Trenching 500 ft for entry cams with a skidsteer

[Firefighter]

These aren't final install photos or anything just progress but hopefully this is the right subforum.
Thought it be be interesting to some of you.

Trenching from the house to a front gate for multiple utilities on 6 acres of land. Front Gate Camera, future intercom system and possible future anything so there will be multiple runs as extras on top of the couple things we know will be installed. Of course running everything burial rated inside of conduit that will be glued & sealed. (Still use burial rated incase water somehow gets in, or an animal eats a hole in the conduit and water then finds its way in... etc...)


Probably 400-500ft to the front gate, there's a detached garage at the rear of the property where there's a rear gate as well. We'll have 4 cameras there too. We'll also trench to that, which is probably another 300ft.

This is a fun install!

 

[smoothie]

Have you taken into consideration that the 400-500ft distance you mention is beyond the limit of standard CAT5/6 network cable runs?. The standard is 100m (328ft).

Not trying to be a negative Nancy but just thought I should mention in case you didn't know.

There are some proprietary technologies that claim PoE and transmission over distances greater than 100m but they are vendor specific, for example Dahua mentions 800m in their product literature. I would be cautious of such non-standard technology given that standard CAT5/6 cable is considered low voltage but I wonder how much power the Dahua implementation is pushing into the cable to achieve those distances.

You can also look into fiber optic cables which can traverse much greater distances. Common multi mode fiber optic networking can go 2km @ 100Mbps, 1km @ 1000Mbps (1Gbps), or 550m @ 10Gbps.

That looks like a beautiful property and a very pleasant place to live. I would love to live on a property such as that one day.

 

[tigerwillow1]

Nice to have such a useful toy. I've done well over 1000' over a few years with a hand shovel, about 14" deep. The trenching wasn't as big a problem as digging out all of the rocks. For the first run I rented a ditchwitch. It was great except I had to stop every 3 feet or so to dig out a rock too big for it, so I had to work like heck to do as much as I could before the rental period was up. Digging by hand without the time pressure turned out to be the lesser of the evils. Running the wires is a piece of cake once the conduit is in place.

 

[Firefighter]

Smoothie, no problem! Your just trying to help/inform other members.

Tigerwillow1,
Phew, I surely wouldn't want to dig it by hand! Lol

Smoothie,
Yes sir I am aware, power is being picked up from the gates so it's not a concern. However with our newer DVR/NVRs our distributor carries ( I install CCTV for a company for a 2nd job) those standards are actually 1,000ft for POE for IP. Advances in technology are being created, but considering we have power at the end locations the POE distances are irrelevant because video transmission distances are longer. Fiber is extremely enticing, unfortently some budgets must be followed.

Also, these are analog over cat5e for future IP upgrade. Yes, i know the general opinion of analog on this forum but i too can explain its reason.
Regardless if they are analog or IP they are within the distance ratings of our current cctv equipment to be installed.

I keep editing and adding to this post. Lol
Just to nerd out, there's the technology to run analog video over cat5e 12,000 ft. Yes, I said twelve thousand feet. luckily the distance is actually 300 ft, but we have to go wide out around some other underground utilities so I added an extra hundred or so feet for safety numbers.


I take no offense, you're just trying to help someone out.

It is, it happens to be my parents place and look forward to getting them set up with this equipment!
I'll hint that it's 16 cameras and a PTZ with a strict budget to adhere to, luckily they have a son that has dealer pricing. Lol

Thank you though!!

 

[smoothie]

I know some people hate on analog video but I can certainly see "right tool for the job" in this instance. With physical distance and budgetary considerations analog seems like a perfect solution, sure you might lose some quality but you also save a mountain of money by not going digital in this scenario.

16 cams and a PTZ sounds like a very nice setup for a property like that, should be great coverage and excellent piece of mind for them. I am glad you are getting that setup for them, I hope they get as much enjoyment from this system as the rest of us would.

 

[Firefighter]

Yes sir, they are 5MP Starlight Analogs. Yup... we run 5mp over analog now where the install calls for it over the 2mp star lights where the typical install calls for better night time performance.

Off topic but
We install a lot of 4k in commercial applications that have 24hr LED lighting. Gas stations etc... because they NEVER use IR or get close to being dark so having the extra detail to see someone pocket that candy bar inside is good.. now back on topic


To elaborate, this property is a mile from the closest neighbor. There are, and this is one installation that calls for a "I need to know, But NOT identify the person that may or may not be at the door."
Thus it would actually be a disservice to use 2mp star lights when we can gain an advantage during the day out of the 5MP star lights for day time quality because of the budget, and they are cheaper... if we used IP 2mp star lights we could not cover the areas we need to cover under the budget.

This is one installation that calls for and benefits from MORE lower quality night time cameras than FEWER BETTER night time cameras. With 7 doors and multiple odd angles to this house they WILL benefit from the higher daytime image and slightly lesser nighttime image over a 2mp for it's night time performance because of the cost.

3 of the cameras have 265' IR distances, and the majority of the rest all have 135' IR distances in the cameras because there are no outdoor lights to assist the cameras. The ptz has 330' IR and is 23x 1080p analog tvi.


You have x amount of spaces that MUST be covered and only X amount of dollars. Plain and simple.
That's all there is to it.


That, and the cost difference for us is crazy.
I'll just say that the IP equivalent for the same thing is 4x as much. Thus a strict budget to adhere to calls for such a situation.

 

[TonyR]

Just curious....I understand you have power at the gate, do you have Line-of-Sight (LOS) from gate to house or barn wherein a pair of Ubiquiti 5 GHz radios could operate as a Layer 2 Transparent Bridge, effectively replacing the data portion of a CAT-5e?

 

[Firefighter]

There isn't due to a curve in the driveway which is lined by Bradford pear trees with an elevation change.
Both front and rear drives have curves, and various trees that block LOS.

If placed anywhere near the gate the LOS would also be broken by a vehicle driving through. On BOTH front and back. Were only doing 1 cam on front, back gets 4 since theres a detached garage to also cover around and inside of.

Although I like the idea. We have a business across the street actually that I've talked to my parents about doing that exact thing so my parents can have internet...
This business is a trailer which was owned by that closest neighbor who's another 1/2 to 3/4 mile away.
There's gigabit fiber across the street... literally across the street with a node/loop in front of the house however the only thing that crosses to the house is power. They won't run the fiber because my parents won't pay the business commercial price of $300/month. Its not really a viable option. We even said we'd trench fiber from the house to the corner of the property and install a powered utilities box so all they have to do is run fiber across the road on the poles that are ALREADY THERE. lol oh well

 

[Fastb]

Firefighter,
I appreciate you taking the time to explain your reasoning, especially when you diverge from the "wisdom" here, provided to newbies and/or folks trying to do plain ole "vanilla" things installing cams at their homes.

I appreciate you read and digested the conventional guidance here, AND THEN provided thoughtful rebuttals. Your "contrarian" path, backed logic/specs, helps flesh out the many ways to achieve an objectives, within budget, while making educated tradeoffs of cost vs performance.
In short, Kudos to you sir!

I used a ditch witch to dig 400' of trench for a) water line and b) power. My property was over-run by galciers years ago. Lotsa rocks. The story of manually removing the rocks brought back memories, LOL! At the time, I was young, in shape, with plenty of testosterone. Oh, those were the days!

Best wishes helping your parents!

Fastb

 

[fenderman]

Firefighter,
I appreciate you taking the time to explain your reasoning, especially when you diverge from the "wisdom" here, provided to newbies and/or folks trying to do plain ole "vanilla" things installing cams at their homes.

I appreciate you read and digested the conventional guidance here, AND THEN provided thoughtful rebuttals. Your "contrarian" path, backed logic/specs, helps flesh out the many ways to achieve an objectives, within budget, while making educated tradeoffs of cost vs performance.
In short, Kudos to you sir!

I used a ditch witch to dig 400' of trench for a) water line and b) power. My property was over-run by galciers years ago. Lotsa rocks. The story of manually removing the rocks brought back memories, LOL! At the time, I was young, in shape, with plenty of testosterone. Oh, those were the days!

Best wishes helping your parents!

Fastb

nonsense...2mp starlights are 100 dollars...the cvi's are not 4x cheaper...the 5mp day image is not 2.5 times better than the 1080...its marginally better...6mp fixed cameras are 140...the cvi's are not 4x cheaper....
Cvi is ok for a retrofit when running new cable is very difficult (concrete)makes no sense on a new install....shady installers are using it to low ball bids and the clients are none the wiser...
doing all that work then trying to save a few bux on cams is silly.

 

[Firefighter]

You are only partially correct so I'll certainly correct myself where needed, but it's only in part here in cost.
I'm not buying from some guy on the forum who has an aliexpress account, for good reason.
I'm buying from a company that we spend over 100k in orders annually that provides a no questions asked multiple year return warranty in case there's ever an issue with any of the products overnight. My boss runs a business, and what's installed has to work and work all the time. When it doesn't it needs to be fixed fast.
The good reason is the long term outlook. God forbid something happen to the member who has an aliexpress store, his business closes and his clients never get any warranty replacements. Unless he's running a larger company that I believed so.
We know when we buy from our company that 3 years from now when that camera stops working we can get a warranty replacement no queation, no matter which of their employees leave, pass move on to another company whatever.

We aren't running simeasse cable, were running cat5e for future IP when they can afford it. This will work great for them for the next few years.

My cost, for the cameras we install is as I said cheaper but not 4x. Just 2.5x. Yes.... 2.5x cheaper.
5mp starlight tvi $65 while the 2mp starlight IP is $150. That's Our cost.
I never said said they are 2.5x better, but there is a difference and a noticeable one at that. Just last week I upgraded a client's 3mp system to 5mp. It's an upgrade. From compression formats to MP it was an upgrade. He could read his vehicles license plates in the driveway after the upgrade but couldn't beforehand. Better night time performance thanks to the starlight chipsets too compared to the older 3s he had.

If I was trying to low bid and make a buck I'd put in 1.3mp 720p cams and call it a day. I'm not though, I took a budget and did the most I possibly could with it. And no, the difference wasn't possible. They couldn't afford it, even if i went Bl4 and bought fixed 2mp for $100 they could never afford it, putting them $600 over budget.
But as always I appreciate the conversation and stand by everything I said except the incorrect 4x. It's just 2.5x.

As a staff member I'm sure you can see my edits,
I originally posted hastley. However I stand by my decisions to maximize the potential benefit for the budget I was given, and will continue to try doing so with future clients. I enjoy installing cctv, alarms and access control. Look forward to more here and hopefully I can contribute.

 

[fenderman]

Your an idiot because you assume, but are only partially correct so I'll certainly correct myself where needed, but it's only in part here in cost.
I'm not buying from some guy on the forum who has an aliexpress account. Lol no matter how much everyone worships him.
I'm buying from a company that we spend over 100k in orders annually that provides a no questions asked multiple year return warranty in case there's ever an issue with any of the products overnight. My boss runs a business, and what's installed has to work and work all the time. When it doesn't it needs to be fixed fast.
We aren't running simeasse cable, were running cat5e for future IP when they can afford it. This will work great for them for the next few years.

My cost, for the cameras we install is as I said cheaper but not 4x. Just 2.5x. Yes.... 2.5x cheaper.
5mp starlight tvi $65 while the 2mp starlight IP is $150. That's Our cost.
I never said said they are 2.5x better, but there is a difference and a noticeable one at that. Just last week I upgraded a client's 3mp system to 5mp. It's an upgrade. From compression formats to MP it was an upgrade. He could read his vehicles license plates in the driveway after the upgrade but couldn't beforehand. Better night time performance thanks to the starlight chipsets too compared to the older 3s he had.

If I was trying to low bid and make a buck I'd put in 1.3mp cams and call it a day. I'm not though, I took a budget and did the most I possibly could with it. And no, the difference wasn't possible. They couldn't afford it, even if i went Bl4 and bought fixed 2mp for $100 they could never afford it, putting them $600 over budget.
But as always I appreciate the conversation and stand by everything I said except the incorrect 4x. It's just 2.5x.

You work for the typical scammer installer...I get it..that is exactly what this forum is designed to combat. While you dont want to buy from "Some guy on the forum" its not only the same god damn camera you are getting from ADI, but in many instances better (for example they dont stock a US varifical 1080p starlight turret)...you scammers poo poo our direct from china purchases because we figured out that we dont need you...tell me one good reason not to save 30-50 percent per camera?
Whats with all these failures and returns you and your boss have? Botched installs? IP camera failures are extremely rare when properly installed.
If its 2.5 times more, why did you lie and say 4x? That said, its not my fault you are being ripped off by your supplier...why would you overspend for your folks...anticipating a bunch of failures?
based on your posts here its is obvious that your are a basic cable runner and dont understand the differences in resolutions and how then impact ppf..the 5mp is not a true starlight they are nothing like the 1080p starlights...

 

[Firefighter]

As my edit says I posted Hastley.
Regardless I don't poo poo on the purchased directly from China cams. I'm running those cameras on my own personal home with BI4.

But when you install thousands of cams, for clients who do not want to do it themselves you have to buy from a supplier with a warranty.
In the 2 years I've worked for the company we've only had a handful of camera issues. It's still a handful of cameras that would have cost my boss out of pocket. That's not good for business.
And not botched installs, I've submitted some of our installs to redits cableporn. My point is I take pride in the installs we do. We take time to do it right.

We also don't buy cams from ADI, but they're certainly making their dollars as a distributor. We buy from Alibi in texas. Who buys Hikvision rebranded. Im aware they are rebranded.
Yes, they are 5mp with Sony Starvis Chipsets inside. Better day time performance vs 2mp but lesser night time.
For this install, that was the better choice due to cost. It was cheaper. The ptz alone was 299 where anywhere else it's 998.

I will stand by what I said. This was the best decision with the given budget. But I appreciate and understand where your coming from.

 

[fenderman]

As my edit says I posted Hastley.
Regardless I don't poo poo on the purchased directly from China cams. I'm running those cameras on my own personal home with BI4.

But when you install thousands of cams, for clients who do not want to do it themselves you have to buy from a supplier with a warranty.
In the 2 years I've worked for the company we've only had a handful of camera issues. It's still a handful of cameras that would have cost my boss out of pocket. That's not good for business.
And not botched installs, I've submitted some of our installs to redits cableporn. My point is I take pride in the installs we do. We take time to do it right.

We also don't buy cams from ADI, but they're certainly making their dollars as a distributor. We buy from Alibi in texas. Who buys Hikvision rebranded. Im aware they are rebranded.
Yes, they are 5mp with Sony Starvis Chipsets inside. Better day time performance vs 2mp but lesser night time.
For this install, that was the better choice due to cost. It was cheaper. The ptz alone was 299 where anywhere else it's 998.

I will stand by what I said. This was the best decision with the given budget. But I appreciate and understand where your coming from.

Why in world do you need a warranty when you can cover it hundreds of times over with the savings?
Dahua IP starlight ptz is 350...

 

[Firefighter]

What about 265' ir? 135' IR turrets? Those costs?

Link to the starlight ptz?

I'm not the boss, just the installer as you said.
Certainly don't like being called a scammer but understand your feelings. We install for those who refuse to diy.
For my parents i was able to do more with our equipment than by buying from the member on the board. It came down to price and as I said that's the end of it. We couldn't cover what they needed for the price. X16 it added up.

 

[Firefighter]

I'm on a long drive home, 10hrs.
I understand this is IP cam talk. I s houldnt expect to post anything analog and it be liked or wanted, it's just the most active forum I'm aware of.
Our 5MP Starvis chips are starlights. It's the same chipset from china.
That are also h.265+, as far as I'm aware BI4 doesn't even support h.265+ but I could certainly be wrong, my BI4 is probably due for an update.
I understand your stance, and I'll agree to disagree on some stuff and just lurk unless it's IP related. If anyone's interested I can still post the install parts of this setup but obviously the cams aren't interested here and it's understandable as I mentioned it's in the name not sure what I expected.
4hrs left of this 11hr trip home, been a long night.
I edited out my post where I called you an idiot because it was uncalled for, as I apologized in the edit for that. Quoting it does make me look worse and if that was your intention that's fine.

 

[fenderman]

I'm on a long drive home, 10hrs.
I understand this is IP cam talk. I s houldnt expect to post anything analog and it be liked or wanted, it's just the most active forum I'm aware of.
Our 5MP Starvis chips are starlights. It's the same chipset from china.
That are also h.265+, as far as I'm aware BI4 doesn't even support h.265+ but I could certainly be wrong, my BI4 is probably due for an update.
I understand your stance, and I'll agree to disagree on some stuff and just lurk unless it's IP related. If anyone's interested I can still post the install parts of this setup but obviously the cams aren't interested here and it's understandable as I mentioned it's in the name not sure what I expected.
4hrs left of this 11hr trip home, been a long night.
I edited out my post where I called you an idiot because it was uncalled for, as I apologized in the edit for that. Quoting it does make me look worse and if that was your intention that's fine.

H.265+ is a proprietary to Hikvision....no one supports it... Starlight and starvis itself is a meaningless terms... They apply to sensors that can be bad at night like your 5mp...