bidens incredible transition to electric cars

From the insert in my new electric bill:

Drive toward a better future in an electric vehicle
There's never been a better time to drive an electric vehicle
Driving an EV is good for the environment, your budget, and you
They're cheaper to operate
It's the perfect time to make the switch
You'll reduce emissions and save money along the way

What's not to love about this? Can buy a dozen 4k-x with the money saved!
 
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Check out the insurance rates on EVs. They seem to be more expensive to insure than a gas powered vehicle.
 
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sebastiantombs said:
Check out the insurance rates on EVs. They seem to be more expensive to insure than a gas powered vehicle.
Click to expand...
Clearly have not heard of Tesla Insurance (only available in limited areas), however for sensible drivers who don't mind sharing some data the savings are enormous.
Given the accident, theft and fire risks are significantly lower in EVs (partly because they are newer), general EV insurance rates are lower. Don't believe the media citing BEVs catch on fire more than ICE vehicles. ICE vehicles are more likely to catch on fire than BEVs. Hybrids on the other hand, are not EVs they are a marketing gimmick with a higher fire risk than EV and ICE combined.

I don't have an EV, not against EVs believe they make a lot of sense for 80% of people, but completely hate the way they are being forced\sold as miracle cures.
 
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spammenotinoz said:
Hybrids on the other hand, are not EVs they are a marketing gimmick with a higher fire risk than EV and ICE combined.
Click to expand...
Just opinion of course, I think plugin hybrids are the best solution.
 
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spammenotinoz said:
Clearly have not heard of Tesla Insurance (only available in limited areas), however for sensible drivers who don't mind sharing some data the savings are enormous.
Given the accident, theft and fire risks are significantly lower in EVs (partly because they are newer), general EV insurance rates are lower. Don't believe the media citing BEVs catch on fire more than ICE vehicles. ICE vehicles are more likely to catch on fire than BEVs. Hybrids on the other hand, are not EVs they are a marketing gimmick with a higher fire risk than EV and ICE combined.

I don't have an EV, not against EVs believe they make a lot of sense for 80% of people, but completely hate the way they are being forced\sold as miracle cures.
Click to expand...
Tesla insurance is likely cheaper because of the type of buyer/driver. Fire risk is a small fraction of the cost of the policy. Teslas are way more expensive to repair after a collision and more get total out in accidents that are repairable on an ICE. Also, as more automakers enter the EV market tesla offering cheaper insurance in limited markets is irrelevant. Depending on the car, driver and ev premium most of the fuel savings can be consumed by insurance increase alone. It is no more difficult to steal and EV than a modern ICE vehicle.
 
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fenderman said:
Tesla insurance is likely cheaper because of the type of buyer/driver. Fire risk is a small fraction of the cost of the policy. Teslas are way more expensive to repair after a collision and more get total out in accidents that are repairable on an ICE. Also, as more automakers enter the EV market tesla offering cheaper insurance in limited markets is irrelevant. Depending on the car, driver and ev premium most of the fuel savings can be consumed by insurance increase alone. It is no more difficult to steal and EV than a modern ICE vehicle.
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Like Nokia saying the iphone wasn't relevant because it didn't have a keyboard and was first released to limited markers. Innovation always starts in a limited markers, big players like Allianz SE are working hard to introduce similar innovation. The mantra has changed, not all customers are good customers. Future premiums will be more closely aligned with driver behaviour. Having 2 young ones in the family, this is likely to hurt.
 
spammenotinoz said:
Like Nokia saying the iphone wasn't relevant because it didn't have a keyboard and was first released to limited markers. Innovation always starts in a limited markers, big players like Allianz SE are working hard to introduce similar innovation. The mantra has changed, not all customers are good customers. Future premiums will be more closely aligned with driver behaviour. Having 2 young ones in the family, this is likely to hurt.
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So you want us to hope prices come down because other automakers will follow and sell their own insurance? What in the world can Allianz do? There is no and cannot be any true innovation in the insurance market. It is based on risk - simple calculation based on probability of a specific loss by a specific individual and the cost of same. Any small technique to limit risk would apply to ice vehicles.
The entire premise of EV's is a total scam other than the improved 0-60. Nothing wrong with it, but let the consumer choose.
 
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fenderman said:
So you want us to hope prices come down because other automakers will follow and sell their own insurance? What in the world can Allianz do? There is no and cannot be any true innovation in the insurance market. It is based on risk - simple calculation based on probability of a specific loss by a specific individual and the cost of same. Any small technique to limit risk would apply to ice vehicles.
The entire premise of EV's is a total scam other than the improved 0-60. Nothing wrong with it, but let the consumer choose.
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Challenge, this is not an EV vs ICE debate, the response was to challenge the myth that insurance for EVs is higher.

EVs are basically a computer on wheels (ie: Big Data), so regardless if the EV is a Ford or Tesla they collect huge amounts of data.
Tesla Insurance is using this data to replace unknowns with data, influencing their risk calculations. This trend is now being extended to other EV.

Allianz and other insurers are now working how to retrofit this model into existing ICE vehicles, but for now EVs have the edge.

Equally EVs are introducing\making mainstream a lot of negative innovation, like "subscription" models for software\hardware, which I dislike with an absolute passion. These will also flow down into non EVs.
But as I said this isn't an EV vs ICE debate at all.
 
Many insurance companies in the states allow you (or require you if high risk) to use their dongle plugged into the OBD port or download their app and allow them to see your driving habits.

If you drive the speed limit and don't ride the brake and don't have quick starts and stops and brake slams, you can get a discount.

But we all know where that is heading.... the ability for them to deny coverage or not cover an accident if the data tells them something they don't like.

Similar to the electric company offering me $20 to put a device on my meter that they could cut my electric during peak hours, I told my insurance no thanks for the $20 savings.
 
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mikeynags said:
Not true - I just went back and look through my bills and my rate went down $55/month. I went from 2 ICE vehicles to 1 ICE, 1 EV.
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Yours maybe be lower, but for a 25 year old male the cost to insure an EV will be $$$$$$$
 
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mikeynags said:
Insurance for any 25 year old male for any car will be high. I think the typical insurance discounts don’t hit until age 26.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Absolutely agree, although seems like ALL new insurance policies are now big $$$$
On the upside, they are now paying out higher replacement values. Surely we must be shortly approaching peak value for second hand cars? All the indicators point to extreme oversupply of vehicles starting mid next year, can't say I would like to be jumping into any car purchase (new or old).

Back to the topic though, EVs for EV sake is not good for the environment, they need to be made sustainably and as efficiently as possible.
Surely there are better things we could be doing to reduce emissions quicker.
  • More work from home
  • Free public transport
  • Local mining, refining and manufacturing (ie: less imports\exports)
  • Better education
  • Universal Healthcare \ Universal Minimal Wage (well proven that people need to have all their needs met, before the can make positive environmental choices)
  • More smaller (micro) modern nuclear power plants

Right now, all these EV companies use enormous amounts of carbon to make EVs. Tesla is at least making an effort (bringing the raw materials into the factory, using single factories to reduce shipping, manufacturing as close to the country of sale where possible, using as much green power as possible). Did you know Tesla's Solar is tiny part of their business, however the solar panels they have already installed have ALREADY produced enough electricity to cover the Electricity required to both MANUFACTURE and Charge EVERY single TESLA vehicle for the rest of their lives.

So imagine just how much power the big solar players have installed and are installing. So don't believe the FUD.
And no I don't believe we should be aiming for 100% green power, that is a stupid goal.
 
spammenotinoz said:
Back to the topic though, EVs for EV sake is not good for the environment, they need to be made sustainably and as efficiently as possible.
Surely there are better things we could be doing to reduce emissions quicker.
  • More work from home
  • Free public transport
  • Local mining, refining and manufacturing (ie: less imports\exports)
  • Better education
  • Universal Healthcare \ Universal Minimal Wage (well proven that people need to have all their needs met, before the can make positive environmental choices)
  • More smaller (micro) modern nuclear power plants
Click to expand...
Why do we need to reduce emissions? China and india, russia, dont seem to think its a serious issue as they continue to increase emissions. None of the insane models can prove that the world will actually suffer if we do nothing. In fact they claim there is literally nothing we can do. So why suffer in the interim.
Work from home is not suitable for most professions and there is a ton of productivity lost. Why the hell should I pay for someone to ride around town for free. Education is a failure because there is no competition between public schools. College education is a waste of both resources and opportunity cost - it is completely useless for 99 percent of professions. You are correct we should cancel college and thus save many tons of emissions.
Universal healthcare, no thanks I dont want my healthcare rationed.
Free money to freeloaders who stay at home all day? Fuck that. It has been proven not to work over and over. Even if you could prove that giving losers my hard earned money increasing inflation could reduce emissions I would tell you to fuck off. How insane is that. These psychotic liberal ideals will never and have never worked.
 
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spammenotinoz said:
Challenge, this is not an EV vs ICE debate, the response was to challenge the myth that insurance for EVs is higher.

EVs are basically a computer on wheels (ie: Big Data), so regardless if the EV is a Ford or Tesla they collect huge amounts of data.
Tesla Insurance is using this data to replace unknowns with data, influencing their risk calculations. This trend is now being extended to other EV.

Allianz and other insurers are now working how to retrofit this model into existing ICE vehicles, but for now EVs have the edge.

Equally EVs are introducing\making mainstream a lot of negative innovation, like "subscription" models for software\hardware, which I dislike with an absolute passion. These will also flow down into non EVs.
But as I said this isn't an EV vs ICE debate at all.
Click to expand...
I think you are confused about how Ev's work. Both ICE and EV vehicles can and do collect the same amount of data. Only the propulsion mechanism is different. Consumers will reject any subscription model on modern cars. It simply wont happen here in the US.

Here is a sample of data they hyundai collects unless you opt out. Bet most owners dont even know this. This applies to their ICE models as well.

Hyundai Vehicle Owner Privacy Policy

Click to view Hyundai Motor America's Vehicle Technologies and Services Privacy Notice. Review content on this page to learn how information is retrieved.
www.hyundaiusa.com www.hyundaiusa.com

  • Usage and Performance. Information related to the use of your Vehicle and the Vehicle Technologies and Services, as well as Vehicle performance, diagnostic codes and service-related data. This includes information such as odometer, mileage, MPG and emissions data; tire pressure data; trouble or error codes, and other diagnostic data; service and maintenance history; engine performance; tire pressure data; weather, temperature and other driving conditions; fuel levels and refueling activity; battery levels and status; images from exterior cameras (if available); Vehicle settings, commands and presets, points of interest, and other information about your use of certain features; and other performance, mechanical and operational data; as well as associated date/time stamps for such information.
  • Geolocation Data. In providing the Vehicle Technologies and Services, we collect location information, including your Vehicle’s GPS location. When you engage remote services using your mobile device, we also collect your mobile device location information. Geolocation data may be associated with the other Covered Information we collect and access.
  • Driving Data. We collect driving data about your Vehicle such as speed, acceleration and braking data; direction of travel; trip data (mileage, date, length, conditions); ignition events; steering events; cruise control data; seatbelt status; information about Vehicle incidents or events; other information about how you drive a Vehicle; as well as associated date/time stamps for such information.
  • Biometric Data. If you enroll in certain services, we may collect and process biometrics (e.g., fingerprint or facial recognition) as part of certain features and services, such as digital key and other vehicle services that enable your access using your biometric access credentials, subject to your consent as required under applicable laws. By setting your fingerprint and using the system, you consent to the collection, use, and storage of your data for the disclosed activities. We will only use or share your data as needed for system use, maintenance, and storage. Your fingerprint will be stored by the system until you delete it. Stored data cannot be converted into a reconstruction of your biometric information.
 
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fenderman said:
I think you are confused about how Ev's work. Both ICE and EV vehicles can and do collect the same amount of data. Only the propulsion mechanism is different. Consumers will reject any subscription model on modern cars. It simply wont happen here in the US.

Here is a sample of data they hyundai collects unless you opt out. Bet most owners dont even know this. This applies to their ICE models as well.

Hyundai Vehicle Owner Privacy Policy

Click to view Hyundai Motor America's Vehicle Technologies and Services Privacy Notice. Review content on this page to learn how information is retrieved.
www.hyundaiusa.com www.hyundaiusa.com

  • Usage and Performance. Information related to the use of your Vehicle and the Vehicle Technologies and Services, as well as Vehicle performance, diagnostic codes and service-related data. This includes information such as odometer, mileage, MPG and emissions data; tire pressure data; trouble or error codes, and other diagnostic data; service and maintenance history; engine performance; tire pressure data; weather, temperature and other driving conditions; fuel levels and refueling activity; battery levels and status; images from exterior cameras (if available); Vehicle settings, commands and presets, points of interest, and other information about your use of certain features; and other performance, mechanical and operational data; as well as associated date/time stamps for such information.
  • Geolocation Data. In providing the Vehicle Technologies and Services, we collect location information, including your Vehicle’s GPS location. When you engage remote services using your mobile device, we also collect your mobile device location information. Geolocation data may be associated with the other Covered Information we collect and access.
  • Driving Data. We collect driving data about your Vehicle such as speed, acceleration and braking data; direction of travel; trip data (mileage, date, length, conditions); ignition events; steering events; cruise control data; seatbelt status; information about Vehicle incidents or events; other information about how you drive a Vehicle; as well as associated date/time stamps for such information.
  • Biometric Data. If you enroll in certain services, we may collect and process biometrics (e.g., fingerprint or facial recognition) as part of certain features and services, such as digital key and other vehicle services that enable your access using your biometric access credentials, subject to your consent as required under applicable laws. By setting your fingerprint and using the system, you consent to the collection, use, and storage of your data for the disclosed activities. We will only use or share your data as needed for system use, maintenance, and storage. Your fingerprint will be stored by the system until you delete it. Stored data cannot be converted into a reconstruction of your biometric information.
Click to expand...
Again you are off on a tangent. The above information is only retrieved from an authorised dealer, not OTA nor shared with third parties, eg: Insurance. Data is shared or extracted directly by Law enforcement in the event of an accident.
This already occurs with pretty much any car made after the year 2000, but not many people realise this.

As for consumption, while I pray you are correct, the subscription models is already accepted in the US, BMW and Tesla are prime examples. The revised Ford, GM and Toyota revenue forecasts all include Billions of $$ from subscription revenues. GM and Ford in particular have identified these future unproven revenue streams to fund their EV investments. I would not want to be holding shares of GM or Ford, if these subscription revenues don't pan out, then the US will be bailing them out.
 
spammenotinoz said:
Again you are off on a tangent. The above information is only retrieved from an authorised dealer, not OTA nor shared with third parties, eg: Insurance. Data is shared or extracted directly by Law enforcement in the event of an accident.
This already occurs with pretty much any car made after the year 2000, but not many people realise this.

As for consumption, while I pray you are correct, the subscription models is already accepted in the US, BMW and Tesla are prime examples. The revised Ford, GM and Toyota revenue forecasts all include Billions of $$ from subscription revenues. GM and Ford in particular have identified these future unproven revenue streams to fund their EV investments. I would not want to be holding shares of GM or Ford, if these subscription revenues don't pan out, then the US will be bailing them out.
Click to expand...
Wrong, it is sent OVER THE AIR to hyundai. You are confusing a cars EDR - which I am intimately familiar with - and this deep data collection of your locations, speeds and many other variables. This is why you can choose to disable the data collection simply by using the hyundai/genesis app - because its all done over the air. In fact, the "drive score" as they call it is used to offer you insurance discounts.

Did you bother reading the link? "We have implemented safeguards to protect the Covered Information we collect. However, the security of information transmitted through the Internet over telecommunications networks cannot be guaranteed. "
It IS shared with third parties. Third party Offers. If you click an offer or otherwise choose to take advantage of a third-party offer, we may share Covered Information, including personal information, with that partner to facilitate your interaction with them.
Aggregate and De-Identified Information. We also may use and disclose aggregate, anonymous, or de-identified information about users for marketing, advertising, research, compliance, or other purposes, including select third parties who may use this data to better understand aggregate driving and traffic patterns, update maps and route details, analyze road conditions, and for other own research, development and analytics purposes.

When the subscription models wont work they will simply go back to providing it for free. There is too much competition to allow for it.
 
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