Worlds First Review - Dahua - IPC-Color4K-X / DH-IPC-HFW5849T1-ASE-LED - Full Color 4K Camera

[CCTVCam]

Only real concern, as long as its not pointing directly at the camera, is a backlight condition. If you have a lot of light facing the camera, objects between the light and the camera will be backlit and be dark facing the camera. You could mitigate that by running the onboard LED's which of course would be facing out away from the camera

You could always move the flood lights. to the same side as the camera tp avoid backlighting. I doubt you'd need more than 1 anyway. The 4Kt is very sensitive. I run one successfully on my back yard with light from a less than 400 lumen bulb and that's a non directional light, so much of the light is lost in the opposite direction! Also if LED, you're existing lights might be dimmable. Although the picture is decent I have a sensor flood light to come on and offer several thousand lumens via a PIR if movement is detected. The 4kt adapts almost instantly to the change with it not being from total darkness and being colour only (no modes or IR filters to switch).

Is the 4k-T two way audio?

No outward audio at all.

I wish Dahua would address this as even basic consumer level cameras have speakers built in. My neighbour with his Ring was able to warn away car theives recently. I've got fancy cameras costing 3 times as much and can't play a warning message, siren noise or speak due to a lack of a speaker. Trying to find a decent accessory speaker is a nightmare - very few exist because virtually every consumer camera has them built in, and they're either cheap and nasty or very very expensive and large horns which make syou look like you own a petrol forecourt (!), and then you have to find amps / pre-amps and fit them inside nearby to power them etc. plus start running cables from the audio connector in the housing. It's all a mess when all you want is basic audio. This has to be one of Dahua's biggest oversights - all their cameras should be supplied 2 way.

They could just build speakers in, and then for large commercial customers with large sites that require public announcement horns, have the audio out connectors mute the internal speaker. Simples.

 

[steve1225]

I wish Dahua would address this as even basic consumer level cameras have speakers built in. My neighbour with his Ring was able to warn away car theives recently. I've got fancy cameras costing 3 times as much and can't play a warning message, siren noise or speak due to a lack of a speaker. Trying to find a decent accessory speaker is a nightmare - very few exist because virtually every consumer camera has them built in, and they're either cheap and nasty or very very expensive and large horns which make syou look like you own a petrol forecourt (!), and then you have to find amps / pre-amps and fit them inside nearby to power them etc. plus start running cables from the audio connector in the housing. It's all a mess when all you want is basic audio. This has to be one of Dahua's biggest oversights - all their cameras should be supplied 2 way.

They going this way..
Most popular 3xxx cams are TIOC (and TIOC-PRO with 1/1.8" sensor!) which have speakers/hybrid dual light + strobe/siren..
Full color bullets (also 4k!) and 180 cams (yes also turret one) have speakers..
One of main -EI NVRs selling point is all arm/disarm/alarm functionality which require speakers..

HIK went with hybrid/dual light + speaker/siren in all lines (value / pro / ultra / DeepinView) and they sell like hot cakes.
Dahua will do the same in next generations of all cam lines..

PS One of the biggest differences between HIK and Dahua is how fast they rotate products to new revisions... HIK is very fast, creates hundreds of new SKUs (model numbers) every year with very small spec sheet differences.. each camera model have usually much shorter product and support life (no new firmwares!). Dahua is much more conservative here - lower number of new SKUs, each line are replaced every 2-4 years, bigger differences between generations, longer support..

we simply need to wait for a new generations...

 

[CCTVCam]

I personally wouldn't touch a TIOC camera. I've had one. Whilst they're great for deterrence purposes, once the flashing lights start, the picture quality is degraded. They also tend to use smaller less capable sensors. As a single point camera as a part of an integrated system of non tioc cameras, they're great for deterrence. But when it comes to detecting people, I'd rather have a non TIOC version.

If Dahua go down the TIOC route for most of their cameras, I'll be switching brands to Hik.

I just want a fabastically capable low light full colour camera with good dof and background detail retreival ie the ability to zoom in without suffering an unusable picture due to aretefacts / macro blocking as with the current 4kt's, high bit rate capability, built in audio in / out, and no expensive to run items or items that burn out over time eg white led lights. Just a good basic camera with fantastic low light picture without any unnecessary frills. AI great. Beyond that no thanks. I can add light with my own lights which are easier and cheaper to replace. I can deter with recorded messages or voice. I don't need strobes that disrupt the image. Dahua should concentrate on making a large sensor low light camera with a narrower aperture, great dof, no compression aretefacts or concentration of low compression on the middle of the picture, just a fantacstic low light full colour with a great picture throughout. Get that right and they'd sell millions.

 

[steve1225]

I personally wouldn't touch a TIOC camera. I've had one. Whilst they're great for deterrence purposes, once the flashing lights start, the picture quality is degraded. They also tend to use smaller less capable sensors. As a single point camera as a part of an integrated system of non tioc cameras, they're great for deterrence. But when it comes to detecting people, I'd rather have a non TIOC version.

If Dahua go down the TIOC route for most of their cameras, I'll be switching brands to Hik.

Everyone on market is going this way...
And You known - You can disable or configure how the light are working...
You can enable only IR.. no white/strobe light..

no one is asking you to arm those cameras - you can use them as classic camera without anti deterrence functionality..
You can configure area (like for IVS) at which camera will deterrent people using siren and/or white/strobe light..

TIOC (Dahua name) or Hybrid (HIK name) cams are simply cams with dual (IR/white) LEDs, speaker and sometimes one extra red/blue LED for strobe.. hardware extra costs for Dahua/HIK is around one dolar (or less), all functionality is simply a firmware thing...

But this is huge selling point, and in house/SMB market they sell as hot cakes..

There is no need to use this functionality.. or You can use in different way (like speaker for 2-way communication)...

ps. old TIOC was using small sensors and wasn't comparable to 5xxx, but now we have TIOC-PRO with 1/1.8" sensors..

I just want a fabastically capable low light full colour camera with good dof and background detail retreival ie the ability to zoom in without suffering an unusable picture due to aretefacts / macro blocking as with the current 4kt's, high bit rate capability, built in audio in / out, and no expensive to run items or items that burn out over time eg white led lights. Just a good basic camera with fantastic low light picture without any unnecessary frills. AI great. Beyond that no thanks. I can add light with my own lights which are easier and cheaper to replace. I can deter with recorded messages or voice. I don't need strobes that disrupt the image. Dahua should concentrate on making a large sensor low light camera with a narrower aperture, great dof, no compression aretefacts or concentration of low compression on the middle of the picture, just a fantacstic low light full colour with a great picture throughout. Get that right and they'd sell millions.

blah blah blah...
You forgot that Dahua is creating cams for mass market..
Not for You, me or us on this forum

They will do WHAT is SELLING in HIGH AMOUNTS with GOOD PROFIT.
So it's cheap to manufacture and You can sell in high numbers with good profit because of some added by Dahua features..
Features which for You or me can be bullshit, but for 99% people / market are main selling point..

ps. from half of year there is a new hardware version of Dahua Color4K cams (Dahua 5849-S2), based on newest 5xxx-S3 chipset / technology (the same as 5442-S3). They work much better that old one, better image processing and video compressing, lots of AI upgrades..

IPC-HDW5849H-ASE-LED - Dahua International

IPC-HDW5849H-ASE-LED

www.dahuasecurity.com

IPC-HFW5849T1-ASE-LED - Dahua International

IPC-HFW5849T1-ASE-LED

www.dahuasecurity.com

Due FCC ban in USA for Dahua/HIK, those new Color4K cams can't be registered and sold in USA.. Similar like a few other new Dahua products..
So Andy is selling older versions.. You can buy this new version outside USA in official Dahua distribution or on some Chinese platforms..

ps. I have new 5449H-ZE-S2 which are Full Color Varifocal with F1.0, which I bought here in Europe.. And I can confirm this is huge upgrade to original Full Color cams..

IPC-HDW5449H-ZE-LED - Dahua International

IPC-HDW5449H-ZE-LED

www.dahuasecurity.com

 

[CCTVCam]

Nah Dahua is creating for the Commercial Market and generally most commercial users aren't swayed by gimmicks.

TIOC has it's place on a single entry point camera in a system that has other cameras recording images either if the deterrence fails, or before it's activated but as a single camera solution, it's not as good in PQ in my opinion, as one that keeps it simple.

As for not using the feature true, you can, but you can't do anything about a low sensitivity sensor. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the reason lower sensitivity sensors seem to be used has something to do with the light from the TIOC feature washing the larger more sensitive sensors out, but I wouldn't know if that's true or simply guess work on my behalf.

BTW very good low light cameras existed in the past, they just weren't affordable at the time because of the sensor / lens size required (see the video below).

To get back on topic though, TIOC has it's place, but if that's on every camera, then I will be buying Hik or whatever brand doesn't go down this route.

The 4Kt's are great, but still have some way to go to come anywhere close to this 2016 Sony, despite 8 years having elapsed meanwhile:

 

[bigredfish]

^^^^
I want to say those were like $5K at the time..?

 

[wittaj]

Looking at the recent releases and anticipated releases, @steve1225 is correct in that this is the direction they are going, even if the homeowner isn't the target market for Dahua, all of their 3rd party OEM sellers do target that market and is what people seem to be wanting.

I was one of the first here to post about a TIOC camera and have been fairly vocal that they are gimmicky, but do serve a purpose for some people, but don't expect it to perform like their better models from an image standpoint. I have one on every corner of my house for the audio deterrent capabilities, along with a better camera next to it. If that can be combined, that would be good thing.

But as pointed out, they are starting to TIOC the better cameras, including the 5442. I don't recall anyone posting a review on one yet and look forward to that and getting my hands on one. I probably won't use the red/blue lights, but the speaker will be a nice addition.

Heck I consider the camera this thread is about as an active deterrence and love the video quality from it.

 

[tigerwillow1]

Due FCC ban in USA for Dahua/HIK, those new Color4K cams can't be registered and sold in USA.. Similar like a few other new Dahua products..
So Andy is selling older versions..

I thought the ban was only for government-related purchases, and there wasn't any general restriction on selling the cameras in USA. This is from the FCC banned list:

Video surveillance and telecommunications equipment produced by Dahua Technology Company, to the extent it is used for the purpose of public safety, security of government facilities, physical security surveillance of critical infrastructure, and other national security purposes, including telecommunications or video surveillance services provided by such entity or using such equipment.

List of Equipment and Services Covered By Section 2 of The Secure Networks Act

 

[steve1225]

The 4Kt's are great, but still have some way to go to come anywhere close to this 2016 Sony, despite 8 years having elapsed meanwhile:

You comparing here Sony Full Frame (43mm so 1.7" diagonal, for comparison 1/1.8" = 0.55" and 1/1.2" = 0,83" ) 12 Mpx cam based on Mirror-less DSLR construction. Something at price 5k USD with lenses.

To 200 USD cctv camera done by Chinese company.

Very unfair...

 

[bigredfish]

These are the only ones that interest me right now, because they have the right sensor. A step in the right direction

WizSense Series - Dahua International

WizSense Series

www.dahuasecurity.com

The extra range of IR and white light on the bullet as usual is why I prefer bullets

WizSense Series - Dahua International

WizSense Series

www.dahuasecurity.com

 

[steve1225]

Looking at the recent releases and anticipated releases, @steve1225 is correct in that this is the direction they are going, even if the homeowner isn't the target market for Dahua, all of their 3rd party OEM sellers do target that market and is what people seem to be wanting.

House market and SMB (small medium Businesses) are the biggest market (by both volume and sales) for both Dahua / HIK.
Of course in main (not OEMs) brands they try to sell also more profesional solutions for bigger companies.

But they have more and more problems with that. Not only in the USA there is ban for Dahua/HIK, the same start happening in UK and other Western countries.

Also bigger companies when do cctv projects, they start from selecting VMS solution first.
For them VMS solution, how it works, how it scales, how easy is to use, what features is offering are the main decision points.
Cameras are usually add-on to VMS. Very often from the same or cooperating brands as VMS (or VMS reseller).

Both Dahua and HIK are trying to get position in VMS market.
But in reality their VMS (Hik Central Pro / DSS PRO) are very weak as standalone VMS. And not universal (they don't work with cams from other companies).

The only solution where DSS Pro shines is situation where You have many local Dahua NVR + Dahua cams installations (in different locations) and You want integrate this into one central managed solution.

But as pointed out, they are starting to TIOC the better cameras, including the 5442. I don't recall anyone posting a review on one yet and look forward to that and getting my hands on one. I probably won't use the red/blue lights, but the speaker will be a nice addition.

I don't think that next generation of 5442 will be called TIOC. TIOC is marketing name for house market / 3xxx line.
But in 99% it will have TIOC features (like hybrid dual light and speaker)..
It cheap for Dahua to add this to 5442..
Also HIK did this in higher lines too.

 

[ipflink]

Not only in the USA there is ban for Dahua/HIK, the same start happening in UK and other Western countries.

This camera is banned in the us? How can they sell it via this website? Unless I misunderstood your post. Also, do they make a PTZ version of this camera?

 

[steve1225]

This camera is banned in the us? How can they sell it via this website? Unless I misunderstood your post. Also, do they make a PTZ version of this camera?

Due ban FCC denied registration of many new HIK / Dahua products like new generation of Full Colors cams (with Color4k-S2 models)..

Without FCC registration You can't sell any electronics in the USA..

 

[alekk]

Yes, unfair comparison between a camera with a a full-frame sensor (with presumably large aperture lens) that cost $5,000 against a $200 consumer cam with a 1/1.8" (or even 1/1.2") sensor.

HOWEVER, as @CCTVCam points out, that was using 2016 technology. While the image looking a bit smeared due to a fair amount of noise reduction, it's still REALLY impressive.

Beating my dead-horse that I think a 1/1.2" sensor (or bigger!) with F/1.0 lens (or some equivalent combo) using latest sensor technology in a vari-focal would be a killer product - i.e. the light-sucking monster ... like that Sony. Sure, there are some DOF challenges ... but somehow the Sony looks pretty decent with a sensor twice the (linear) dimension of a 1/1.2" (all else equal - larger sensor reduces DOF).

I.e. technology has advanced in 8 years ... so given what the Sony showed in 2016 for $5,000, comparable performance should cost considerably less ... big question is how much less! ;-)

I think this would sell like hot-cakes if able to be priced at twice the ~$200 intro consumer price point.

Plus all the "nice-to-have" features (audio, networking, AI, etc.) are now there ... so "just" (easy for me to say!) upgrade the sensor & lens and charge a premium for the light-sucking monster!

 

[steve1225]

Yes, unfair comparison between a camera with a a full-frame sensor (with presumably large aperture lens) that cost $5,000 against a $200 consumer cam with a 1/1.8" (or even 1/1.2") sensor.

HOWEVER, as @CCTVCam points out, that was using 2016 technology. While the image looking a bit smeared due to a fair amount of noise reduction, it's still REALLY impressive.

Top end Axis cam model with 4/3" 12Mpx sensor from Sony and varifocal 4x lenses with normal F1.7-4.0 aperture. 2-2.5K USD price tag.

AXIS Q1808-LE Bullet Camera | Axis Communications

This powerful camera delivers outstanding 4K and ultra-high light sensitivity. It’s available with a wide lens or a tele lens. Plus, with PoE out you can connect and power an additional device.

www.axis.com

 

[bigredfish]

^^^^^
That, I assume, digital zoom was impressive

 

[steve1225]

^^^^^
That, I assume, digital zoom was impressive

More interesting in the same line, Axis have 4Mpx 1/1.8" model with 32x optical varifocal zoom F1.4-4.0 in the same sized chassis.

AXIS Q1806-LE Bullet Camera | Axis Communications

First-class surveillance in 4 MP with 32x zoom

www.axis.com

 

[bigredfish]

Wow !

$1650 from B&H public price so probably $750 as a autoirized dealer

 

[steve1225]

One thing must say - I watched now about 10 different videos from Youtube captured on Axis cams.

they can have latest best Sony image sensors and very good optics..
but image processing in Axis cams is not the best one, comparing to V gen AI-ISP in Dahua (5442-S3/7442-X)..

OK - this is with YouTube compression, but I'm not so impressed.

 

[alekk]

I've seen the AXIS and yes, they are pricey ... but their camera's are in general.

I'm just surprised that after 8 years, a similar capability camera has only come down from $5,000 to $2,000 ... and note the Axis is not even a full-frame sensor. Although I'm guessing with technology improvements, the IQ/low-light performance rivals the Sony full-frame.

I had an iPhone8 (released late/2017) until a few months ago ... got my wife's iPhone 13 hand-me-down when I got her the iPhone15. The price of the iPhone8 (at release) was $700 for the 64GB model. I can currently buy an iPhone15 (128GB) for $800. The low-light performance of the iPhone 15 blows away the iPhone 8 ... it's (literally) night-n-day! ;-)

Perhaps I'm being unrealistic in what is doable (at price point) ... but seems like there is a big market opportunity between the ~$200 consumer price point and the $2,000 top-end.

I.e. take the existing 5442-S3 (with current bells & whistles), how much improved low-light performance can you get (via sensor size/technology and/or lens) for $400/$700/$1000 price points?