New system help please

[CoreyX64]

Free network switches, not free passive network switches. Passive is a form of PoE, your free switches support No PoE whatsoever. Just clarifying.

In any case, for the price of a decent PoE switch, I would just buy one. (both of those are good, I've personally used that Netgear one at work in a small conference room for VoIP phones, but TP-Link makes good stuff as well, plus all of the LEDs are front-facing on that so I like that better). When I saw that the switches you were given weren't PoE, my thought was, "this is going to get messy" because you would end up needing injectors for every camera. $42 shipped? Why not.

Personally I would go with Monoprice because it's cheaper. As long as the jacket is rated for direct burial/outdoor, and the wire has an RFI/EMI/ESD drain built in (if you look in the pics, this appears as a 9th conductor; it's nothing more than a ground wire), the rest is usually sugar coat. All of these are pure copper and UL listed so you're good there. (the way to tell is when you get the box, check for a UL hologram sticker; this is a requirement as of October 2010 because of CCA imports)

If I have to buy the injectors for my free passive switches, would I be just as well to go this route, or this, and just buy injectors for the other 4 ports later if I ever went over 4 cameras?(very unlikely)

Or if I go with the free passive switches I was given, and go with this?

 

[CoreyX64]

A side note on the Lightning:

I've had an entire network of outdoor, daisy chained wireless access points for WiFi where 1 got hit with lightning somewhere in the circuit. They are all powered together via 12V, not PoE. The one that was hit turned solid black, but still worked. It tripped the circuit breaker. The interesting part is the fact that the one that was hit still works, and the surge appeared to have traveled through the non-powered Ethernet line, through network switches in each AP in the chain (not harming any of those APs), all the way back to the head end where, in the router, it did not fry the LAN port the trunk was connected to, but did fry the WAN port. It then traveled to the cable modem, where it fried the Ethernet port and continued through the cable line. The owners had to have TWC come out and replace all of their cable boxes. Every one of them was roasted (and the modem). I know it sounds like a crazy story but it's true. Lightning can be unpredictable. A lot of this was because the ground block for the incoming cable line was never grounded. It was just a block. Ironic because it didn't block anything.

We had a lightning strike hit the transformer behind our house a year or two ago. Everyone in the family was on the computer at the time, TV was on, etc. when power was restored (FirstEnergy kept coming out and replacing fuses every 3 hours, until we complained and then eventually they replaced the whole transformer which was bad) 1 computer turned out to have a fried motherboard, everything else was fine. The power supply that the surge travelled through to kill the board? Still works great. Explain that one. (I can't)

As long as you make sure everything electrical is properly grounded (that's an electrical code requirement anyways), and even a surge protector is a nice touch, you should be fine.

***this post has been sitting in cache on my phone for weeks. It never submitted apparently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[nebo]

Great help as always @CoreyX64! Thanks for the insight and ideas. Hard to tell someone no thanks when they are just trying to save you money and not trash perfectly good devices, but less devices to plug in is always better.

 

[nayr]

The power supply that the surge travelled through to kill the board? Still works great. Explain that one. (I can't)

Electronically a PSU is a very simple and robust device, its designed to be tolerant of high voltages by nature.. when hit by a massive spike in current it's likely to just pass right on through and then when it gets to the motherboard thats running off low voltage DC with arrays of sensitive electronics... poof.

In short, if the PSU is smoked every thing on the other side is hopelessly lost.. even if it seems to work, it wont work right.. if the PSU is fine, then you can loose a few components without nessicary having massive damage.

A High Quality surge suppressor MIGHT have saved it, not guarantees tho.. sounds like your other devices were saved by them, Lightning is a bitch..

 

[nebo]

ok @CoreyX64, I'm going to open another can of worms before I start ordering parts.....what if I went fiber optic between each building? That would be best overall since lightning is so frequent on my hillside.

I plan to start researching the options in this category, but any input would be helpful. I noticed our fiber runs in the factory have several feet spooled up at the ends so I would want them extra long just to be sure I didn't order too short.

Best place to buy pre made lengths? Looks like the switches jump a little in price too.
http://smile.amazon.com/LS5008PF-CCTV-Port-Network-Switch/dp/B00JTOZJ18/ref=sr_1_8?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1460308782&sr=8-8&keywords=fiber+optic+poe+switch


Since I'm doing this only for myself, and only once, maybe I should be looking at ALL options.
I welcome others input as well.

Thanks much!

 

[code2]

I really think you are over thinking this whole lightning thing which is just making your cost go up. cable easy to fix and reruns if needed IMO cameras are cheap enough now a days if one blows out well i buy a new one pretty simple fix. I have learned over time with everything don't add things that are not really needed the more you add the more chance it break and harder to fix

 

[nebo]

One thing is for sure, by most people's standards, I overthink everything. Ha. As far as lightning, my garage and barn have taken direct hits on seperate occasions. Insurance company understands my concern. The old man that lived across the holler said for years he's watched lightning strike my hillside and not his. It's a strange phenomenon of the storms coming from the southwest over a north/south valley with cool air clashing with pressure and higher temp rising causing the Lightning.......Yadda Yadda Yadda.
Anyway, fiber optic is an option, and whether it is cost prohibitive, labor intensive, or totally uncalled for, I will definitely know more about fiber optic once I'm done overthinking yet another path in my life. lol.

Thank you kindly for your input and I would really enjoy any knowledge of fiber you could share with me. Would you know good places to purchase pre made lengths? And any switches you prefer to use with fiber?
Thanks again for your thoughts and ideas!

I really think you are over thinking this whole lightning thing which is just making your cost go up. cable easy to fix and reruns if needed IMO cameras are cheap enough now a days if one blows out well i buy a new one pretty simple fix. I have learned over time with everything don't add things that are not really needed the more you add the more chance it break and harder to fix

 

[code2]

One thing is for sure, by most people's standards, I overthink everything. Ha. As far as lightning, my garage and barn have taken direct hits on seperate occasions. Insurance company understands my concern. The old man that lived across the holler said for years he's watched lightning strike my hillside and not his. It's a strange phenomenon of the storms coming from the southwest over a north/south valley with cool air clashing with pressure and higher temp rising causing the Lightning.......Yadda Yadda Yadda.
Anyway, fiber optic is an option, and whether it is cost prohibitive, labor intensive, or totally uncalled for, I will definitely know more about fiber optic once I'm done overthinking yet another path in my life. lol.

Thank you kindly for your input and I would really enjoy any knowledge of fiber you could share with me. Would you know good places to purchase pre made lengths? And any switches you prefer to use with fiber?
Thanks again for your thoughts and ideas!

fiber is more expensive, its faster yes but a lot more when it comes to using it. My experience with it is none but my father who works for att will say one things it takes ridiculous amount of time and patients when dealing with it not to mention the added cost of equipment yadadada. THE EXTENT of my fiber experience is plugging in the optical cable from a tv into a home theater. Im a believer in the cable route its like fixing an old car compared to the new ones now a days.

 

[nayr]

fiber is actually pretty cheap, you often pay more to dig the trench than to hire a journeyman to come lay a few hundred yards and terminate both ends.. used switches with SPF interfaces can be had for a song and a dance. if you have a history of lightning damage, it'll be worth it.. the first time you loose everything it'll cost more than the difference you'd of paid for fiber over copper.

I feel your pain and paranoia, growing up on a farm in Kansas I lost all my electronic devices several times throughout my childhood.. its how I would get computer upgrades, just wait long enough and lightning would fry em and insurance company would buy me another.. it made me very respectful of lightning and proper grounding, and while I have not lost a thing since I moved away from the farm.. i still carry that everywhere.

 

[nebo]

Thanks @nayr! Great thoughts! I have done some Google searching for places to purchase pre made fiber, but do you have anywhere you recommend? I seen monoprice has some, but their longest was 150' online. My longest run to the barn would be around 200'.

 

[nayr]

it'll be to hard to get the ends through a conduit without damaging anything.. you should be able to hire someone to come out with a big spool and attach the ends for you once they pulled it out to your barn.. shouldn't cost more than $150-200 if you already have the conduit down.. your going to pay $100-150 for a prefab that long so just make it easier, its worth it.

if your willing to lay down a big enough conduit to fit the connectors through, amazon has lengths in all sizes.. dont lay alot of tough bends with your conduit, best to use one solid run of flexible pipe with nice gradual bends.. you'll snap a fiber pulling it through a 90 in a small conduit.

 

[nebo]

Sounds like a good plan @nayr. I just sent a message to a network friend at church to see if he terminates fiber. I also know an electrician that terminates fiber too. I could hire him on the side probably. He normally does industrial. I also plan to run large conduit in case I need to bring anything else to the barn down the road. And it's a straight shot so nothing tighter than a 45 needed. I know fiber is delicate so other things in same conduit would be risky. May just drop an extra raceway in the ditch. Thanks!
edit. He just texted back and said he didn't have the tools or experience. May go the big conduit route or the electrician I know.

 

[nebo]

I was prolly going with 1" conduit anyway. Isn't that big enough for the ends to pass?

 

[CoreyX64]

Electronically a PSU is a very simple and robust device, its designed to be tolerant of high voltages by nature.. when hit by a massive spike in current it's likely to just pass right on through and then when it gets to the motherboard thats running off low voltage DC with arrays of sensitive electronics... poof.

In short, if the PSU is smoked every thing on the other side is hopelessly lost.. even if it seems to work, it wont work right.. if the PSU is fine, then you can loose a few components without nessicary having massive damage.

What you mentioned makes sense. When parts are relatively cheap to replace and not very labor intensive, I don't really bother messing around with figuring out the why's and how's (although it's great knowledge to understand if you have the time to wrap your head around it). All computer power supplies (and most all power supplies) are fused on the AC side. (computer PSUs have fuses that are soldered internally, not easy to replace). That is contingent upon drawing enough current fast enough to blow the fuse before further damage. With a lightning strike, especially a direct transformer hit, all bets are off. In fact, I'm not sure any power protecting device could protect from that.

Lightning is a bitch..

Yes... yes it is. Cool to watch though.

For what it's worth, it was a P4 Dell from 2001 that I had rebuilt in 2009 with a high end Core 2 Duo. The Dell had RAMBUS RAM which was unbelievably expensive and the cost to upgrade the P4 to 2GB of RAM was over $500 while a Core 2 Duo and 4GB of DDR2 with a new board was <$150.

A High Quality surge suppressor MIGHT have saved it, not guarantees tho.. sounds like your other devices were saved by them

It was on an APC strip from 2001. My MacBook Pro was on an APC strip from about 2003-2004. The third computer was on a commercial grade metal wall mount power strip (like what's seen in hospitals sometimes), but that has no surge protection at all. (just a circuit breaker) The green light on it which is generally deemed a power light but in actuality is the light indicating that protection is still active, is still on indicating protection. It did nothing. They do, and I have seen this, turn red when a surge hits them and they are no longer protecting anything, telling the user: hey, I'm just a normal power strip now, I won't protect anything. I've also heard that surge protectors die with age, not with actual surges. I'm not an expert on that pertaining to consumer products, so I can't say for sure. I do however stick with APC and Tripp-Lite as I've preferred their offerings over others whether it be simple surge protectors at home to full-blown UPS's for network racks at work. Can't complain about either brand as they've had a solid reputation both with me and in the power conditioning industry.

 

[nayr]

you'll want a 2" for pre-terminated fiber.. maybe larger.

@CoreyX64, a fuse will pop when the device draws too much current.. ie, after its fried and shorted something to ground.. they do little to protect against power surges that come on hard and fast.. its not actually a draw, the computer didnt suddenly request more current.. its just a giant spike voltages (potential energy) that'll exceed tolerances that does the damage, now a direct strike shoves massive levels of power down everything until it smokes.. and nothing can save it other than tons of buried copper to sink that current into.

 

[CoreyX64]

The cost of fiber and media converters, while costlier than copper (not terribly more expensive though), will mitigate the lightning issue altogether, and you'll get better throughput and network performance overall even though it's just a few cameras. When people think fiber the assumption is extremely high prices (thanks cableco and telco industries). Some fiber is more expensive than others, but for this project it's actually likely to be quite reasonable. It ultimately depends on the type of fiber and what the application calls for. Here's a good reference chart to help you understand the difference between multi-mode and single-mode fiber:


Even if you don't use outdoor flexible conduit and use the gray plastic electrical PVC conduit, make sure it is of decent size (@nayr's video is a good reference) and you want all of your turns to be long radius 90s. Short radius, whether running copper or fiber, is a pain to work with when feeding. When you run fiber (or whatever you decide to run, make sure you also run a pull string and tie it off on each end. If you ever have to add to the conduit or replace anything, the string is your best friend. What I do is tie a piece of spongy foam/cloth to the string and put a shop vac on the other end of the conduit. Sucks it right through. I've seen IT/communication companies do that with fiber too, but I'd be worried about damaging it (if preterminated).

 

[nebo]

Great vid! Thanks for putting that here for reference!

 

[CoreyX64]

@CoreyX64, a fuse will pop when the device draws too much current.. ie, after its fried and shorted something to ground.. they do little to protect against power surges that come on hard and fast.. its not actually a draw, the computer didnt suddenly request more current.. its just a giant spike voltages that'll exceed tolerances.

Exactly. A fuse is overcurrent protection, not an inrush surge protection. It's weird what lighting decides to attack and spare. I'm still in one piece so that's always a good sign.

 

[nebo]

Great info @CoreyX64! When I get to my pc tomorrow, looks like I got lots of good info to work with to get a redirected plan together and see how it shakes out! Thanks much, fellas!

 

[nebo]

In regards to the Lightning and surges you guys are talking about, we had a squirrel take out a phase in our substation last week. It single phased briefly till the safeties took it down. And he got fried of course. We only tripped a few breakers on our subs in the building, but before going down, we lost a switch and our building management controls were all out of wack for a few days. Worked my longest day for a factory ever, last Friday at around 19 hours. Power surges and single phasing do very strange things and always tear things up.