Cam for drive way monitoring

[Araphen]

I'm very new to security cameras but my plan is to have a camera looking out my front window so I can watch for delivery trucks and catch anyone messing with my car. I'd like 1-7 days of video to be recorded to a PC running windows 10 and has 5TBs of storage free. I'm also able to run power and ethernet to where I want the camera without a problem. The main thing I'm trying to avoid is subscription based services and I've already looked at at least 15 different brands, each eventually revealing that you have to pay a monthly fee to use base features. So I gave up trying to find what I want on my own and came here for help.

I would very much like an option with an android app for remote monitoring and management but I can just remote into my plex server if that's not something I'd be able to get. I'd also like the fancy features like motion detection, zones, sensitivity, etc. to cut down on what's recorded but if those also aren't things I can get for free then I think I could manage with 24/7 recording.

I also have no idea where to start when it comes to software and I'd be willing to purchase a license if that's required to get the those nice features (but no subscription based licenses). I'd say my overall budget for this is around $200 for the camera and software.

Any and all help/suggestions are appreciated

 

[SyconsciousAu]

my plan is to have a camera looking out my front window

That will prevent you using the onboard IR. Is your light sufficient ouside for the camera to work without IR?

For a $200 budget I'd get a 5442 turret, a POE injector, and a high endurance SD Card. Use the Free DMSS app from dahua to remote in.

 

[Araphen]

That will prevent you using the onboard IR. Is your light sufficient ouside for the camera to work without IR?

For a $200 budget I'd get a 5442 turret, a POE injector, and a high endurance SD Card. Use the Free DMSS app from dahua to remote in.

I have a street light right outside my house and I can turn the garage light on if I need more light but would prefer not to. But I can't go mounting things outside because that would require a lot complex cable runs and drilling holes in the siding which I'd like to avoid.

Is there any reason why you'd suggest recording to a micro SD card instead of writing to my media PC over the network?

 

[SyconsciousAu]

Is there any reason why you'd suggest recording to a micro SD card instead of writing to my media PC over the network?

Simplicity for the most part. No need to install other software, No other software competing for processor cycles. Most of us here who run PC based NVR's run dedicated servers.

 

[Araphen]

Simplicity for the most part. No need to install other software, No other software competing for processor cycles. Most of us here who run PC based NVR's run dedicated servers.

Would going the micro SD card route lead to storage issues if I wanted to record like a week of video? or will the camera probably compress it well enough that that wouldn't be an issue as long I got a large enough micro SD card?

Do you have a brand of micro SD card you would recommend? My go-to would just be samsung evo or sandisk extreme (whichever is cheaper) but idk if there's a favorite for security cameras.
I know they burn out after being written to enough times, so how often would you say it would probably need replacing?

Also since the plan is to have it looking out a window, I was thinking I would make a shroud to put around the front of the camera to minimize glare so a turret style camera wouldn't be ideal unless I can take it apart and mod it easily. Do you know of a similar spec'd camera in a different form factor? If not i could probably make the turret work but I don't think I would be moving the camera too much once i get it positioned so that might be a wasted feature.

Do you think I would run into problems if I wanted to go for an 8MP@30fps camera with a wide angle lens? My driveway is only like 40 feet long so maybe that's overkill but I'm not sure.

 

[SyconsciousAu]

Would going the micro SD card route lead to storage issues if I wanted to record like a week of video?

That depends. Do you want to record continuously, or only on motion?

Do you have a brand of micro SD card you would recommend?

Any of the name brand high endurance cards. Don't go cheap.

Also since the plan is to have it looking out a window,

Why can't you mount it outside?

I wanted to go for an 8MP@30fps

Don't chase megapixels, and 15fps is plenty. Have you read the Cliff notes?

camera with a wide angle lens?

Are the bad guys coming within 3m of the camera? If not go for a longer lens.

 

[biggen]

Shooting through a window in black/white mode without IR won’t work well. You need the camera outside if you want acceptable results.

I run color on my driveway at night but I had to also add two of these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07B8XHBP8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have them wired to a smart switch that turns them on at sunset and off at sunrise.

As mentioned, most of us run Blue Iris either on a dedicated computer or in a VM.

 

[Old Timer]

Blue Iris is a PC based NVR. You pay $58 to buy the software and you get 1 year of free updates. You can use an older PC
to run it on. A very basic computer will run a couple cameras, and a 5T drive would work great for recording video.

Choosing Hardware for Blue Iris

Buy refurbished. Don't build or buy new. The most cost-effective Blue Iris computers are refurbished business-class systems such as "HP EliteDesk" and "Dell OptiPlex". You can usually get a good deal by searching [URL='http://www.ebay.com/']Ebay[/URL] for specific CPU model numbers, and...

ipcamtalk.com

Calculating Required Hard Drive Size

We have built a calculator for you to use and save your results. Click here to use it. To calculate required storage space for cameras, you only need to know two things: The average bit rate, and the amount of time. Then multiply them together with Google, being careful to use the correct...

ipcamtalk.com

https://store.ipcamtalk.com/shop/blue-iris-software/

 

[Araphen]

First of all thank you for helping me out so far. I've already learned a lot

That depends. Do you want to record continuously, or only on motion?

I was hoping to try out both and see which I prefer. Based on the cliff notes it makes it sound like motion detection might not work through the window so 24/7 recording might be my only choice. The cliff notes list "not recording all the time" as a common mistake too so I'm thinking that's what I'll want to aim for

Based on this possibly helpful calculator from seagate, Video Storage Calculator | Seagate US, I think a 512gb micro sd card would be sufficient for 7 days of recording but i could drop it down to 3 days if needed

Why can't you mount it outside?

It would require drilling holes in places where I don't want to put holes and I've never done cable runs through insulated walls before so it just sounds like such a pain. There's a street light that's always on at night and it illuminates my driveway pretty well so I'm hoping that would be enough to not need the IR. If it's not I'd probably try turning on the light above my garage and if I had to I'd replace it with a flood light but I'm hoping it wouldn't come to that.

Don't chase megapixels, and 15fps is plenty. Have you read the Cliff notes?

I was unaware of the cliff notes. I read through them and I'm playing with the ipvm calculator now. How much should I rely on this calculator app?
Here's an example of what I'm trying to do (not using my house cause I don't want to dox myself accidentally). In the example the distance is about 40 feet and the HFoV is 80 degrees

Shooting through a window without IR won’t work well. You need the camera outside if you want acceptable results.

I run color on my driveway at night but I had to also add two of these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07B8XHBP8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I have them wired to a smart switch that turns them on at sunset and off at sunrise.

As mentioned, most of us run Blue Iris either on a dedicated computer or in a VM.

I'm hoping it'll work with just the street lights/garage door light but if it doesn't then I might abandon this idea and return the gear or just use it during the day to be lazy and watch for packages. Those are some bright af lights though. I'm bookmarking that link.

Since SyconsciousAu has tempted me with the simplicity of recording straight to a microSD card, I think I'd prefer that but I might throw together some spare parts and make a dedicated machine for cameras if I start adding more than just the one.

 

[Old Timer]

Your biggest problem is shooting through the glass. You can use a 5442 and put a flat black cover over it.
That will get you decent shots during the day. For night coverage, you will have to turn off the IR emitters,
and use a ton of light outside. You can wire IR flood lights outside to allow marginal pictures at night.

 

[biggen]

If you already have a light above your garage then why not leave that on at night? Its acts as a passive deterrence in that it keeps your driveway well lit. If an intruder then does come onto your driveway, the light will be needed to capture a better quality video. Nothing beats color if you have enough white light to run it.

 

[Old Timer]

Read up on Detection, Observation, Recognition, Identification (DORI)

• Detection: Determine with a high degree of certainty whether or not a person is present
• Observation:
• Recognition: A high degree of certainty that an individual is the same person seen before.
• Identification: Detail sufficient to enable establishment of identity beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[Araphen]

Your biggest problem is shooting through the glass. You can use a 5442 and put a flat black cover over it.
That will get you decent shots during the day. For night coverage, you will have to turn off the IR emitters,
and use a ton of light outside. You can wire IR flood lights outside to allow marginal pictures at night.

What I'm doing currently is basically taping an old tablet to the window and video calling it with discord. That's alright for watching for important packages during the day so a $100-$200 camera has gotta be way better, right?

That 5442 camera looks like something i could work with since it has a flat camera face. My idea is to find a cheap rubber dome (like a plunger head) and cut the camera shape into it and fit it over and press it to the window to reduce glare caused by the inside lights.

If you already have a light above your garage then why not leave that on at night? Its acts as a passive deterrence in that it keeps your driveway well lit. If an intruder then does come onto your driveway, the light will be needed to capture a better quality video. Nothing beats color if you have enough white light to run it.

We were leaving the light on for a while but it eventually became smothered in spiders and we weren't happy with that look. I might just go back to leaving it on and coat it in poison every now and then.

Read up on Detection, Observation, Recognition, Identification (DORI)

• Detection: Determine with a high degree of certainty whether or not a person is present
• Observation:
• Recognition: A high degree of certainty that an individual is the same person seen before.
• Identification: Detail sufficient to enable establishment of identity beyond reasonable doubt.

I think if I can get a 4k camera with a minimum of 60 HFoV (80 preferred) and good up to a distance of 40 feet, that would mean i could easily identify anyone who comes close to my house. I'm basing this on the ipvm calculator I've been playing with. Maybe I missed the point of your comment though

 

[Old Timer]

A 4k (8m) camera will extend your daytime range if you have full daylight. At night your range will be down to nothing.
You have to think about the light coming through the lens, and divide it with the 2m pixels, you have a fair amount of
light for each pixel. If you divide that same amount of light by 8m pixels, you will have 1.4 the amount of light per pixel.
This assumes you are using the same size camera and same size lens. If you want to go to a box camera and add your
own lens, you can blow a $2,000 budget to get half the low light performance in a 4k (8m) camera. Or, If you add 4 times
the amount of light outside, you might work out. From my experience and from all of the advice on this forum, everyone
will tell you to stop chasing pixels, and start chasing great low light performance.

In other words, you can't get champagne and caviar on a beer budget. You might as well stop drinking.

 

[wittaj]

Look at this chart below - the person would need to be within 13 feet to recognize them with a 2.8mm lens. As I tell my neighbors with their 2.8 mm cams on their house saying they can recognize people at the street, I am like that is only possible if you already know the person and be able to recognize them based on their walk, clothing, body type, etc., but put a total stranger in the frame and the picture will be fairly useless. I recognize most of the people I see on my 2.8mm overview cam, but a total stranger goes by and not much you could tell the police, maybe clothing color, but nothing to identify them.

You can detect someone at 75 feet and beyond and maybe be able to "recognize" them if you know them and can tell their body dimension, walk, etc., but will never be able to identify a stranger or have a good enough image to share with the police.

You would need probably around 32mm for identification at 75 feet. In cameras, a 2.8mm versus a 32mm results in a dramatic improvement over a distance.

And you will see because of that small lens size, that if you digital zoom, it is a pixel blurry mess real fast.

 

[Araphen]

A 4k (8m) camera will extend your daytime range if you have full daylight. At night your range will be down to nothing.
You have to think about the light coming through the lens, and divide it with the 2m pixels, you have a fair amount of
light for each pixel. If you divide that same amount of light by 8m pixels, you will have 1.4 the amount of light per pixel.
This assumes you are using the same size camera and same size lens. If you want to go to a box camera and add your
own lens, you can blow a $2,000 budget to get half the low light performance in a 4k (8m) camera. Or, If you add 4 times
the amount of light outside, you might work out. From my experience and from all of the advice on this forum, everyone
will tell you to stop chasing pixels, and start chasing great low light performance.

In other words, you can't get champagne and caviar on a beer budget. You might as well stop drinking.

I was basing the 4k thing off of what I was learning from playing around with the ipvm calculator because it showed a 4k camera getting great shots at 40ft in light and dark but I'm guessing i was reading it wrong. My budget is hopefully a firm $200 so sadly I won't be getting a $2000 camera

Look at this chart below - the person would need to be within 13 feet to recognize them with a 2.8mm lens. As I tell my neighbors with their 2.8 mm cams on their house saying they can recognize people at the street, I am like that is only possible if you already know the person and be able to recognize them based on their walk, clothing, body type, etc., but put a total stranger in the frame and the picture will be fairly useless. I recognize most of the people I see on my 2.8mm overview cam, but a total stranger goes by and not much you could tell the police, maybe clothing color, but nothing to identify them.

You can detect someone at 75 feet and beyond and maybe be able to "recognize" them if you know them and can tell their body dimension, walk, etc., but will never be able to identify a stranger or have a good enough image to share with the police.

You would need probably around 32mm for identification at 75 feet. In cameras, a 2.8mm versus a 32mm results in a dramatic improvement over a distance.

And you will see because of that small lens size, that if you digital zoom, it is a pixel blurry mess real fast.

40ft is the end of my drive way and 20-26ft is probably about as far out as our cars are so that might be enough.

So what would you say about this camera that Old Timer suggested?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07S2196R9

If I'm understanding the chart on the amazon page correctly, the 3.6mm might be best for me since it has 89 degree view and decent identify range.
(I think the numbers are different from your chart because they're saying the built in AI makes it better but I'm not sure)



If you don't like that one what would you say is better?

 

[wittaj]

Here is a 4MP 2.8mm camera picture at 15 feet out with a 3,100 lumen spotlight with camera settings dialed in to minimize blur. Imagine how much darker 8MP would be trying to shove that much more resolution on roughly the same sensor. Keep in mind, for every jump in resolution, you need a lot more light - in some cases 50% more.

You need to dial these cameras in to get a decent video, which means the effective range of the camera is greatly reduced. I can run this camera on auto shutter and see 3 houses away, but EVERYTHING in motion will be a blur, so once you dial it in, I barely capture a small portion of my yard.

I am a big fan of varifocals because you can zoom it in to the area you are trying to cover.

 

[wittaj]

Also, see this thread for some inside camera ideas:

Why I Like Redundant Views/Multiple Cam Views

A lot of newbies ask for help with their camera setups and most think that they can get by with a single cam to cover quite a bit of area. While that is possible if all you are interested in is a wide-angle overview, it usually will not give you a great chance of getting a face shot good enough...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[Araphen]

Here is a 4MP 2.8mm camera picture at 15 feet out with a 3,100 lumen spotlight with camera settings dialed in to minimize blur. Imagine how much darker 8MP would be trying to shove that much more resolution on roughly the same sensor. Keep in mind, for every jump in resolution, you need a lot more light - in some cases 50% more.

You need to dial these cameras in to get a decent video, which means the effective range of the camera is greatly reduced. I can run this camera on auto shutter and see 3 houses away, but EVERYTHING in motion will be a blur, so once you dial it in, I barely capture a small portion of my yard.

I am a big fan of varifocals because you can zoom it in to the area you are trying to cover.

View attachment 77704

so what about this 4MP 3.6mm lens one?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07S47VXGY?tag=ipctk-20&th=1

or maybe instead of getting one camera at like $160 maybe i should get two $70-$80 cameras and just point them in different directions...

I'm also not gonna be running software like blue iris so whatever camera(s) i get have to come with neato software for android and pc video viewing. Like I think Duhua cameras come with that

 

[wittaj]

Yes, these OEM Dahua cams you are reviewing from @EMPIRETECANDY have software that you can view - I used it for awhile but eventually went to Blue Iris. You can also put an SD card in the cameras.

That camera you referenced has the best 4MP/sensor combination right now. Just be aware that behind a window running in color will greatly reduce the range at night. Provided you are ok with that, it is a great camera.