Captured Frame Rates

[GeekDad]

I purchased an Arlo Pro 2 three camera system from Costco (which I can return!) a few weeks ago and have reservations about it (easily stolen, need to re-charge periodically) which is why I ended up on ipcamtalk. The Costco system also has NO capability for local storage. I only have one camera mounted currently.

I originally wanted to go with a Hikvision IP bullet camera system before the Arlo purchase. I was leaning towards a 4MP but after seeing the Dahua 2MP w/ Starlight I'm beginning to think that is the way to go. I also seem to like the dome style after some pictures of them mounted.

I was hoping to utilize the full frame rate (i.e. 30 fps) supported by an IP camera. My concern is the CPU, and the recorded frame rate. I am looking at having 3-4 cameras. According to bp2008's rule-of-thumb:

cameras * MP * fps

using four 4MP cameras at 30 fps would put it at 480 Mbps. This would equate to a 3rd-7th gen i5 desktop CPU (4 cores).

Q1: If I went with Blue Iris (BI), will the recorded video be at the full 30 fps rate? I got the impression from some posts that it may capture at less than the full frame rate.

Q2: Since many people on ipcamtalk seem to be fans of Dahua cameras, has anyone implemented Dahua's SMART PSS software? How well does it compare to BI? I again have concerns about frame rate.

Q3: Thoughts on the Arlo Pro 2 (@SouthernYankee indicates they are junk). Can anyone elaborate?


Anyone care to weigh in?


-Thanks-

 

[mat200]

I purchased an Arlo Pro 2 three camera system from Costco (which I can return!) a few weeks ago and have reservations about it (easily stolen, need to re-charge periodically) which is why I ended up on ipcamtalk. The Costco system also has NO capability for local storage. I only have one camera mounted currently.

I originally wanted to go with a Hikvision IP bullet camera system before the Arlo purchase. I was leaning towards a 4MP but after seeing the Dahua 2MP w/ Starlight I'm beginning to think that is the way to go. I also seem to like the dome style after some pictures of them mounted.

I was hoping to utilize the full frame rate (i.e. 30 fps) supported by an IP camera. My concern is the CPU, and the recorded frame rate. I am looking at having 3-4 cameras. According to bp2008's rule-of-thumb:

cameras * MP * fps

using four 4MP cameras at 30 fps would put it at 480 Mbps. This would equate to a 3rd-7th gen i5 desktop CPU (4 cores).

Q1: If I went with Blue Iris (BI), will the recorded video be at the full 30 fps rate? I got the impression from some posts that it may capture at less than the full frame rate.

Q2: Since many people on ipcamtalk seem to be fans of Dahua cameras, has anyone implemented Dahua's SMART PSS software? How well does it compare to BI? I again have concerns about frame rate.

Q3: Thoughts on the Arlo Pro 2 (@SouthernYankee indicates they are junk). Can anyone elaborate?


Anyone care to weigh in?


-Thanks-

Welcome @GeekDad

1st - define what you want to accomplish with a camera system.
Feel free to share a bit here, as this will help determine how appropriate the Arlo camera will be for the situation.

2nd - See the cliff notes

 

[aristobrat]

Dahua and Hik usually have similar models, it’s just usually easier and less expensive to order the OEM of Dahua equipment because there’s been a great reseller (Andy, @EMPIRETECANDY) on the forum here from years. He’s recently started carrying a few Hikvision models. For Dahua he can usually get most International models.

There are now some new 4MP Starlight+ models (5442 series) that do a bit better than the 2MP Starlight model in low-light.

Domes require a few more considerations than turrets and bullets do. IMO the biggest one is that if IR from the camera reflects off of something in front of it at night, it can wash out the image. Same if the foam ring that seals between the end of the lens of the inside of the dome shrinks down any over time — that can also let IR bleed in and wash out the image. Turrets and bullets don’t usually have IR issues like that. And not that any camera is spider-web proof, but domes can be the worst.

It’s common to start with a want of 30 FPS but most folks end up backing down to 15 FPS once they see that FPS doesn’t affect the image quality of the frames... it’s the exposure settings (usually shutter speed) that has the biggest effect in that.

SmartPSS is an app that lets you view/configure Dahua cameras and NVRs. It doesn’t directly record video like Blue Iris does. Dahua used to have an optional piece of software called PC-NVR that you can install on a PC to record cameras. It doesn’t have a user interface, you use SmartPSS to control it. It has some NVR features, but not all. It’s never really gotten a following here, IMO.

I have BI set to record “direct to disc” (which is recommended, otherwise BI has to reencode the video which has a huge impact on CPU usage) , so how the camera sends the video is how BI records it. This means you make all of your camera resolution, bit rate and FPS settings on the cameras themselves, not through BI. I use the cameras built-in web interface to do this, but you could use SmartPSS to make some (not always all) of those settings.

 

[GeekDad]

Thanks @mat2000 and @aristobrat.
I had read the cliff notes and confused dome with eyeball as well. Taking a hard look at the 5442 series...

-Thanks-

 

[SouthernYankee]

Use Dahua starlight cameras or Hikvision darkfighter cameras if you need good low light cameras.
If possible use a turret camera , bullet collect spiders, dome collect dirt and reflect light (IR)
More megapixel is not necessarily better.
Avoid chinese hacked cameras (most ebay, amazon, aliexpress cameras(not all, but most))

Cameras to look at
IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED Review IPC-T5442TM-AS-LED (Full Color, Starlight+) - 4MP starlight
IPC-T5442TM-AS Review-OEM 4mp AI Cam IPC-T5442TM-AS Starlight+ - 4MP starlight+
IPC-T2347G-LU Review of the Hikvision OEM model IPC-T2347G-LU 'ColorVu' IP CCTV camera. (DS-2CD2347G1-LU)
IPC-HDW2231R-ZS Review-Dahua IPC-HDW2231RP-ZS Starlight Camera-Varifocal
IPC-HDW2231T-ZS-S2 Review-OEM IPC-T2231T-ZS 2mp Varifocal Starlight Camera
IPC-HDW5231R-ZE Review-Dahua Starlight IPC-HDW5231R-ZE 800 meter capable ePOE
IPC-HFW4239T-ASE IPC-HFW4239T-ASE
IPCT-HDW5431RE-I Review - IP Cam Talk 4 MP IR Fixed Turret Network Camera
DS-2CD2325FWD-I
N22AL12 New Dahua N22AL12 Budget Cam w/Starlight -- low cost entry

 

[looney2ns]

I purchased an Arlo Pro 2 three camera system from Costco (which I can return!) a few weeks ago and have reservations about it (easily stolen, need to re-charge periodically) which is why I ended up on ipcamtalk. The Costco system also has NO capability for local storage. I only have one camera mounted currently.

I originally wanted to go with a Hikvision IP bullet camera system before the Arlo purchase. I was leaning towards a 4MP but after seeing the Dahua 2MP w/ Starlight I'm beginning to think that is the way to go. I also seem to like the dome style after some pictures of them mounted.

I was hoping to utilize the full frame rate (i.e. 30 fps) supported by an IP camera. My concern is the CPU, and the recorded frame rate. I am looking at having 3-4 cameras. According to bp2008's rule-of-thumb:

cameras * MP * fps

using four 4MP cameras at 30 fps would put it at 480 Mbps. This would equate to a 3rd-7th gen i5 desktop CPU (4 cores).

Q1: If I went with Blue Iris (BI), will the recorded video be at the full 30 fps rate? I got the impression from some posts that it may capture at less than the full frame rate.

Q2: Since many people on ipcamtalk seem to be fans of Dahua cameras, has anyone implemented Dahua's SMART PSS software? How well does it compare to BI? I again have concerns about frame rate.

Q3: Thoughts on the Arlo Pro 2 (@SouthernYankee indicates they are junk). Can anyone elaborate?


Anyone care to weigh in?


-Thanks-

Arlo, overpriced for what they are.
They use Wifi, not reliable.
Poor image quality compared to what you can get for the same or less money.
Folks show up here all the time looking to replace Arlo's after they've had them a little while.
Batterys will be a pain in the butt.

 

[aristobrat]

Taking a hard look at the 5442 series...

I have two of those and love them -- they are an improvement in low-light performance over the 2MP Starlights that I have. Most of my 2MP Starlights models are 5231 varifocal turrets with the lens zoomed to settings that aren't close to 2.7mm, 3.6mm or 6mm (which are the only lens options for the 5442 turrets), so I'm holding off on getting any more 5442s at the moment. I could use a 5442 varifocal bullet, but I know the look of bullets around the outside of the house won't go over well with my family so I'm going to let that sleeping dog keep on sleeping.

And x2 on @looney2ns's thoughts about Arlo's image quality. IMO, that's not a knock against Arlo specifically, ... I just haven't seen cameras made for the consumer market use low-light image sensors that match the performance of the better low-light image sensors that Dahua/Hik use in cameras made for the professional market. So IMO Nest, Ring, etc also fall into that category.

 

[bp2008]

Hi

Q1 A: Yes. Recorded video will be at the full frame rate as long as your computer can keep up with the workload, which it should as long as you configure everything else as recommended here Optimizing Blue Iris's CPU Usage and make sure your memory is operating in dual channel.

Q2 A: I haven't used it.

Q3 A: I certainly would not buy one. High price. Wide angle. Wireless. Not the best low light performance. Arlo 2 (and other cloud cams) are only good if you value easy installation over ... basically everything else. For years it has been possible to buy substantially better cameras for less money, if you are willing and able to learn a bit of IP networking and run network cables.

 

[Trax95008]

OP, what is the purpose of the cameras? If they are simply meant for “monitoring” then I would agree to the higher frame rate. However, if they are meant for “security” then you will want a lower frame rate. For security reasons, a higher frame rate won’t gain you anything. A lower frame rate will provide you with a better “still” image. The stream as a whole, has a certain bit rate. That amount of data is divided into each frame. By reducing your frame rate from 30 to 15, you have just doubled the amount of data in each frame.

 

[Fishman57]

That last sentence has been something I`ve been thinking about and testing on my cameras. I love being able to view the video nice and smoothly at around 25-30 FPS in 4K and up to 60 FPS in daytime on the 2 MP, but then if I try to enlarge a frame even from the 4K cameras they tend to lose resolution. So, basically as I`ve read here before but never understood why, 15FPS ( or even less) should be sufficient for security purposes even though the playback would not be smooth?? The doubling of data in a frame makes alot of sense ,if youre planning on selecting a frame to use for ID or plate number ID? I am fairly new to this and every time I read here I get new information and insights . How does the frame rate setting apply for nighttime? Would a really low frame rate be better? Or is that when the manual shutter and iris would be used allowing more light .

 

[mat200]

That last sentence has been something I`ve been thinking about and testing on my cameras. I love being able to view the video nice and smoothly at around 25-30 FPS in 4K and up to 60 FPS in daytime on the 2 MP, but then if I try to enlarge a frame even from the 4K cameras they tend to lose resolution. So, basically as I`ve read here before but never understood why, 15FPS ( or even less) should be sufficient for security purposes even though the playback would not be smooth?? The doubling of data in a frame makes alot of sense ,if youre planning on selecting a frame to use for ID or plate number ID? I am fairly new to this and every time I read here I get new information and insights . How does the frame rate setting apply for nighttime? Would a really low frame rate be better? Or is that when the manual shutter and iris would be used allowing more light .

Hi @Fishman57

FPS, frame rate: 15 fps, 30 fps, 60 fps and more or less

Given: an IP camera is basically a computer that processing images and encoding them ( H.264 or H.265 )

More resolution, More fps, More motion detection / advanced features = more work.
More work requires a better computer.
A better computer typically costs more. ( how much are you willing to pay for a better camera? )

More FPS = more storage required, more bandwidth the network needs to handle.

So, this all is about compromises, and how much you are willing to spend.

In general 15 fps works well for most of the situations we are considering using cameras. ( car thieves, package thieves, .. )

Of course if you want to use a camera to better capture bird flights, or other fast moving scenes - then more fps is worth the price.

Now the question of smoothness.
If you want to use the camera to ID - then you really want a sharp image capture, not a smooth motion capture. You want to be able to read the plate - see the face. Note there are tuning settings in cameras which allow you to modify the image quality.

 

[Fishman57]

Thanks mat200 for your reply. I am going to test slower setting and the resulting captures.My computer is very recent with a Dell i7 XPS 8930 processor 64 GB RAM and an Nvidia 1080 .Thats the reason I didn`t want to use a seperate PC and Blue Iris recommended by some for my first foray into these cameras. I also use Synology SS with 8TB drives because I already had it. Can you clarify for me if the H.265 setting is utilized mostly because of the higher compression/ less storage feature? Does that also apply when remote viewing by DS CAM or other software over a cell or tablet? That is what I have been gathering from reading. Also why is it not recommended by most here not to to utilize Smart Codecs that seem to go along with that format? I have tried to use different setting besides default or Auto on the camera to optimize the picture . Are they mostly a benefit for night viewing with the manual adjustments I assume you are refering to :Shutter Priority and Gain Priority in the mode setting on my Dahua 4K and 2 Mp cameras. Are there baseline or commonly used settings for these options or is it trial and error depending on your cameras and situation?

 

[looney2ns]

@Fishman57 If you havn't yet, study this on a real computer: Cliff Notes Lots of your questions are answered there.
You want to know who did it, not just what happened.
15fps is fine for this purpose, you arn't filming a hollywood movie. I'm actually running most of my cams at 10fps, and once your brain gets used to viewing that, it's fine as well.
H.265-Yes
SmartCodecs typically disable other features in the cam, such as IVS. There isn't enough cpu to go around.
SmartCodecs are proprietary, thus only work on the same makers NVR. Blue Iris can't use them.
After dark you need at least a 1/60 or faster shutter to prevent blurred movement, higher is better. The higher the frame rate on most cameras the more light you need.