Camera guidance

[jmburton2001]

Hello!

We've been running a 10 camera setup for a few years hardwired to Blue Iris. We love the setup and it functions exactly like we want. We just built a new house and want to have a similar setup but would like to improve the cameras. Right now we run all Foscam units (FI8918W, FI8904W, FI8905W, FI8906W) and haven't been too happy with their resolution or IR. We've gone through all the suggestions and even tried to manually adjust the lens focus with very little success. We're going to leave/abandon our current system and want to start over in the new house.

We'll buy a new computer and also install Blue Iris and we'll need about 9 to 10 cameras. We need guidance on the cameras. We believe we'll need the following:

Indoor - 4 stationary dome type cameras with sound and IR that can be wall mounted.
Front porch - 1 Dome type with PTZ, sound, and reasonable IR distance that can be wall mounted.
House corners - 4 or 5 (dome or otherwise) with PTZ and sound and reasonable IR distance.

Optimally we'd like cameras that can count the hairs on a fly's leg in total darkness... but we also want them to be affordable.

Thank you in advance for your input and guidance!

Also - Our current setup has the house corner cameras pointing down the side of the house (to the back of the next camera) so that the entire perimeter is covered. Is there a better way of doing this?

 

[fenderman]

There are many choices. But Please don't purchase and operate a substandard Network IP Camera System for a new home.

Please take some time to compare any suggestions anyone makes. Before actully making any purchses and try to see Network IP Camera equipment in action if possible and read as many reviews about anything you are thinking of purchasing as well. The extra time doing this. Will be time well spent.

Don

Bunch of nonsense and fear mongering. If you are using blue iris there is no need for firmware updates on the camera - keep in mind that if you purchase via ali or amazon you will not be able to update firmware on US region cameras. One thing for certain. Do yourself a HUGE favor and stay away from foscam. You can read the threads and determine where you wish to purchase your cameras from. Keep in mind that you can purchase US region hikvision cameras for 119 or the new 4mp for 140-150 both of which will surpass anything foscam has to offer. Dahua is another good option.
You will need a modern haswell i7 to run 10 multi megapixel cameras on blue iris.

 

[fenderman]

The facts in the link in my prior post speak for themselves. Anyone who can make a claim that there never is and never will need be an reason to ever upgrade firmware for Network IP Camera equipment, is a , and not a good one or accurate one at that!

I will let others read the information in the link in my prior post here and allow them to use their common sense.

Don

Linking to a post that YOU wrote in another forum does not make anything "fact". This is the end of the discussion on this subject in this thread. You are well aware that there is another thread on this subject in this forum and you can post your opinions there.

 

[fenderman]

People can use their common sense fenderman. As they will!

Don

yes they will.

 

[Del Boy]

Indoor - 4 stationary dome type cameras with sound and IR that can be wall mounted.
Front porch - 1 Dome type with PTZ, sound, and reasonable IR distance that can be wall mounted.
House corners - 4 or 5 (dome or otherwise) with PTZ and sound and reasonable IR distance.

Indoor - DS-2CD2432F-IW Cubes (I know not domes but has sound... check them out)
Front porch - Do you really need PTZ? If not DS-2CD2142FWD-IS + Microphone
House corners - Again Good PTZ cameras are really really expensive, do you need sound? DS-2CD2342WD-I

The outside stuff is the new WDR Hikvision range, so you'll get really good low-light and night performance.

Dahua alternative: Outdoors: IPC-HDW4300C, all have built in microphone.

If you want PTZ you really need a speed dome, you're looking at $600+ for cameras then.

 

[jmburton2001]

Thank you both for your responses. We want to be in the $200 ~ $300 (maybe more) range for the PTZ, IR outdoor cams and under $150 for the indoor stationary cams. We tried a few off brand "cheap" cameras and decided that wasn't for us. At this point we're only interested in "name brand" cameras that have proven reliability and quality. When we finally decide how we want to go, we'll go to the manufacturer's site and find out if we can buy directly or go through an authorized reseller.

We've been looking at footage shot with Hikvision and Dahua cameras and they seem like they produce high resolution images. We've had a few incidents over the years that made us wish that the Foscam footage was clearer and therefore don't want to continue with them.

Fenderman - Thanks for the suggestion for using a Haswell i7 in the computer. Are there any AMD chips you'd recommend? We were thinking about a system with at least 16MB ram and probably 8TB of storage. Our internal network will be gigabit, so that should be sufficient.

 

[fenderman]

Thank you both for your responses. We want to be in the $200 ~ $300 (maybe more) range for the PTZ, IR outdoor cams and under $150 for the indoor stationary cams. We tried a few off brand "cheap" cameras and decided that wasn't for us. At this point we're only interested in "name brand" cameras that have proven reliability and quality. When we finally decide how we want to go, we'll go to the manufacturer's site and find out if we can buy directly or go through an authorized reseller.

We've been looking at footage shot with Hikvision and Dahua cameras and they seem like they produce high resolution images. We've had a few incidents over the years that made us wish that the Foscam footage was clearer and therefore don't want to continue with them.

Fenderman - Thanks for the suggestion for using a Haswell i7 in the computer. Are there any AMD chips you'd recommend? We were thinking about a system with at least 16MB ram and probably 8TB of storage. Our internal network will be gigabit, so that should be sufficient.

AMD is a poor choice for NVR's. They are inefficient. There are several threads discussing dell outlet business machines...an optiplex 7020 with an i7-4790 can be had for under 500 and with a three year next business day warranty - you cannot build it for less. AMD should not be considered. Blue iris will not need or use that much ram...8 is way more than sufficient.

 

[jmburton2001]

Looks like I have some research to do!

 

[jmburton2001]

Indoor - DS-2CD2432F-IW Cubes (I know not domes but has sound... check them out)
Front porch - Do you really need PTZ? If not DS-2CD2142FWD-IS + Microphone
House corners - Again Good PTZ cameras are really really expensive, do you need sound? DS-2CD2342WD-I

The outside stuff is the new WDR Hikvision range, so you'll get really good low-light and night performance.

Dahua alternative: Outdoors: IPC-HDW4300C, all have built in microphone.

If you want PTZ you really need a speed dome, you're looking at $600+ for cameras then.

Thank you!

I'm going to look into these further as I get time. We will probably opt for at least 2 of the high dollar PTZ speed domes. Our experience (and our disappointment) with our Foscams has made us want some high quality PTZ cameras outside.

What cameras do you personally use, and are you happy with them?

 

[Del Boy]

Thank you!

I'm going to look into these further as I get time. We will probably opt for at least 2 of the high dollar PTZ speed domes. Our experience (and our disappointment) with our Foscams has made us want some high quality PTZ cameras outside.

What cameras do you personally use, and are you happy with them?

I've sorted out family and friends, so have tried alot of cameras.

Hikvision: Lots of 3MP stuff (as this is effectively the yard stick), now got 4MP WDR ones which I'm playing with at the moment. They seem quite a step up (noise is much lower). 2532 mini dome which I have not recommended for you I was disappointed with.

Dahua: 1.3MP HFW2100 is a personal favourite for really dark places. HDW4300C I find is amazing in the dark as long as there is somewhere to reflect it's IR back. I haven't tried any 4MP Dahua stuff yet.

Others: I've got a few Sony IMX322 sensor'd cameras which are amazing. They are 2MP but incredibly low noise so there's more detail when you zoom than the 3MP. I'll hopefully be putting up a comparison to the new Hikvision 4MP WDR stuff.

PTZ: Hands-down the best camera I've got and a great toy too. It's sensor is one down from the Sony IMX322 (I've got last year's model) but the lens more than makes up for it. But a bit of an overkill for residential. But cost £400, so you pay for what you get!

Bottom line is though... you can't go too far wrong with Dahua, Hikvision or if you are in the US sourcing from @milkisbad, but if I was you, I'd pay the extra for the WD models.

Why not get a dedicated Dahua or Hikvision NVR if you get their cameras?

 

[The_Penguin]

The facts in the link in my prior post speak for themselves. Anyone who can make a claim that there never is and never will be any need or reason to ever upgrade firmware for Network IP Camera equipment, is a fortune teller, and not a good one or accurate one at that!

I will let others read the information in the link in my prior post here and allow them to use their common sense.

Don

I agree with Fenderman, bunch of paranoid drivel.
But are we really re-hashing this AGAIN?

There is nothing wrong with "grey market" cameras with "kluged" firmware. I have 7 Hiks, 5 of them "Grey market" and I don't foresee EVER upgrading the firmware.
And if for some reason I need to, Ill do my homework, and do what's needed to make it work. My Hiks would be out of warranty by now had I purchased from a U.S. authorized reseller, and guess what? All working just fine.

I'd rather pay $88.00 each for 5 cameras, even if there's no warranty, than $150.00 each for the same cameras with support and warranty.

 

[The_Penguin]

Indoor - 4 stationary dome type cameras with sound and IR that can be wall mounted.
Front porch - 1 Dome type with PTZ, sound, and reasonable IR distance that can be wall mounted.

I don't think anyone mentioned this yet, domes can be a bit limited in their adjustabilty, so do some checking calculating before you commit to domes.
Turrets can be a happy medium between bullets and domes.

 

[fenderman]

Sadly, Hikvision does not agree. So I guess their also paranoid and full of silly nonsense.

That said. Their statement above, does not even deal with any sanctity of any custom firmware installed by "Grey Market" sellers being totally free of malware since you must also feel that all of them happen to create their own custom firmware or always can be trusted to have 3rd parties create any firmware they need installed ("Prior a purchase") for their Hikvision "Gray Market" products they sell which are required to operate in your preferred language, in many if not most cases.

I guess you would call that drivel as well?

In any event. Since this topic in the forum is titled what it is Camera guidance and because this is a forum and not a blog with comments disabled. I felt it was appropriate to state what I have said here and feel no shame for doing so.

Don

Stop posing on this subject..you can post in the other thread. This is not the place.

 

[jmburton2001]

I've sorted out family and friends, so have tried alot of cameras.

Good to know! I'm glad you're speaking from extensive experience. I rely on that!

Hikvision: Lots of 3MP stuff (as this is effectively the yard stick), now got 4MP WDR ones which I'm playing with at the moment. They seem quite a step up (noise is much lower). 2532 mini dome which I have not recommended for you I was disappointed with.

Dahua: 1.3MP HFW2100 is a personal favourite for really dark places. HDW4300C I find is amazing in the dark as long as there is somewhere to reflect it's IR back. I haven't tried any 4MP Dahua stuff yet.

Others: I've got a few Sony IMX322 sensor'd cameras which are amazing. They are 2MP but incredibly low noise so there's more detail when you zoom than the 3MP. I'll hopefully be putting up a comparison to the new Hikvision 4MP WDR stuff.

PTZ: Hands-down the best camera I've got and a great toy too. It's sensor is one down from the Sony IMX322 (I've got last year's model) but the lens more than makes up for it. But a bit of an overkill for residential. But cost £400, so you pay for what you get!

Bottom line is though... you can't go too far wrong with Dahua, Hikvision or if you are in the US sourcing from @milkisbad, but if I was you, I'd pay the extra for the WD models.

I'm starting to study up on these. When you say WD models, are you referring to the Hikvision brand cameras?
I've looked at the demo output for a 2MP Hikvision DS-2DF7284-A (video link below) and it seems like it's pretty high quality.
Should we be looking at 3 - 4 MP instead at this point? We don't want to be bleeding edge, but we also don't want to be archaic.

Why not get a dedicated Dahua or Hikvision NVR if you get their cameras?

Three Four reasons:

1. We may use some cheapo cameras (or USB cams) in places where they're either in tight spaces or don't require high quality video.
2. The SO says so! range: (She likes Blue Iris, and at this point... zero learning curve!)
3. Blue Iris will handle one AND two.
4. Reason 2 trumps any other reasons.

 

[alastairstevenson]

Sadly, Hikvision does not agree. So I guess they're also paranoid and full of silly nonsense.

In the UK and the EU, this sort of blatant scare-mongering would likely lead to some intervention from the Competition Commissioner. Or even the OFT and the ASA.
Anyone would think there is a massive field failure rate that needs intensive support. If there was, buyers would vote with their feet, they are not stupid.
The 'unauthorised resellers' are doing the user base a big service by providing products at fair prices that actually work better than those officially bought at the inflated prices of 'authorised distributors'.
That's a win/win.
I'm sure the resellers would be flattered at this description of their firmware modders lol "all of them happen to create their own custom firmware which is certified by their technical firmware in-house developers as malware free"
Feel free to provide a link to an example of a reseller modified Hikvision firmware that's been laced with malware.

 

[whoslooking]

With over 27 years of nothing but CCTV, Access control, fire & and Security under my belt, one of the only non American people to provide security on a major US embassy, I can say say after reading this post, you should listen to @fenderman & @Del Boy and totally ignore comets made
by @TheUberOverLord any system you should choice should be simple and fit for purpose, blue iris is a very good program, so is IVMS, but neither IMHO would ever replace having an NVR in there too, they cost less to run and if your product matching they work so well together, just look at it like it's your safe to keep all that's important to you in.

 

[fenderman]

@whoslooking, spot on...I differ only on the NVR recommendation...you could not pay me enough to use standalone NVR's unless its used as a 24/7 backup.....if you are someone who likes options and use blue iris for alerts and scheduling there is simply no way to go back to standalone units...for the average end user, a simple NVR is the way to go.

 

[Del Boy]

Don, can we just agree to take this argument/discussion back to the other thread or start a new thread or something. jmburton2001 has asked for some help on models and that's what I'm trying to do as part of our community. If he then wishes to explore the merits (or demerits) of the grey market then we can start discussing the pros and cons for the umtenth time.

Back on subject:

(quick note: I've linked to Hikvision Overseas (which is basically Europe) and not Hikvison USA because some products aren't on the USA website, I've also linked to a UK supplier because i) it's easier for me than trying to copy the embedded content and ii) I don't want to plagiarise their stuff, but it's the same for the USA sourced models)

When I say WD models, I mean Hikvision models ending in WD e.g. DS-2CD2042WD-I these have >120dB WDR and are much better in low-light.

Here's some video comparisons:
3MP DS-2CD2032-I vs 4MP WDR DS-2CD2042WD-I - Hikvision website
3MP EXIR DS-2CD2332-I vs 4MP WDR EXIR DS-2CD2342WD-I - Hikvision website
3MP DS-2CD2132F-IS vs 4MP WDR DS-2CD2142FWD-I - Hikvision website

I'm guessing your budget is big enough to go for the "WD" models as I put it. The difference between the 2032 and 2042WD is like night-and-day. The difference in price is also like night-and-day! You might not want bleeding edge but I think the 4MP WDR range is the closest to getting to this: "Optimally we'd like cameras that can count the hairs on a fly's leg in total darkness... but we also want them to be affordable."

I'm hopefully going to be posting my own comparison videos on here soon. As soon as I get half-a-day of free time and some nice weather.

I have this 2MP PTZ from the UK supplier. It's amazing and I think the video looks better than the 2MP Hikvision DS-2DF7284-A but I have no idea where to get one in the US sorry. I just think the Hikvision PTZ is overpriced and that if you do some research you will hopefully find a much better value one.

Cheap cameras: Dahua IPC-HFW2100 is a great camera for low-light areas and has been getting cheaper since 3MP prices have come down. EDIT: These are cheap alternative to the HFW2100, see my next post regards seller: HDW4120S Ali link

I looked for the 4MP ones on Nellys etc but couldn't find it. If you like any of these, then I still think your best bet is to copy the link and PM it to @milkisbad and see what equivalent he has in US stock.

As for the last two posts: I'm pro-NVR for consumers and pro-DS-2CD2032/2042WD bullet (mainly because of looks, I like discreet). One day I'll install BlueIris, but for now it's overkill So we do disagree on stuff! (Also I know the least out of the three mentioned)

My mini-disclosure-disclaimer: I have both "grey market" and "UK" models (which are actually Western Region), neither have given me any issues.

 

[Del Boy]

Continued: If you want something cheaper than these IPC-HDBW4421R-AS (Ali link) seem amazing value, but I've not used them yet and I doubt they are as good as WDR stuff. I've used CCTV Camera China and been happy, as have others here if you use the search function.

Edit: Crap... just noticed HDBW4421R-AS has got 120dB WDR, looks like I'm going to order a couple from CCTV Camera China and give them ago. Fingers crossed that Parcelforce don't charge me a fortune.

 

[whoslooking]

@whoslooking, spot on...I differ only on the NVR recommendation...you could not pay me enough to use standalone NVR's unless its used as a 24/7 backup.....if you are someone who likes options and use blue iris for alerts and scheduling there is simply no way to go back to standalone units...for the average end user, a simple NVR is the way to go.

Not replacing the PC but also including, in my system designs I will always allow for 2 points of storage the NVR is normally the secure location point of storage hence the term the SAFE. this point has limited access to users and most of the time, if a large premises most of the users of the system have no idea about it or it's location.