New system help please

[CoreyX64]

3-phase is an interesting beast like that. While it's naturally designed for load balancing, losing even a single leg (sounds like you lost 2 legs) causes all sorts of problems. There isn't a lot of fault tolerance with the equipment especially at high currents since it ultimately needs all 3 legs to run properly. (Depends on what it is) Thank goodness for disconnects, circuit breakers, and every other electrical safety device ever invented. You can get some serious fireworks with 480Y.

RIP Squirrel


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[nebo]

Usually a 115kV short blows them to pieces. This was a tough fella!

 

[nebo]

so let me see if I got this right......I believe I should use MMF since distances are short for fiber. 200ft max.

start at the house where the NVR is located.
-NVR > Ethernet > media converter in house > fiber > switch > ethernet > camera/s
-repeat same thing for garage

Is there a preference for LC vs. ST vs. SC vs. ? LC and ST that I have chosen seems to have good reports for transmission, especially since I am only cameras? But input very much welcome. Just scratching the surface here and still quite ignorant. Not sure which connectors will be around a while and which ones the industry may drop? Thanks for any input.

 

[nayr]

go with LC, it'll plug right into a fiber capable switch.. if you get switches with SPF Uplinks you can ditch the media converters.. just connect the switches together directly with fiber.. just make sure you have a good fixed install location nobody is going ot be messing with that optical cable often.. in the datacenter fiber's remain in conduit until they get to the rack... otherwise you might use a fiber jumper that last few feet from a junction box to your switch, so if it gets damaged you dont have to replace the entire run.

 

[nebo]

go with LC, it'll plug right into a fiber capable switch.. if you get switches with SPF Uplinks you can ditch the media converters.

I thought LC looked the best, but could not find an LC switch at a decent price like what was in my link above. That switch only supports ST and SC. I only have a media converter at the NVR because the LTS NVR i'm eyeballing does not have the SPF uplinks. I hope I said all that correctly.

I will keep searching. Thanks, man.

 

[nayr]

look on ebay for used carrier grade equipment, since you just doing IPCameras remotely you just need a 10/100Mbit PoE switch with a Fiber uplink, nobody wants those anymore so u can get one for a song and a dance.

your main backbone switch you'll likely want to be gigabit with fiber uplinks, and possibly poe.. that one could cost yeh a couple hundred even used so yeah use a media converter if you have to.. with a fiber link you dont put the NVR remotely, keep it in your main building where its safer and more secure.

example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Packedge-SW...319071?hash=item464c083d1f:g:s00AAOSwJQdW~sbk

 

[nebo]

Right on! I'll look around. Thanks!

look on ebay for used carrier grade equipment, since you just doing IPCameras remotely you just need a 10/100Mbit switch with a Fiber uplink, nobody wants those anymore so u can get one for a song and a dance.

your main backbone switch you'll likely want to be gigabit with fiber uplinks, and possibly poe.. that one could cost yeh a couple hundred even used.

 

[nebo]

... otherwise you might use a fiber jumper that last few feet from a junction box to your switch, so if it gets damaged you dont have to replace the entire run.

Well that's a great idea. Basically protect very well in conduit or above ceiling in barn all the way to this adapter and then a short fiber patch cable to the switch that could be replaced down the road if there ever was a problem with the exposed fiber. Great pointer! Thanks!

 

[nebo]

I reread your posts and I don't think I have a main backbone switch you mention. I don't have any internet or anything else hooked to this network. It will only be a simple NVR at the house and a switch at the barn and a switch at the garage. So do the switches in each remote building need to be gigabit?

look on ebay for used carrier grade equipment, since you just doing IPCameras remotely you just need a 10/100Mbit PoE switch with a Fiber uplink, nobody wants those anymore so u can get one for a song and a dance.

your main backbone switch you'll likely want to be gigabit with fiber uplinks, and possibly poe.. that one could cost yeh a couple hundred even used so yeah use a media converter if you have to.. with a fiber link you dont put the NVR remotely, keep it in your main building where its safer and more secure.

example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Packedge-SW...319071?hash=item464c083d1f:g:s00AAOSwJQdW~sbk

 

[nayr]

think of it as a tree.. you have your main 'trunk' switch, this is what you plug the most of your devices into and everything that needs full port speeds (GigE) between any numerous machines.. Internet Router/NVR/NFS/WiFi Access points/Servers/Desktops/Media boxes etc.

then your remote locations where you need a few ports but dont want to run more than one link you have your 'branch' switches and all the devices plugged in are leaves, You want all your uplinks to be Gigabit definately, but the leaves on those branches (cameras) really only need 100Mbit ports (an IPCamera actually uses ~10Mbit bandwidth each).. your branches have to have enough strength (uplink bandwidth) to support all the leaves connected to it as the weight (combined bandwidth) is compounded.. 6 cameras @ 10Mbit each will be ~60Mbit on the uplink, which is >50% duty @ 100Mbit and easy to interrupt on accident.. but its < 17% duty @ GigE.. so GigE gives you fatter branches able to support more leaves.

 

[nebo]

Fantastic explanation for this newbie. I appreciate your patience with me, and I'm getting there.

I think my NVR will be my main trunk switch. I do not have anything else to plug in at the house. I have an outdated laptop and no wifi out in the boondocks where I live. lol.

My apologies if I'm way out in left field.

think of it as a tree.. you have your main 'trunk' switch, this is what you plug the most of your devices into and everything that needs full port speeds (GigE) between any numerous machines.. NVR/NFS/WiFi Access points/Servers/Desktops/Media boxes etc.

then your remote locations where you need a few ports but dont want to run more than one link you have your 'branch' switches and all the devices plugged in are leaves, You want all your uplinks to be Gigabit definately, but the leaves on those branches (cameras) really only need 100Mbit ports (an IPCamera actually uses ~10Mbit bandwidth each).. your branches have to have enough support (bandwidth) to support all the leaves connected to it as the weight (bandwidth) is compounded.. 6 cameras @ 10Mbit each will be ~60Mbit on the uplink, which is >50% duty and easy to interrupt on accident.

 

[nayr]

NVR's with built in PoE are not horribly appropriate for this kind of setup, your better off using a NVR with a single interface plugged into your trunk switch with your local cameras, internet modem and laptop.. you'll have better flexibility with an external switch and poe than built in, even though your so simple.

that NVR is unlikely to even have GigE ports on its built in switch, let alone routing/nat capabilities for non-ipcameras or fiber optic connectivity.

 

[MnemonicMonkey]

Late on the reply, but yes to all of this.

I've done a good bit of repair work on lightning damaged equipment, and have seen a number of cases where equipment was damaged by a strike in the area where there was enough inducted voltage to still damage equipment. (Think of it as a 200' AM antenna.) I'd go with fiber for just this reason, never mind the problems you get pushing cat 5 to the limits of spec...

I got a 24 port POE Cisco switch off eBay for $50 and added a $30 gigabit SFC for uplink to the computer. Should be easy enough to find some for fiber.

Sent by my Trunk Monkey™

 

[nayr]

totally agree @MnemonicMonkey, if your working with a site with a history of lightning damage Fiber is worth the trouble.. and the cost is negligible if it saves even one device next time...

I wasent kidding when I said I grew up counting on lightning strikes to provide me with hardware upgrades, it was very hard to make it 5 years without taking some sort of damage when your surrounded by treeless fields for miles in every direction... I made tons of electronic gizmos as a kid, and all are long gone.. the first radio I ever made taught me to master the soldering iron, it survived a 10 year old reworking countless times while teaching him self to solder then went poof in the first lightning storm..

Ive got so much lightning protection going on right now its overkill, saying how this site has never taken a hit that I know of.. I still added 5 more grounding rods to this house and gas discharge tubes on every single piece of wire that comes in from outside.. even my sprinkler system is lightning protected.. my server rack has solid copper bars binding all the posts together, attached to very heavy gauge solid coper wire binding it to my copper pipes.. that are then tired to every grounding rod spaced around the perimeter of my house that ground the discharge tubes.

my great grandfather was killed by lightning on a farm, I have mad respect for it.

 

[CoreyX64]

The LTS recorders are near identical to the Hikvision originals, and I can tell you that the uplink/main network NIC on them is GigE but the built in PoE switch for the cameras is only FE because that's all a single camera would call for. As @nayr said a single camera (even 2-3 maybe) will not completely saturate an FE line, so by design it makes sense to only implement FE hardware. However you aren't connecting things in a 1to1 setup (1 camera to one port), so GigE is the way to go, even though that portion of the NVR is not designed for that. Pipe it over the main network. The way Hikvision has these boxes set up is the cameras on the FE side are on a completely isolated subnet and totally separate from anything on your main network. It doesn't do much routing per se but from a security perspective at least with the cameras it's great because they're isolated. But if there's a security flaw in the camera firmware then the NVR is equally as vulnerable. I guess you could say it's somewhat behaving like NAT because packets from the isolated subnet are being translated to your main network subnet when remote viewing. That's about as far as it goes from what I can tell.

The most I've put on a single trunk is 5 3MP cams and I ran them over the FE side of the recorder. No issues to speak of, but I would not push those limits or test those waters. It works fine otherwise.


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[nebo]

The LTS recorders are near identical to the Hikvision originals, and I can tell you that the uplink/main network NIC on them is GigE.......

...........Pipe it over the main network.

But I do not have any routers or any network of any sort in my house or any other devices to plug in. Therefore the uplink from the NVR will not be needed? Do I really have to have a switch in the house if the NVR is my sole network heartbeat?

So to help me be clear in my own head, my NVR will be my main network switch/hub, brains of the operation? correct? and it seems with a monitor or a flat screen TV hooked to my NVR, and either a mouse or remote that will let me control my NVR, it will be stand alone?

I'm straight up bare bones, ya'll.

........and all the info on the trunk lines and how much the FE side can handle has been tremendous help! Thanks much, fellas!

 

[MnemonicMonkey]

Don't confuse uplink/trunk from the barn to the camera port on the NVR with an uplink for remote viewing.

So... Yes, if you're set on just doing an NVR setup and won't have enough cameras to saturate the FE port on the NVR. You can just use a media converter to go from the fiber to NVR.

But, having a enterprise class switch on the house end too will probably be more reliable and will allow for more expansion or a computer based NVR upgrade.

Sent by my Trunk Monkey™

 

[CoreyX64]

A cheap gigabit router from Walmart, OfficeMax, or Best Buy and hook up The NVR and trunklines to it (provided you have enough ports) will suffice. You also could make everything static and reuse one of those free Cisco switches. Assign static IPs to EVERYTHING. Make sure everything is on the same subnet (e.g. 192.168.1.0/24 is a common one), add all of your cameras manually to the NVR and that also will work. Internet is only required for remote access. Standalone, what you have will most definitely work without buying anything, just need some config changes to make everything work (you'd need to do that anyways).

NVR --> LAN NIC (abandon the PoE ports) --> Cisco switch --> trunk lines

Logically, whatever subnet the NVR is on, cameras also on that subnet it knows to scope out over the LAN port and not restrict to the PoE switch built in. This should work without any issues solely based on CCTV networking alone. If you plan to do anything beyond the IP cameras as far as networking is concerned, this is not the most preferred setup by any means... but it DOES work.

But I do not have any routers or any network of any sort in my house or any other devices to plug in. Therefore the uplink from the NVR will not be needed? Do I really have to have a switch in the house if the NVR is my sole network heartbeat?

Yes. You want to take advantage of GigE speeds for any and all trunk lines, and the NVR only offers that on the dedicated LAN NIC. PoE switch is FE and nothing more. Seeing as it only has one Gigabit NIC, and you're going to have more than one trunk line (1 per building), a switch of some sort, whether standalone or built into a router, is required to "split" the Ethernet line from the NVR to each trunk line. Technically, if you can solve the Fiber/Copper media conversion, those switches you got from work will be fine, so long that they are gigabit. They looked old so perhaps not.

So to help me be clear in my own head, my NVR will be my main network switch/hub, brains of the operation? correct? and it seems with a monitor or a flat screen TV hooked to my NVR, and either a mouse or remote that will let me control my NVR, it will be stand alone?

Brains of the camera feeds, yes. Network? No. You'd basically just have a bunch of devices connected together talking to each other on the same wavelength. There is no center piece because you don't have a router with DHCP, DNS, etc. It's all just there, and that's it. If you want it standalone with no remote access whatsoever, that's effectively how it works. Even if you did have a router... NVRs, cameras, or anything that is hosting a service you're generally going to want static. All it takes is one DHCP lease renew cycle and another device could snag that address, and you're left to find what it changed to. Not the most pleasant experience in the world.

 

[CoreyX64]

Don't confuse uplink/trunk from the barn to the camera port on the NVR with an uplink for remote viewing.

So... Yes, if you're set on just doing an NVR setup and won't have enough cameras to saturate the FE port on the NVR. You can just use a media converter to go from the fiber to NVR.

But, having a enterprise class switch on the house end too will probably be more reliable and will allow for more expansion or a computer based NVR upgrade.

Sent by my Trunk Monkey™

He has multiple buildings, so a switch of some sort is necessary. Else if it were only 1 remote location with 1 trunk, that would make everything simpler simply direct plug to NVR, especially with the cabling. He probably could get away with using the FE switch on the recorder, provided 1 trunk per port on the NVR. As I mentioned before, I've put 5 or so 3MP cams on a single FE port, and they work great. BR is about 4Mbps per cam. Worst case he has problems and has to buy/obtain a gigabit switch and hook it up the way I described in the post above. No harm in trial and error, that's how you learn. (besides asking questions, of course). GigE is only that much more reassurance that there will be no bottlenecks.

 

[alastairstevenson]

@CoreyX64 - with respect, I do need to comment on this statement so readers don't get the wrong information:

The way Hikvision has these boxes set up is the cameras on the FE side are on a completely isolated subnet and totally separate from anything on your main network. It doesn't do much routing per se but from a security perspective at least with the cameras it's great because they're isolated. But if there's a security flaw in the camera firmware then the NVR is equally as vulnerable. I guess you could say it's somewhat behaving like NAT because packets from the isolated subnet are being translated to your main network subnet when remote viewing. That's about as far as it goes from what I can tell.

When the 'Virtual Host' facility is enabled on the NVR, the Linux kernel routing (actually ip_forward) is fully active between the NVR PoE network interface and the NVR LAN network interface.
You can easily check this out yourself.