Help me Layout my Cameras: Drawings, Pics Enclosed

[Jose R.]

Back again. First let me clear up that I've read the Wiki, Cliff's Notes, lurked on here for a good bit, built my BI machine and have paid my newb dues. Next up on the agenda is laying down wire, so I need to get a general idea of where to run cables before it gets too hot in my Florida attic. I've drawn up where I think is a good start but I've been looking at it for so long that I don't know what else to do with it. I need fresh eyes.

Keep in mind this is not which camera to buy or any of that. I'm not there yet but I have an idea what what I need (Starlights). This thread is to discuss camera locations for proper coverage of the property, and more importantly, the atypical labyrinth of an entrance my house has with the front concrete patio walls. Excuse the condition of the exterior, we are under renovations.

All cam locations are in the soffit about 8 feet up, being the house has concrete block walls and creates a much higher level of difficulty for anything wall-mounted. It also is not as attractive as they really start to become unsightly on the walls.

For now we'll concentrate mostly on the entry area as that's where I'll start with my first few cams and build from there.

See pdf for overall plan showing proposed camera locations. If it's not clear enough, I can try something else.

Pictures:
Overall Entry Shot:



Cam 2 looking at door:


Cam 3 crossing 2:


Cam 1 on the approach (lowest soffit mounting height available)


Lastly, a shot looking out from the door (hoping not having to put a cam here, thoughts?)


Thanks, all. As for the rest of the house, I'm fine to discuss that now, too. Also open to LPR suggestions but I'll take that to the LPR section when the time comes.

See PDF below for house plan:

 

[tangent]

You had to have seen this coming, but cameras can't see through walls and minimizing the amount of wall in the picture is always worth doing. IR light will reflect off the wall and cause problems at night. I'm sure it was just easier to plop a bunch of identical arcs on your drawing than changing the angle of each.

While I think your soffit will work fine in most places, there may be a few locations where putting a camera lower and running conduit up the wall to the attic would make sense. It's a good idea to test locations with an actual camera before you commit.

I'd add a camera or two inside the garage.

The front of the house is a bit challenging. My initial thoughts would be something closer to this:

 

[tangent]

You might like playing with this:
IP Video System Design Tool | Intuitively Design Surveillance Systems with 2D/3D Views

 

[Jose R.]

You had to have seen this coming, but cameras can't see through walls and minimizing the amount of wall in the picture is always worth doing. IR light will reflect off the wall and cause problems at night. I'm sure it was just easier to plop a bunch of identical arcs on your drawing than changing the angle of each.

You know it. In fact, that was drawn up before I knew about you guys and I was looking at a box set with all 2.8mm cameras. As for the cameras pointing at the house, that's leftover from me wanting to verify window/door integrity when the alarm goes off and I'm away. Many times the alarm goes off, indicates a window or door, and I have to run home from work just to check why the alarm went off. As a newb I figured I'd use the cameras to see what's up with my entry points (broken window from golf ball is usually it) and then not have to go home. Every time it's been a false alarm and there was never a need to leave.

I'd really like to be able to look at my windows/doors while still covering the appropriate areas. Skimming them at the edge of the frame might work.

I'd add a camera or two inside the garage.

Absolutely. That will be happening down the line.

The front of the house is a bit challenging. My initial thoughts would be something closer to this:

Thank you so much for this. I know that took you some time and I appreciate it. I was needing the help here being the front is an odd situation for sure.

Everything you added looks doable. The front door cam (magenta) will be a little more challenging if the soffit is too high to be effective. Wall mounting that one is possible but the aesthetics would be something that would have to be worked out.

 

[Jose R.]

You might like playing with this:
IP Video System Design Tool | Intuitively Design Surveillance Systems with 2D/3D Views

Is this what you used for your diagram of my house? I've been playing with around with the software and it looks pretty in-depth. Can I use it for simple diagrams to swap on here? The simpler the diagrams and clearer (like yours), the easier it is to discuss things and be productive.

Overcomplicated posts (like mine) tend to get passed over, heh.

Again, it's appreciated.

 

[tangent]

Is this what you used for your diagram of my house? I've been playing with around with the software and it looks pretty in-depth. Can I use it for simple diagrams to swap on here? The simpler the diagrams and clearer (like yours), the easier it is to discuss things and be productive.

Overcomplicated posts (like mine) tend to get passed over, heh.
Again, it's appreciated.

Posting on the forum is kind of like fishing, you never know what you'll catch, what lure will work, or if the water's too hot. I think people like to see posts like this, but they don't always have time to respond to them.

No, for the forum I usually just make something quick in MS Paint, GIMP, or Paint.NET. In this case I used Paint.NET.

You know it. In fact, that was drawn up before I knew about you guys and I was looking at a box set with all 2.8mm cameras. As for the cameras pointing at the house, that's leftover from me wanting to verify window/door integrity when the alarm goes off and I'm away. Many times the alarm goes off, indicates a window or door, and I have to run home from work just to check why the alarm went off. As a newb I figured I'd use the cameras to see what's up with my entry points (broken window from golf ball is usually it) and then not have to go home. Every time it's been a false alarm and there was never a need to leave.

I'd really like to be able to look at my windows/doors while still covering the appropriate areas. Skimming them at the edge of the frame might work.

Absolutely. That will be happening down the line.

Thank you so much for this. I know that took you some time and I appreciate it. I was needing the help here being the front is an odd situation for sure.

Everything you added looks doable. The front door cam (magenta) will be a little more challenging if the soffit is too high to be effective. Wall mounting that one is possible but the aesthetics would be something that would have to be worked out.

You could always add more motion sensors to the alarm and have it set for cross zoning to cut down false alarms. Another option for looking at doors and windows could be a small ptz camera. Which side of the house gets hit by golf balls most frequently?

I strongly suggest testing camera locations before you install. Don't treat my diagram as absolute, for example you may not want both the red and blue cameras. At the front door, up high at the soffit would beat the funny angle to the left that gets the back of people's heads. 4-5 feet to the right of the front door could also be an option.

Your example shot of "Cam 1" with the top of the wall taking 1/3 of the frame would be very problematic at night.

 

[Jose R.]

Posting on the forum is kind of like fishing, you never know what you'll catch, what lure will work, or if the water's too hot. I think people like to see posts like this, but they don't always have time to respond to them.

Yea I totally get that. It's typical forum fare so you always want to be as concise as possible or it scares away responses. Been doing it for a long time, even before forums. Remember mailing lists, or even usenet or BBS? Yikes.

You could always add more motion sensors to the alarm and have it set for cross zoning to cut down false alarms. Another option for looking at doors and windows could be a small ptz camera. Which side of the house gets hit by golf balls most frequently?

It's never motion that causes the falses. Most are broken windows (glass break sensors), or the rare glitch in the 50-year-old wiring or screens. I got a front door trigger once, and that one had me leaving skid marks from the office to the house, just to find the door closed. GRRRR... In all those cases, I didn't need to go home. Once a golf ball was sent thru a window from the lawn guy mowing the lawn. It wasn't even a golfer! Easily 3 to 4 golf balls a day end up on the lawn. Perks of privacy in a dense town.

Being that I am the last house on the cul-de-sac street which fingers into the golf course, I have golf balls coming from 3 sides of the property (front, garage side and back). Perhaps some trenching and yard cams pointing at the house would be the answer here. Meh. Work.

I strongly suggest testing camera locations before you install. Don't treat my diagram as absolute, for example you may not want both the red and blue cameras. At the front door, up high at the soffit would beat the funny angle to the left that gets the back of people's heads. 4-5 feet to the right of the front door could also be an option.

Yep, this will happen for final mounting positions. I'm thinking the front should have a few angles, that way I get alll the windows in the shot as well (and packages). Burglars can hide behind those walls to work the windows. The neighbor's house was broken into a few months back and the guy tried three windows before he succeeded. The alarm sent him packing. My wife was home and snapped a pic of the car but the plate was covered with a bag. Would have been sweet to have a working driver face cam set up at the time. (cam #14)

Your example shot of "Cam 1" with the top of the wall taking 1/3 of the frame would be very problematic at night.

Yes, the picture is terrible, I was almost running when I took these. The cam would have a better view with no wall in it. Perhaps tho your placement of the purple cam on the right by Cam3 is a better choice. However, I liked that spot (cam 1) because with a tight FOV on that choke point, you can get a good face ID before they start to cover/lower their faces as they get into the corridor, which happens a lot. I will get test shots from real cameras and we'll do a better job of this. Right now I only have a couple 2.8mm cams. I need to get a good varifocal and decide on the front door cam (if a wedge right at the mailbox) or something further away zoomed in.

Again, many thanks!

 

[Jose R.]

I whipped up a test rig and took some sample shots. I have also made a better diagram with your suggestions. I'm polishing everything up and will post up an easier-to-discuss plan. I've got to trim the camera count, it's too high at around 18 currently.

Stay tuned!

 

[Jose R.]

Ok I have laid out everything in a more ordered manner. Learning from the masters of clarity, here's what we got. Rip it apart as you please.

I'd like to keep the cams under 16 total (2-8xPOE Procurve switches and limit PC load), including inside the house and the LPR. The diagram shows 18 cams but I've targeted two that can be deleted. Keep reading.

For now we are only looking at the front of the house, Cams 1-6. The rest are shown to demonstrate how many cams are needed in total. In case more or less are needed elsewhere. We need to take 2 out. (Quickly, the patio cams 12 and 13 are ID cams at the choke points created by the pool. Cam14 observes the entire back of the house, doors and windows.) Cams A and B are interior observation cams: garage and most of the public living area/entries. These are not for ID as the choke point cams cover the most likely points of entry.

Back to the front:

My thoughts, delete cams 3 and 4. Cam 3 doesn't show anything Cam 2 doesn't. Cam 4 is redundant as Cam 1 is at eye level on the wall and can be zoomed into the choke point for face ID further out before they tilt their heads down. Cam 2 will show the overall and what happens in this area. So Cam1 is observation and Cam2 is identification. Cam 2 also has a corridor shot, in case that's preferred.

On to the plan. Pics below that. Have at it! Open to any and all changes and plan revisions.

 

[mat200]

@Jose R. - looking good.

 

[Jose R.]

^^ From the crack dealer himself. Thanks for turning this into a huge affair for me. I just wanted a boxed set and move on with my life. Now, well... Look around heh.

 

[tangent]

I've got to trim the camera count, it's too high at around 18 currently.

That's easy to do on a diagram. It ultimately comes down to your goals and budget. You don't have to see everything, some high quality shots of choke points and high traffic areas go a long way. It sounds like one of your goals is to be able to see if a window is broken / if it's something more. An indoor camera could help you with that. Adding motion detectors and glass break sensors to a cross zone list in your alarm system is also an option meaning it wouldn't alarm without motion inside after a glass break.

What you should probably do is order a few camera models that you're likely to use so you can conduct better tests.

 

[Jose R.]

Thanks, Tangent. Valid points. I'll start looking at some starlight varifocals to place in the front. I'm assuming Andy is still the man in this case. Will update later on!

 

[Jose R.]

Quick update, I've bought a couple of 2231RZ-S's from Andy. These will be used for quick testing of locations and then eventually put to service.

Test rig is up, recording fine, VPN up and running, remote access is flawless, UI3 is incredible. Many props to the developers. I'm at work right now watching my test cam feeds perfectly.

So to a new question regarding this cam layout:

In my camera shopping I've seen Andy has some PTZ's that are reasonably priced. Might a couple of PTZ's (laid out below in grey) be a good idea to replace some cameras? For example camera 10 that would have to placed out in the yard (never ideal) could be replaced with a PTZ on the patio ceiling. This can be used for checking the back windows/doors (what 10 is for) when needed while normally watching the choke point (perhaps also replace cam 9?) or using to track fence jumping golfers.

In front we could replace cam 4 and/or cam 16 and use the PTZ to track cars in the cul-de-sac? The zoom should help catch cars coming up/leaving down the street.

Would you add any of these? Would you do it somewhere else? Would you use a different camera? I read thru many PTZ threads and this seems like a good choice for some locations...

 

[tangent]

Quick update, I've bought a couple of 2231RZ-S's from Andy. These will be used for quick testing of locations and then eventually put to service.

Test rig is up, recording fine, VPN up and running, remote access is flawless, UI3 is incredible. Many props to the developers. I'm at work right now watching my test cam feeds perfectly.

So to a new question regarding this cam layout:

In my camera shopping I've seen Andy has some PTZ's that are reasonably priced. Might a couple of PTZ's (laid out below in grey) be a good idea to replace some cameras? For example camera 10 that would have to placed out in the yard (never ideal) could be replaced with a PTZ on the patio ceiling. This can be used for checking the back windows/doors (what 10 is for) when needed while normally watching the choke point (perhaps also replace cam 9?) or using to track fence jumping golfers.

In front we could replace cam 4 and/or cam 16 and use the PTZ to track cars in the cul-de-sac? The zoom should help catch cars coming up/leaving down the street.

Would you add any of these? Would you do it somewhere else? Would you use a different camera? I read thru many PTZ threads and this seems like a good choice for some locations...

View attachment 41846

Some other camera models:
IPC-HDW5231R-ZE has built in mic

Could be interesting near the front door, in the garage, or elsewhere. Slightly lower IP rating than some models (hurricanes), not as good at night.
Review-Dahua IPC-HFW1831C-PIR 4k Mini Bullet
IPC-HFW1831C-PIR 8MP WDR IR Mini Bullet Network Camera / Active Deterrence Overview

Wedge mini dome IPC-HDBW4231F-AS, garage, porch. Similar Hik model with a different approach to the IR: IPCT - Crazy Sale on IP Cam Talk 4 MP IR Fixed Mini Dome Network Camera, 2.8mm - $119.99
You can mix and match brands.

A Hikvision or Dahua "Cube" style camera like the K35 could also work well in the garage.

IPC-HFW4239T-ASE (Full Color Starlight) Fixed focus 3.6 mm or 6mm.


PTZs come in different sizes, there are some really tiny ones like the SD1A203T and related models, mid size, all the way up the the large dangling rugby ball speed domes. I'd consider PTZs in locations that you feel are overkill but necessary to check on windows.

I know you're trying to reduce the number of cameras, but one other place you could put one would be the corner opposite 4 by the wall

 

[Jose R.]

Tangent, as usual, thanks for the response. I'll take a harder look at those cams. The wedge I had planned on using at the door at about 5' high. It will be a difficult install but it's a critical location so that will happen.

Your PTZ 4 opposite corner is a good choice. I had chosen the original Cam 4 corner since it can also look back at the garage/shed (high priority points) and take advantage of the 270-degree potential viewing area. If one were to get a little trigger happy, one could replace Cam 4 and 5 with a PTZ and break the more cams is better rule. Cam 12 and 3 could set the triggers for the PTZ and essentially properly cover everything. But, we know the rules regarding that. Obviously we'd be talking a larger speed dome here with decent tracking.

The test rig is working great. I have a test cam ($25 Q-see from a deal Mat posted) pointing out of a window in the backyard (IR shut off) and watching sunsets/clouds/planes at 124x are stunning to behold. The other cam is in the main living area in the house (Cam 15) and we're quickly learning that having that recording 24/7 might be dangerous. Might have to geofence that one but I'd hate to miss something important should it happen.

I do get random page crashes in UI3 when reviewing clips. I'll have to look into that later but it's pretty consistent.

My new cams come in today from Andy so I'm going to test with those for a bit an report back!

Thanks, again! Moving along smoothly!

 

[tangent]

You can potentially use your alarm system to decide when inside recordings happen and only record on alarm or armed away.

 

[Jose R.]

You can potentially use your alarm system to decide when inside recordings happen and only record on alarm or armed away.

Not a bad idea. I have a Vista 20P panel I installed myself so setting that up shouldn't be difficult provided that panel allows for it easily. That's down the line anyhow but will keep it in mind. Thanks!