Why do businesses use such crappy security cameras?

[Larebear]

I never could understand why a business or bank would use such a crappy camera to identify a robbery suspect. Can't they afford a Hikvision or Dahua? This is constantly the kind of pic released to the public from the news media in my area to try and identify the perf. Geesh, I wouldn't recognize this guy from the capture if he was standing next to me.

 

[fenderman]

Most of them have old installations (10 year old installs).. or shop for the cheapest quote...banks have special redundancy and security requirements and it could easily cost 50k or more to replace a system at a branch...
I was just reviewing surveillance tape from Target..I was physically pained by the crap quality of their ptz camera...it was awful...

 

[Fruit]

In my opinion it is because IP wasn't affordable till hikvision and dahua came along, and HD-CVI/TVI didn't exist till recently (past 1-2 years). Many installs (as recent as 3 years to 4 years ago) are already outdated...can't blame them not wanting to keep up with the latest every few years. Also the lack of knowledgeable installers that just sells whatever is a factor and these businesses that trust them are the one that gets the short end of the stick. (9 out of 10 traditional installers can't port forward or even know what IP addresses are).

 

[bp2008]

When I was in high school, around 2004, they paid thousands ... maybe tens of thousands ... for some crappy four-camera analog system that recorded to VHS tapes. I wasn't into security cameras back then but even I could tell they got ripped off badly.

I wonder how many equally outdated systems are still being installed today just because the installer/security company doesn't want to evolve with the times, and the customers don't know any better.

 

[bp2008]

In my opinion it is because IP wasn't affordable till hikvision and dahua came along, and HD-CVI/TVI didn't exist till recently (past 1-2 years).

That is so true. Affordable IP cameras didn't have what I would call good specs until just the last few years. In 2005 I went on a trip across the country with a low cost digital camera that took 5 megapixel pictures. Even today, ten years later, if you take the same money you can't buy an IP camera to match it for resolution OR image quality. Maybe it is because IP camera manufacturers think a high frame rate is more important than image quality. I say rubbish to that. Someone should have developed an IP camera with the imaging guts from a high resolution point and shoot camera, and done it 10 years ago when it would have been 20 times the quality of the VGA (and worse) garbage that was standard.

When I bought my house in late 2010, you still couldn't find an affordable IP camera with a resolution higher than 640x480. So I ended up with a terrible DVR with 4x 420TVL analog cameras for $250.

 

[fenderman]

Also keep in mind that often the image is cropped by police or the news station so you are looking at a zoomed in image....

 

[SyconsciousAu]

That is so true. Affordable IP cameras didn't have what I would call good specs until just the last few years. In 2005 I went on a trip across the country with a low cost digital camera that took 5 megapixel pictures. Even today, ten years later, if you take the same money you can't buy an IP camera to match it for resolution OR image quality. Maybe it is because IP camera manufacturers think a high frame rate is more important than image quality. I say rubbish to that. Someone should have developed an IP camera with the imaging guts from a high resolution point and shoot camera, and done it 10 years ago when it would have been 20 times the quality of the VGA (and worse) garbage that was standard.

When I bought my house in late 2010, you still couldn't find an affordable IP camera with a resolution higher than 640x480. So I ended up with a terrible DVR with 4x 420TVL analog cameras for $250.

That simplifies things a little. Your camera probably took 500 kilobyte photos. You average point and shoot camera isn't trying to put up to 30 of those shots every second down a 10 megabit connection, nor does it have to record weeks or months worth of those images.

Compression will always result in a loss of quality.

The picture in the OP is just garbage CCTV though. The biggest problem with CCTV is people not understanding it's limitations. Even VGA resolution will give you an ID shot, if it is set up correctly.

 

[bp2008]

In the end, nobody cares what the frame rate of the camera was if it doesn't capture enough detail to be useful. Storage space is not that big a deal even with large jpeg frames if you are capturing at a low frame rate and using motion detection to drop worthless captures.

Apparently Avigilon did and does build cameras like I described. But like everything else they build, those cameras cost stupid amounts of money (so high you can't find a price on the internet) so that style of security camera never caught on. If someone had built such a security camera and sold it for a low budget price that people could actually afford, I have no doubt it would have changed the course of the security camera industry. Image quality 10 years ago would have been better than it is today.

 

[Razer]

I went to a security and installer expo yesterday and visited several camera vendors and sat through a couple seminars (hikvision was one of them) with installers and it is shocking what professional installers so not know. Literally still installers that do not understand ip addresses, as in they don't know what they are. Behind me sat installers from a nationwide well known company that installs cameras and security. They were complaining about long hold times getting support, they said it took them 3.5 hours to figure our how to put IPs on an 8 camera system earlier this week. They also said they install these "all day every day" and yet they know nothing about them.

I felt like an everloving genius in there lol. Also, Hik is pissing off the industry with the nice low prices it seems, other vendors scoff and call them "cheap Chinese" cameras and warn "well, you get what you pay for" if you mention you use them. Then I mention that I have hundreds in use and have had exactly one fail, due to water getting inside it, that I blame on the camera. Couple hit by lightning but otherwise they have actually be the most reliable brand I've ever tried. Hikvision was mentioned specifically by name by competitors several times, never in a good light.

Installers are pressured to sell cameras from vendors that have cameras that are 1k to 2k a pop and then compete with analog installs. And they are told Hik is junk, so they are afraid to use them on big projects so even new installs go in with analog still today. It is an interesting industry that is for sure. I saw cameras pushed yesterday that "replace 4-5" cameras for $2400. I'm thinking, or I can buy 16 Hiks, a switch, and a computer to run it on....

Good times.

 

[Larebear]

The guy in the above pic robbed a Subway sandwich shop. They asked the public to help identify him but I doubt if his own mother would recognize him in that snapshot.

In this capture, the store is using a much better camera. The guy stole clothes from this Macy Dept. store. This guy would be easily recognized by someone that knows him or has seen him before. If he's local, he'll more than likely be caught.

 

[SyconsciousAu]

In the end, nobody cares what the frame rate of the camera was if it doesn't capture enough detail to be useful. Storage space is not that big a deal even with large jpeg frames if you are capturing at a low frame rate and using motion detection to drop worthless captures.

Apparently Avigilon did and does build cameras like I described.

Yes they make some very high res cameras like this one but 2 fps may as well be time lapse if you are trying to capture things like a fight, shop theft or even slip and fall. Even those have limitations that people need to be aware of and compensate for. A half second is a long time.

People are often cheap, ignorant, or both when it comes to their CCTV camera installations. The various CCTV forums are full of people who want a single camera that will cover their whole front yard and capture licence plates in the street day and night from their budget of $100. As razer points out there are also some very ignorant people in the industry too.

 

[Fruit]

I felt like an everloving genius in there lol.

You ARE =] network administers are the best IP system installers right now instead of traditional people .

 

[TechBill]

Also analog allow installer run longer cabling. Many installer don't want to be bother trying to figure where to install switches if they need to do long cable runs. They just wanted to slap it in and get thier money then leave.

Bill

 

[Michelin Man]

Reminds me of a friend of mine recently who payed about $4000 to install 6 analog cameras (540TVL) and a DVR it's branded as Micron but we all know its rebranded Chinese stuff. That price was 'discounted' as well, as he also got an alarm system installed by them.

He wanted to add another camera, and they charged him $500 for one camera. He thought the system was the best thing out. Even though you couldn't even recognize people you know.

Then you wonder what all that money went into.

 

[whoslooking]

That's the same in the UK, I have worked with ADT, Secom, Chubb, G4S these are big security company's who use zip code pricing in the UK, and most of the installation and service guy's only know about Intruder alarms, again they still push sales of Analogue / SDI systems as there guys just manage to understand these, they don't like the IP installations, they always sub contact these out.
But then the rates of pay for UK employees of security companies is terrible.
Most supermarket staff earn the same....

 

[fmflex]

The rate of pay in Australia is not much better. Unless you're out contracting for yourself you haven't a hope of earning a decent wage and even contracting isn't that flash where everyone is undercutting everyone else to try and get the sales. A friend of mine was telling me how his youngest son just built a new house and had a guy some out to install a 4 camera system and an alarm for $1200 odd. I seriously doubt he was getting IP cameras for that price. My friend was seriously considering getting the same for his place until I let me see some old recordings I had previously when I only had 3 IP cams up and he was instantly sold on the idea of an IP camera systems instead. I seriously considered a career in security and surveillance but found it much easier to make a decent living as a hvac tech.

 

[johngalt]

Most of my customers were structured network cabling contractors. Some of them were Integrators, some security system companies, some end users. It was much easier for the integrators to learn how to pull cable than the cabling contractors to learn how to install network devices.

The big security system companies were something else....Bosch analog, all day, everyday. It was like a blast into the 80's every time you'd walk into their offices. They were established and still riding the momentum. They had no intentions on upgrading the technology they pushed to their legacy customers. The big banks just cut the PO's to the same security installers without any concern for going beyond minimum requirements at the lowest possible cost.

A lot of opportunities were lost as soon as someone came in with a boxed, generic 16ch analog system for $2500 installed. The company I worked for had plenty of "literature" for sales calls but would never provide us demo equipment. It was good for a lot of yawns. You want me to sell a $100k of Pelco IP cameras with a brochure? The analog selling trunk slammer just had to plug his camera into a monitor and drop his quote on the table.

 

[whoslooking]

But the story should have changed, but no they make it up as they go along, and run down the world's largest manufacturer of cctv, and brand their equipment as cheap rubbish.

Then there the other side, who sell with false promises and the impossible with products like Avignon (myself not a fan).

Like everthing else the sales in security are sheep, but in the UK they call themselves surveyors this has always made me laugh too.

 

[badmop]

Back in 2005 I think it was, I bought a timelapse VCR and it was like $500
Now I can't even sell that VCR lol

 

[epcjay]

Most of the wal marts in my area are upgrading to axis. Some of the major super markets in my area recently renovated and installed Hikvision It will take time before IP takes over if ever...

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