New system help please

N

nebo

Young grasshopper
Mar 6, 2016
60
4
Indiana
Great forum and thanks to many already for much guidance and ideas!
I'm not sure if this is the correct sub-forum since I'm looking for entire system help. Hope it's fine here.

I'm a journeyman HVAC tech, so all this is new and different for me. I have really enjoyed many overwhelming hours of research on your forum, but now I think I'm ready for specific to me help.

Sorry for the crude picture. I hope its viewable for you. It is only an initial starting point, and very much up for changes. Also, all the numbered points below are mostly questions, and definitely feel free to comment or hack them up all you want.

Homecamera.png
1) Use cat5e solid copper direct burial in conduit underground and hidden in J-channel siding on house. Will borrow a friends crimp tools/tester etc that runs cat5e for a living. http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=12728

2) Want to store data on NVR for at least 14 days.

3) Constant record at night. Motion during the day.

4) 16ch NVR. Start with 9 cameras. Run a LTS or Hik NVR with separate power injectors ( http://wifi-texas.com/) and WD purple hard drive/s. Is this good idea?

5) Run all cables and order only a few cameras to see how each lense performs at different locations. Start with a 2.8, 4, and 6. Then work more into the budget later. Most cameras would be turret under eaves. Bullet on barn up high.

6) No home wifi. So only need to record. No need for notification or emails. Keep it simple.

7) Would like a good user interface on a flat screen tv, monitor, or mobile phone.

8) Would like ability to quickly scan to see recorded activity. Motion record at day, constant record at night.

9) Date/time stamp on screen.

10) Run a Hik or LTS NVR with separate power injectors ( http://wifi-texas.com/) and WD purple hard drive. Seen the online storage calc to get rough idea of needed space.

11) I started with the package deals at lowes, sams club and menards….and then I found you all….budget hasn’t really changed…….$1000 to $1500 hopefully.

This is just a start i'm sure, but thank you so very much for any help!
 
1) Wire looks good as you want to avoid CCA at all costs. Monoprice is also a great vendor to work with. People from the networking community frown upon crimp connectors primarily for the base principle of human error. One cannot perfectly control how the wires fit and crimp into the connector, which could introduce variance in line quality from connector to connector, which in turn theoretically *could* induce packet loss. They must reach the absolute end of the connector when pushing them in, and you want as little untwisting as possible to best maintain the connection. Ethernet relies on the twists for data to travel, so the less straight wire, the better. The "proper" way to do it is put keystone jacks on everything and use pre-made patch cords. With that being said, I personally have never once used the proper method when it comes to CCTV for a few reasons:

1) it looks tacky (this has no throwing weight whatsoever, but I'm stating it anyways)
2) I have yet to find a way to maintain a water seal with a keystone jack and patch cord besides shoving it in an enclosure of some sort (with crimp connectors, Hikvision has a thread-on water seal included with every camera that seems to work well, I've never had an corrosion issues)
3) a peg off of 2, but requires more box volume to accommodate the extra wire and connector bulk. Not really a deal breaker, but something to consider when designing things

I've never once had a line issue with any of the cameras going the crimp-on route and they are much simpler to work with (if you get the crimping down pat of course), but felt you deserve to know the difference and the whys and why nots so you can make an informed decision on your own. I've been crimping them for many many years so it's second nature to me.

2,3 and 4) I would think a 4TB Purple would be fine, worst case you might need a second one, but no more than that based on your desired schedule. I've never been one to calculate these out because I'll buy a whole lot of purples and just dish them out to recorders as needed. You definitely need a 16 if you're breaking the 8CH mark, and even so, with how large of property it looks like you're trying to cover, I'd still recommend it anyways for future proofing. I have 4 4TB Purples running 8 cameras on motion only and it holds video all the way back to August 2015.

5) I am not an expert when it comes to camera focal length, but the smaller the lens, the more zoomed out you are and greater coverage area you get. the tradeoff is you won't get close up details. 4mm is the standard default lens, Hikvisions are made from 2.8mm to 12mm, with their varifocals having an even greater range (I want to say they can go to 16mm, but not sure). Field of view and range are at opposite ends of the spectrum, with 4mm being about in the middle.

7) Hikvision recorders let you customize the matrix camera grid in settings so upon each power up it defaults to a specific camera arrangement. If you're using HDMI your display will look very nice.

8) Playback isn't bad and on motion is very easy to manipulate with color-idenfied scroll bars indicating type of recording activity (continuous, motion, etc), exporting is where it could be a little easier (exports as a bunch of small clips when using motion, continuous works great).

9) All Hikvision IP cams have date/time stamp on each camera with a completely customizable OSD. For example, if your date stamp covers up say, your front door, where you want to see details, you can drag it somewhere else in view so it's out of the way. You can also add additional text to the camera as well. The NVR itself does not have a date stamp, however. You just see the date stamps of the individual cameras on your matrix.

10) If your cameras are short enough distance from the NVR, you might as well use the built in PoE switch. Otherwise, PoE as well as Category cable in general for data communications have a max distance of 100m (~328ft) per span. A separate injector won't be of much use unless powering remotely (away from the NVR). Even so, the 100m limit still applies to a non-powered ethernet line as well. Anything further than that, you need to use RG-6 coax with media converters to get data service beyond that 100m cap. Depending on the media converter (MoCA, DECA, HPNA, etc), they can get somewhat expensive. I put some cool ones in at work that do PoE as well. I never saw the price tag on them nor do I want to, because I know they are expensive per pair.

PS. My dad does exactly what you do for a living. (Primarily at the large-scale, commercial level). I learned way more than I wanted to about that kind of stuff, unfortunately teaching him this kind of stuff is rather painful. I do try, though.
 
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Wow. Thanks for your time and also thanks for all the info, @CoreyX64!!!!
I'm with your dad. This is tough, but I'm determined to get as much info as possible!
When I get back to a desk tomorrow morning, I'm going to write some notes down out of your post for reference later. I'm trying to put all my goals and equipment I choose in one location. I hope to have hardware narrowed down soon and post to see what everyone has to say. Just need to select a certain brand and go with it. Hik is very popular, but Milk sent me a good catalog with LTS as an option too. Thanks again so much, Corey!
 
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nebo said:
Wow. Thanks for your time and also thanks for all the info, @CoreyX64!!!!
I'm with your dad. This is tough, but I'm determined to get as much info as possible!
When I get back to a desk tomorrow morning, I'm going to write some notes down out of your post for reference later. I'm trying to put all my goals and equipment I choose in one location. I hope to have hardware narrowed down soon and post to see what everyone has to say. Just need to select a certain brand and go with it. Hik is very popular, but Milk sent me a good catalog with LTS as an option too. Thanks again so much, Corey!
Click to expand...

LTS and Hikvision are one in the same regarding hardware overall. (different companies, but LTS is an OEM brand of Hikvision products) I personally am not one for rebranded hardware for a variety of reasons, but LTS is one of the few exceptions where I would consider it. They have great support. Nelly's Security is another great place to order from as well. Nelly's sells unbranded Hikvision equipment (Hikvision without the logo on it basically). It is identical to branded hardware and still includes the same 3 year warranty. Ironically, Hikvision is the absolute last place you will want to go for support for Hikvision products. Yes, I mean that. Resellers, distributors, and on here are your best chance of resolving issues. I personally venture off to eBay and beyond to fetch genuine Hikvision branded equipment, but that's only because I know exactly what I want and what to look out for. (see below)

The biggest thing to avoid is Chinese-regioned devices. These are often easy to spot by arriving in a brown box vs a color box (although my last chinese camera purchase came with color boxes), the listing says multilanguage firmware and/or can't be upgraded, and sometimes will indicate that they aren't compatible with US-regioned NVRs. Fact of the matter is, if they are shipped pre-patched to the US region (most all of them are now), they will work with US NVRs. I buy large quantities of Chinese-regioned Hikvision cameras and every one works perfectly out of the box. The key is to never touch the camera firmware. For the most part, you will never have the need to. Tampering with firmware upgrades on these will remove the English-Chinese patch and will throw up a flag on Hikvision NVRs and software to where they are "incompatible." NVRs on the other hand, I never ever purchase chinese regioned. I will purchase them from China to save $, but I always ensure they are US regioned devices. I've stuck with this purchasing arrangement for 2 years now, all of the NVRs I continually update the firmware as needed, and everything still works.

The biggest difference is the price is slightly cheaper (significant savings when purchased in large quantities because it adds up quickly), and the support is better when marked up through a reseller like LTS or Nelly's. With that being said, I only ever had a firmware issue with *one* chinese camera, and the seller emailed me back the next day with a firmware update fix, and I was good to go. This is and will always be a hot button issue on here, but seeing as you are new, it would be best to stick with LTS, Nelly's, etc. Yes you are going to pay much more than I do when comparing per unit cost (both because of the support and because you aren't buying a ton of them), but if ANYTHING goes wrong, they will help you. While I cannot personally attest to LTS, many others on here who have worked with them can, and if the general consensus says they are a reputable dealer (everything about them sounds very legit), I take their word for it. I have personally dealt with Nelly's Security in the past year or two, and their support is superb. Never had any RMA issues or anything, mostly just software questions that I could not figure out at the time. To my knowledge it's just a 3 man shop (or at least it seems that way), all very friendly and helpful regardless of your knowledge on the matter.
 
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That's good info @CoreyX64. I do believe I will stay Nellys or LTS since I'm not heavy in this and definitely ok to spend a few more dollars to be sure and get good support. I sure appreciate your time and input! This definitely makes me feel more confident in what I'm looking at.
 
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No problem. If you have any other questions, please post back. Best wishes!


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CoreyX64 said:
10) If your cameras are short enough distance from the NVR, you might as well use the built in PoE switch. Otherwise, PoE as well as Category cable in general for data communications have a max distance of 100m (~328ft) per span. A separate injector won't be of much use unless powering remotely (away from the NVR). Even so, the 100m limit still applies to a non-powered ethernet line as well. Anything further than that, you need to use RG-6 coax with media converters to get data service beyond that 100m cap. Depending on the media converter (MoCA, DECA, HPNA, etc), they can get somewhat expensive. I put some cool ones in at work that do PoE as well. I never saw the price tag on them nor do I want to, because I know they are expensive per pair.
Click to expand...
@CoreyX64, my longest run will be the 3 cameras to the barn at 200'. When I was looking at the LTS catalog, I noticed some of them did not have built in POE. Which made me think since I am on a lightning prone hillside, then maybe having the power injector as a separate device would help as far as troubleshooting and replacing a separate component if I have a problem, rather than taking out the whole NVR and POE combo. I would assume it would cost more for separate devices, but maybe save me down the road?
 
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PoE or non-PoE, lightning will always take the nearest path to ground. Whether or not the Ethernet line is powered, it is an equally viable lightning rod to kill everything in the circuit from camera to NVR and sometimes beyond. 200ft should be fine with normal Hikvision PoE through the NVR's switch. Injectors aren't terribly expensive, but say you need to reboot things, having the NVR switch powering the cameras allows you to reboot NVR and cams together.

If the cameras don't have PoE then they're likely powered by 12VDC which means you'll need to utilize a separate dedicated power supply for those cameras. I've only ever had a problem with 1 Hikvision PoE switch, and that's because the customer dumped an entire pot of coffee on the recorder. The PoE is shot, but believe it or not that recorder still works.


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CoreyX64 said:
PoE or non-PoE, lighting will always take the nearest path to ground. Whether or not the Ethernet line is powered, it is an equally viable lighting rod to kill everything in the circuit from camera to NVR and sometimes beyond. 200ft should be fine with normal Hikvision PoE through the NVR's switch. Injectors aren't terribly expensive, but say you need to reboot things, having the NVR switch powering the cameras allows you to reboot NVR and cams together.

If the cameras don't have PoE then they're likely powered by 12VDC which means you'll need to utilize a separate dedicated power supply for those cameras. I've only ever had a problem with 1 Hikvision PoE switch, and that's because the customer dumped an entire pot of coffee on the recorder. The PoE is shot, but believe it or not that recorder still works.


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Click to expand...
Thanks Corey! Sounds like your advice leads me towards a POE NVR with POE cameras. I guess I assumed all IP cameras were POE. Wow, the details are mind blowing. I will post what I pick out before I purchase, to be sure I have the correct hardware for what I think I'm doing.lol. Thanks again!

edit: since this post, much research and guidance has led me to use switches at the two extra buildings. more than likely a non POE NVR.
 
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Thanks much for the recommendation @code2! I have seen those and i'm taking them into consideration. I have access to top quality crimp tools and a tester, so not sure which route I'll go yet.
code2 said:
do yourself a favor

use these

http://www.amazon.com/Platinum-Tools-100015-Connector-Clamshell/dp/B0009JCVI6 obviously use the right connector tho for the cable 5, 5e or 6 or 7 if inclined

and invest in this for above

http://www.amazon.com/Platinum-Tool..._UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=0GN587VCFPKRSJH29A1F

It makes like simple stupid
Click to expand...
 
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Personally I've always used regular crimpers with the cheap RJ45's and have not had any problems with them whatsoever (early on I did, but I've crimped so many over the years I have it down to a science). Those are easier to work with and obviously save you time, so naturally you make up for it in the price. I think we pay maybe <$4 for every 100 connectors? Something ridiculously cheap. Although honestly as long as you aren't trying to shove CAT6 (23AWG) into a CAT5/5e connector (24AWG), it's not all that painful. Unless you plan on doing tons of these, borrow the tools from your IT guy at work. I've loaned mine on occasion to people way less tech savvy and a quick 5 minute crash course seemed to get them by. It's a security camera, not a trunkline.

Technically, crimp connectors of any kind should never be used...ever. While Platinum Tools has made the closest thing to perfection when it comes to a quality connection, it will never beat a keystone jack and pre-made patch cord. Ask any network guy and this is how it is always supposed to be done. Does that change how I install systems like this? Absolutely not. The cameras don't push enough traffic to where the *possibly slightly* degraded line quality affects image quality. A REALLY bad crimp will though. The Platinum Tools connectors solves 3 of the most common problems that causes the world to frown upon them:

- ensures the copper reaches the absolute tip of the connector
- ensures the copper is securely pierced by the brass pins
- ensures the absolute minimum amount of wire is untwisted, reducing crosstalk, latency, jitter, and packet loss

Still can't believe the prices on these though. It's a good quality product so I guess that is to be expected. You get what you pay for. With that being said, I've had no problems with the cheap ones.

On the switches, those are not PoE switches (and also very old, but they'll still work) as I had thought you were being provided. Hikvision supports both passive and active PoE. While passive is cheaper, I would not recommend it long-term because active is generally the standard. Passive just uses the extra pairs in CAT cable that aren't being used. The cameras are only FE 10/100 capable (fast ethernet), which means only 2 of 4 pairs are used (pins 1236 are used, 4578 are extra). It sends power over those extra pairs, regardless of whether or not the device on the other end is requesting it. As such, you open the potential to cause damage IF a device that does not support Passive PoE is connected to the other end. Hikvision supports both, so it's somewhat moot. Active uses phantom power with coupling transformers on each end of the line (it's part of the device itself, not a separate component) to allow power and data to share the same physical copper. What you posted will technically work, it's Passive PoE, so as long as it's just Hikvision devices, you'll technically be fine.

Recommending non-standard methods on the internet is a death wish, so I justify it by explaining every aspect of the argument and letting the asker (you) make the decision based on the information I provide. The kill doesn't hurt as much and you get an unbiased view on a given topic. win-win.

Those are also business/enterprise-grade switches which are smart and configurable. Check with your IT guy to make sure the configs have been wiped from them. Just in case you run into something to where some of your cams are isolated on a separate VLAN or something. You don't want that. You just want it to behave like a dumb switch. I do see they have gigabit uplink which that's very nice. (you won't use the gigabit part, but the uplink port, regardless of speed, is what will connect to the very long line going back to your house per building)
 
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Also should mention that I plan to go with shielded cable, and probably shielded ends, since I am on a very high prone lightning hillside. Platinum tools has those too and are expensive, but worth it for my application.

code2 said:
do yourself a favor

use these

http://www.amazon.com/Platinum-Tools-100015-Connector-Clamshell/dp/B0009JCVI6 obviously use the right connector tho for the cable 5, 5e or 6 or 7 if inclined

and invest in this for above

http://www.amazon.com/Platinum-Tool..._UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=0GN587VCFPKRSJH29A1F

It makes like simple stupid
Click to expand...
 
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Hikvision cameras have plastic RJ45 jacks, so those are ungrounded from the start. (the cameras have a separate grounding terminal though) However if you're going to do all of this right, shield from point A to point B as much as possible (everything but the cameras basically). I would also recommend investing in a device like this:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008060BU0/

While it is rated for outdoor I personally would put it inside. If your area is as lightning prone as you say it is, $32 is a drop in the bucket for some additional peace of mind.
 
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@CoreyX64 yea I think I will stick with borrowing the right tools from work and doing the regular crimp. Save me from buying a tool or tester. I do plan to use the shielded connectors.

I welcome any, and all, standard and non-standard recommendations! It's on me once the investment is made and work is done! No death wish from my end. lol.

Yes all configs have been wiped and they would serve only as a 'dumb' hub since I will not have any other networking on the system. Only the NVR.

So in regards to the passive vs active topic. Wouldn't the power injector AFTER the switch and BEFORE the camera not have bearing on any POE at the switch?
 
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Yes I have those on the list to purchase entering each building. Several on here including you and @nayr and a few others have recommended them. Thanks!
CoreyX64 said:
Hikvision cameras have plastic RJ45 jacks, so those are ungrounded from the start. (the cameras have a separate grounding terminal though) However if you're going to do all of this right, shield from point A to point B as much as possible (everything but the cameras basically). I would also recommend investing in a device like this:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008060BU0/

While it is rated for outdoor I personally would put it inside. If your area is as lightning prone as you say it is, $32 is a drop in the bucket for some additional peace of mind.
Click to expand...
 
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If I have to buy the injectors for my free passive switches, would I be just as well to go this route, or this, and just buy injectors for the other 4 ports later if I ever went over 4 cameras?(very unlikely)

Or if I go with the free passive switches I was given, and go with this?
 
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These are cheapies, but all that is required for grounding is metal. These are metal-conductive connectors, and affordable:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/131659119452
I did find a 100pk of the Platinum Tools shielded connectors for $15. I don't think they're PT branded but they are pass through.

I say death wish not literally of course, but people tend to huff and puff when hiding behind the keyboard. (not you, just making a general statement) While I am almost exclusively Hikvision and will generally recommend them over others because I have an extensive amount of experience with them and can help solve most issues people have with them, I'm not going to tell someone specifically to buy their products based on brand or merit. (as to seem like an endorsement) I provide reasons as to why I choose to stick with them, provide pros/cons from my personal experience. Hikvision is far from perfect, and so is about every brand of anything ever made. I use almost entirely Apple products and extreme fanboys (sometimes referred to as iSheep) say they're perfect and get upset when people bash Apple. (they most definitely are NOT perfect). I have been asked many times which is better: iPhone or Android. My response is the same each time: it depends on what you use it for, your budget, and your preferences. While I myself have a 6s Plus, mom has a Microsoft Lumia (Windows Phone), and dad has a Note 4. All have their +'s and -'s and are great in their own regard. Cloud based POS systems? Android takes the cake. I find it far easier to work with overall. iPad POS? Forget it. That's a total waste of money. Not only more expensive, but more restricted. I guess you can say that about any Apple product but like I said before, it is ultimately user and application dependent. One size does not fit all. I have a Retina MacBook pro and an iPhone 6s Plus. People are puzzled as to why I don't have an iPad or an Apple Watch. This is the simplest question to answer: I have no need for those. While I will admit I do love shiny, I can't justify those expenses. Although I did consider getting an iPad mini mostly for CCTV work and remote viewing. Maybe someday, but not now.

Comparisons aside, Other people on here have experience with a variety of brands, hopefully providing thoughtful and unbiased input based on experience and factual information. Then there's the people that if you say 1 bad thing about x,y,or z that they love so much, you don't hear the end of it. (that's the death wish I refer to). By explaining everything/all sides in the argument/discussion, no one can say you pulled the Favorites card. Do I prefer Hikvision? Yes, clearly. Look at the rest of my posts and that's all I have. The difference is I don't impose that opinion on others. I'll recommend it based on experience, but that's as far as it goes. A recommendation and supportive reasoning. The internet would be a lot better place if we required licenses for keyboards much like we do driving, boating, etc. Or really any better way to hold people accountable. If you ever need a good laugh (or cry because society is hitting new lows), click on any Yahoo news article. Don't even read the article, just scroll straight to the comments section and prepare to be amazed.

Switch > PoE injector > Camera. Do make sure you know which side of that injector is PoE+Data (out to camera) and which is data only (in from switch). Get it backwards and you could end up with an unpowered camera and a dead switch. This is why active is and always will be the recommended route. That is a non-issue.

nebo said:
@CoreyX64 yea I think I will stick with borrowing the right tools from work and doing the regular crimp. Save me from buying a tool or tester. I do plan to use the shielded connectors.

I welcome any, and all, standard and non-standard recommendations! It's on me once the investment is made and work is done! No death wish from my end. lol.

Yes all configs have been wiped and they would serve only as a 'dumb' hub since I will not have any other networking on the system. Only the NVR.

So in regards to the passive vs active topic. Wouldn't the power injector AFTER the switch and BEFORE the camera not have bearing on any POE at the switch?
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