactures, even outside of their close competition.
It just takes one idea from a company, to spark another idea somewhere else. Now there's competition and everyone starts making something similar.

It is easy to say this and in general I agree that competition is a good thing and yes it can spark an idea, but if they are on total ends of the market spectrum it doesn't mean they will respond in kind.

But lets look at what they do with two items they could improve on based on what the consumer grade market is doing...

Dahua has required from the beginning that you have to use Internet Explorer to set up their cameras. Even their brand new less than a few month old 4K/T camera works best with Internet Explorer. How long has that browser been obsolete.... Name me a consumer grade camera that you can buy at a big box store that requires Internet Explorer....

Look at their app. It has been the clunky horrible experience as long as I have been using their cameras. The consumer grade cameras apps BLOW these apps away... Have we seen Dahua or Hik respond in kind with a more user friendly and modern looking app in response to what Ring and Arlo have done - NOPE - why - different market and clientele.

These are two VERY OBVIOUS items that the consumer grade cameras do better, and yet we have not seen the Dahua and Hiks of the world respond with improvements. They don't need to. Different market. The day may come that they need to if they start losing market share, but it hasn't happened yet.

They produce superior cameras to the consumer grade stuff so they don't have to respond in kind to gimmicky and marketing type stuff. None of us with a Dahua PTZ looks at that marketing graphic above and feels like it is better than what we have LOL.

Now one could argue that maybe Dahua and Hikvision are getting complacent and resting on their laurels and I agree with that 110% as I do think they could provide a better userface and app and this will trickle down eventually into people skipping their better cameras in favor of an easier app experience, but it doesn't appear that we are to that point yet.

 

[Mark_M]

1. I didn't say these were not innovating if it is cloud based.
2. I said that if they are consumer based, cloud based cameras like their other cameras are, it is a totally different market than what Dahua and Hikvision caters to.
3. Dahua and Hikvision do not produce a cloud-based only solution like the Rings and Nest of the world because that is not the market they are in.

Sure, It's easy to say when comparing to technology right now. 20 years ago the idea of a phone being a piece of glass that could fold in half was a gimmick.
4. Again, you missed my entire point - they cater to totally different markets and since they don't really compete it will not drive innovation to the Dahua and Hiks of the world to produce similar type cameras. Until the Dahua and Hikvision clientele wants these types of "gimmicky" cameras, they have no need to change from their business model.

1. Yes, Inspiration comes from anywhere.

2. Hikvision and Dahua do cater to all markets....... they sell under their own brand, under a mid-tier brand and under a consumer brand.

High-end	Mid tier	Consumer level (cloud)
Hikvision	HiLook & HiWatch	EzViz
Dahua	Lorex (until recently with Skywatch buying them)	Imou

3. They do have cloud solutions for their commercial level stuff.
Dahua China website has a section on Cloud based NVRs.
Going off topic: Why wouldn't they want cloud use? Cloud is how business make recurring revenue rather than a one-off sale now days. Verkada ain't consumer level but they sell cloud cameras.

4. Hikvision has started in the dual lens sector for consumer cameras....
Could Hikvision/Dahua be manufacturing new technologies into consumer level products to test them before incorporating it into high-end products?

Then the B&W+Color cameras came out to high-end markect:

What is a big drawback of PTZs currently?
They're not always in the right spot when something happens.
I had my PTZ homed to look at my driveway, a break-in occurred at the neighbours house. If it was zoomed in further it would have got a better shot of the car/person/plate.

You are fooling yourself if you think one of these TP Link PTZs would have benefited a break in at your neighbors house. That PTZ could still be looking the wrong way and with the 3 lenses, the max focal length is 25mm, so unless the break-in was within 40 feet of your camera, that camera wouldn't provide IDENTIFY captures.

And that is why those of us with PTZs use fixed cams to point the PTZ to look where it needs to since they are always looking the wrong way.
My PTZ is always looking in the right spot because of this solution and has solved many issues in my neighborhood. I will take my high powered PTZs and fixed cams over those TP LInk PTZs every day of the week.

15 years, ago you and I would have been fooling ourselves thinking that video detection would be good enough to have such a system for 'spotter cams' to direct a PTZ.

Even with today's AI detection, it cannot be used in everything because of unwanted action.
Using a spotter cam to direct a PTZ is intended action. But a busy street with it constantly moving a PTZ is unwanted action, yet the detection did it's correct job to spot a person and move a PTZ.
Best advice is still telling people to record 24/7.... or is video detection accurate enough to have detection based recording?

Part of your statement implies people to have more cameras.
The panoramic cameras replaces two cameras with one. Panoramic + PTZ replaces many cameras in one.
Dahua and Hikvision are making cameras that are 'all-in-one' solutions.

 

[wittaj]

The reality is if you step back and look at it closer, it is actually the other way around regarding innovation. Dahua has a lot of cameras that are never really talked about here.

Dahua has come out with cameras similar/better to most of these TP Link cameras.

Dahua has 180 degree panoramic PTZs and 360 degree PTZ. 180 degree doesn't do many people any good because they stick it on a corner and have 270 degrees to cover....

Dahua has thermal cams.

Dahua has dual lens cams - although some are talked about here.

I have played with the Hunter Series Dahua 180 degree PTZ camera and feel like my spotter cams give me an advantage over that "all in one" solution. YMMV

True they sell under different names or provide cameras to other companies, but those cameras are usually not as good as the Dahua or Hikvision as the consumer grade cameras are using cheaper materials and less than ideal MP/sensor ratios.

I fully understand why they would go with cloud based consumer stuff - it is a revenue string and they have the end user by the balls and can raise prices and change terms at any time and they end user is stuck with it until they get fed up enough that they get rid of it and go to something else.

Opinions on Cloud based video surveillance systems ?

Everything seems to be so on premise focused when it comes to security while literally every other business systems are in the cloud or connected somehow. Why are security professional so reluctant to move ahead with technology? EDITED BY FENDERMAN: This spammer works for eagle eye networks a...

ipcamtalk.com

Most here are not going with cloud-based cameras because they become the weak link in your fortified system. They can be easily hacked and have back doors and security vulnerabilities are rarely fixed and if so it is years later. And you are tied to them and their ever changing terms and conditions and pricing.

Sure anything connected to the internet can be hacked, but most people are keeping their computers up to date with the sometimes daily security updates and virus scanners and what not. None of which these type of cameras have.

Even NDAA compliant Verkada was hacked and 150,000 cameras in private companies, along with prisons and public school systems were part of it, which would be government funded..

150,000 security cameras hacked, exposing Tesla, prisons, hospitals

Hackers gained access through a 'Super Admin' account, allowing them to peer into the cameras

www.business-standard.com

Most here will recommend 24/7 recording, which is ironic because most cloud based consumer cams only operate on motion detection LOL.

Great discussion. And the more I think about it and look at the full catalog of Dahua camera offerings, I do not think TP Link is innovating better than Dahua as most of what they are offering is some variation of what Dahua has already made.