I have had this same conversation with many neighbors wanting cameras...and after all that they bought some Wyze cams lol
And then they call me when their cams missed the action to see if my cams caught anything on their property lol.
Comparing real pro cameras to home grade. More than resolution specs.
- Thread starter fastline12
- Start date
I have had this same conversation with many neighbors wanting cameras...and after all that they bought some Wyze cams lol
And then they call me when their cams missed the action to see if my cams caught anything on their property lol.
My apology for the ignorance Steve! I'm having to take a deep dive into security cam education. I am honestly trying to learn the price points! You guys have helped me more than you know! I believe we will likely settle on many of the 4MP Empires for much of this. I'm trying to soak this stuff up best I can. I know that cams alone can't really stop bad actors so I am trying to strategize on methods of thwarting intrusions. The videos linked in this thread very much help understand how noise devices can help. Seems that using the IVS systems to trigger I/O events may really help us.
The mention of a thermal cam is NOT in the current buildout plan, but something I'd like to consider afterwards. Only one, with a defined purpose.
As for a VMS solution, again, I don't know the price points! I will need to convey what I learn to IT to discuss.
I hate to put bugets together as until I have a grasp on what good gear really costs but I would say $5-10k is probably within reason.
I worked at a very large aerospace OEM where cams were added as new needs presented themselves. So I am trying to future-proof the build the best I can. This a complex facility spread over 6 buildings, with various business activities. It all makes my brain hurt.
I am mostly doing camera education so I can be mentally prepared to detail cam placement, qty, etc. I am trying to reduce the camera count through careful placement.
Even cheapest (Dahua DSS Pro, Nx Witness/Digital Watchdog) profesional VMS solution + cheap hardware will cost about 5k USD per 32 camera system.
So if think this is out of budget..
Normally each building is usually 6-8 overview cameras (2 front, 2 back, 1-2 per side) + some building entrance/exits detailed/zoomed cams..
For bigger buildings or building with strange shaped it can take more..
Plus You must count cameras for each plot entrances / exit... sometimes parking places or internal roads...
And some solution for plot protection (especially for that problematic back)..
this can be done in many ways (zoomed/PTZ cameras from buildings, cameras on poles or on the plot fence)..
for this plot size it will take a lot of cams..
it's very hard to limit camera count - if you want to do good cctv system, usually You need to add more cams as You think.
Especially after first install You will see that there are missing cams/dead splot here or there - and You must add more
ps. another type of cam for plot /long distance protection, it can be mounted on the plot fence or poles inside the plot fence (on sides)...
MFW5241T2-E3-ASE
it protects 100m long road/path using 3 cameras sensors/lenses with 3 different zoom levels..
it have 3 fixed lenses: 3.6mm, 12mm and 25mm..
2Mpx each (1/2.8")/speaker/mic/8 LEDs/AI on each channel/motorized vertical angle (vertical mini PTZ)..
part of WizMind 5 line..
there is no spec on Dahua website for now...
Facebook video from Polish Dahua channel with demonstration (sorry in Polish)...
View attachment MFW5241T2.mp4
So if think this is out of budget..
Normally each building is usually 6-8 overview cameras (2 front, 2 back, 1-2 per side) + some building entrance/exits detailed/zoomed cams..
For bigger buildings or building with strange shaped it can take more..
Plus You must count cameras for each plot entrances / exit... sometimes parking places or internal roads...
And some solution for plot protection (especially for that problematic back)..
this can be done in many ways (zoomed/PTZ cameras from buildings, cameras on poles or on the plot fence)..
for this plot size it will take a lot of cams..
it's very hard to limit camera count - if you want to do good cctv system, usually You need to add more cams as You think.
Especially after first install You will see that there are missing cams/dead splot here or there - and You must add more
ps. another type of cam for plot /long distance protection, it can be mounted on the plot fence or poles inside the plot fence (on sides)...
MFW5241T2-E3-ASE
it protects 100m long road/path using 3 cameras sensors/lenses with 3 different zoom levels..
it have 3 fixed lenses: 3.6mm, 12mm and 25mm..
2Mpx each (1/2.8")/speaker/mic/8 LEDs/AI on each channel/motorized vertical angle (vertical mini PTZ)..
part of WizMind 5 line..
there is no spec on Dahua website for now...
Facebook video from Polish Dahua channel with demonstration (sorry in Polish)...
View attachment MFW5241T2.mp4
Someone once said cameras multiply like bunnies lol
Would there happen to be any calcs or info regarding FOV, distance from target, and pixels to generally determine how good an image might be? We have a couple well lit areas where I would like to place cams in the corners, so a 90* FOV, with target distances of 20-100ft. If a 4MP cannot cover that, I might consider a 8MP. The one area I am thinking of would be covering entry and OH doors to 3 buildings, plus the main gate, so sort of an important one. I plan to have supplemental cams specifically targeting each gate, on the entrance side to grab very good detail of subjects approaching the card readers, and gathering vehicle and tag info. Just mentioning that I don't expect the 90* cam to do it all.
Do keep in mind though that the calculator is a rule of thumb calculator and works fairly decent at closer ranges, but the image you would get at longer distances, say at 175 feet for a camera capable of 175 feet will look much different in real world. The image they will show is from a picture taken like 10 feet from the person and the optics on these cameras just are not good enough to produce an image that good at longer distances. You may even see noticeable differences past about 40 feet or so.
That is why it really is best to do as suggested and purchase one 4MP varifocal and one 8MP varifocal and play with them at each location and figure out which will work best.
That is why it really is best to do as suggested and purchase one 4MP varifocal and one 8MP varifocal and play with them at each location and figure out which will work best.
Thank you guys yet again! The lens calc at least puts a little math to this, which is what I need. Is asking one camera to cover a 90* FOV a large ask? In one place, the position is so good that if I need two cams or a dual sensor, it would be justified. Just figured a single cam could do it.
Certainly agree on test cams. Will reach out to Empire this week and see what we can do. I want to keep the ball rolling here.
EDIT: I should prob use the term "viewing angle". It's easier to math in my head when onsite I guess.
Certainly agree on test cams. Will reach out to Empire this week and see what we can do. I want to keep the ball rolling here.
EDIT: I should prob use the term "viewing angle". It's easier to math in my head when onsite I guess.
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Depends on the distance!
An object that is 15 away is one camera while an object 120 feet away is a different camera. Both could be seen in a 90* FOV.
EVERY camera is a security risk if given internet access. It is why we do not give them internet access. That is the real problem that the government isn't addressing.
To combat the China thing, government needs to now buy NDAA compliant gear, which doesn't fix the original problem - don't let this stuff touch the internet.
Even high end NDAA compliant Axis got hacked last year.
Block the cams from the internet and go with the best bang for the buck and that will be Dahua and Hik and not 5 times the cost axis lol.
NDAA compliant Verkada was hacked and 150,000 cameras in private companies, along with prisons and public school systems were part of it..
It is why we recommend DO NOT LET YOUR CAMERAS OR NVR TOUCH THE INTERNET. You isolate them via VLAN or dual NIC.
At the end of the day there are not that many manufacturers out there. Dahua and Hikvision probably make more than the other manufacturers combined.
Many years ago IPVM made a little graphic showing some of the companies that sell Dahua or Hikvision OEM under their own label. This is just a partial sampling as the number of companies for each is in the hundreds, if not thousands.
Then you have other companies like Axis that costs 5 or 6 times what a Dahua camera costs. Or Reolink that suffers from poor night time quality. Or any of the consumer based stuff like Ring or Nest that are horrible at night as shown in this thread.
A member here is currently testing a $2,300 Axis camera and it doesn't come close to the performance of the less than $300 Dahua camera....
At the end of the day, most of us feel like Dahua is currently the leader in terms of price, performance day and night, reliability, functionality, etc.
So if you want to call us a fan club, then yea LOL. I have boxes and boxes of all types of cameras I have tried and none come close to the 2am quality I can get with Dahua cameras.
As mentioned, we have a trusted member here @EMPIRETECANDY that sells Dahua OEM gear. He used to also sell Hikvision gear, but moved away as their offerings are not as good and the cameras are more difficult to setup.
Andy's cameras are Dahua OEM equipment sold under the names Loryta and Empiretech. He also supplies them to the ipcamtalk store.
Some of my cameras I have bought from Andy from his Amazon store come as Dahua cams in Dahua boxes with Dahua logos, and some are not logo'd - I think it depends on how many cameras Andy buys if he gets them with the Dahua Logo or not. But regardless, they are Dahua units. If you get a unit that has Dahua on it, then the camera GUI will say Dahua; otherwise it will simply say IP Camera but looks identical except without the logo. Some of his cameras may come with EmpireTech stamped on them as well.
His cameras and NVRs are international models and many of them are not available through Dahua USA authorized dealers, but his cameras and NVRs are usually better than what you can find from a USA authorized dealer.
You can update the firmware on Andy's cameras and NVRs from the Dahua website, thus proving they are real Dahua. But you will find that the firmware we get from him is actually better and more recent than what is on the Dahua website because many members here provide feedback to Andy and then Dahua makes modifications to the firmware and sends back to him and then he sends out to his customers. These have been great improvements that Dahua doesn't even update their firmware and add to their website. So many of us are running a newer firmware than those that purchase Dahua cameras through professional installers. Smart IR on the 5442 series is one such improvement. Autotracking on the 49225 and 49425 PTZ is another. We got the next version of AI SMD 3.0 prior to anyone else as well.
Look at the threads here where members are actually testing firmware and improving it for Dahua - find a Dahua dealer with that type of relationship that Andy has with Dahua - I don't think you will find it. Look at the Dahua 4k camera on the 1/1.2" sensor as an example - Dahua provides cameras to Andy to sell before Dahua even made it available and look at all the improvements being made to the firmware from input from customers right here on this site. And the kicker is, we are not Dahua's target market - it is the professional installers...
@fastline12 I would just like to clarify some details about @wittaj post.
Axis got hacked in the beginning of 2022. Based upon my research, only some of Axis's internal systems were affected. The hackers got in by social engineering and not by any flaw or vulnerability. The hackers did NOT get access to any customer information, access to live video feeds or recorded video of any Axis camera. Axis cameras meet a ton of cybersecurity standards and are safe to have internet access (NOT port forwarding, but outbound internet access similar to your computer). Axis is constantly providing cybersecurity updates for their cameras (Each camera model gets approx 10 years of software updates from date of launch) Remote access should be done via VPN or Axis Secure Remote Access. Even if Axis Secure Remote Access got breached, that would only allow them to connect to your VMS server. The hackers would still need to login to your server with your credentials that are stored locally on the VMS server. Axis does not have access to that information. The only exception to this is if you use Axis Cloud backup which just launched this month.
The Axis camera @wittaj is referring to is the Axis Q1808-LE (12-48mm) with a MSRP of $2049. The model Q1808-LE the other forum member is testing is designed and optimized for coverage in wide open areas (think of a stadium, well lit parking lot etc.). However, the other forum member is using it for long range identification. The camera is being used for a purpose it was not designed or optimized to do. If you install any camera in a situation it was not designed for, you may get subpar results. This detail was conveniently left out.
I replaced my Dahua Color 4k-T with an Axis P1468-LE and a Dahua 5442 3.6mm turret with an Axis Q3538-LVE. Both of these cameras outperform the Dahua cameras I replaced in both image quality, image processing, bitrate control, firmware stability and cybersecurity. Axis cameras are very good at handing challenging lighting conditions such as half the scene is dark and half is bright sunlight. The camera will be able to process that image and still display a good face ID. The Dahua Color 4K-T has a close focus distance limitation anywhere from 10 to 20 feet depending on the lens. What that means is if an object is within that distance, it will be out of focus and blurry. Axis cameras do not suffer from this limitation. I also had to set the 4K-T to a CBR bitrate of above 16Mb/s or I would experience pixilation in the video if the scene became busy. The 4K-T needs a lot of fine tuning to get good images both day and night where the Axis camera can pretty much run at the default settings and get a better image (referencing the P1468-LE and Q3538-LVE). If you're interested, I posted day and night sample's of the Axis cameras on the other thread.
The price of Axis cameras aren't just for the image quality. You're also paying for 10 years of firmware updates to stay up to date with features and cybersecurity. They meet NDAA, TAA, FIPS 140-2 or 3 compliance, support zero trust networking and have support for signed video (adds cryptographic signatures to recorded video to verify the video is authentic and hasn't been tampered with). They also have additional cybersecurity features such as Edge Vault etc. They support integration to access control systems, primeter detection systems that include radar units, thermal imaging sensors, speakers, sirens/strobes and relay units. They support MQTT, VAPIX commands, ACAP (Axis Camera Application Platform) where apps can be developed and run directly on the camera itself. The higher end ones also have DLPU (Deep Learning Processing Units) for analytics. The Zipstream technology and compression allow these cameras to use less bitrate while maintaining image quality. My Axis cameras use about half of the storage/bitrate when compared to my Dahua cameras without sacrificing image quality.
If you're trying to keep your install on a lower budget, Dahua is the way to go. If you don't care about budget, and are interested in the Axis features I listed above, it might make more sense for you to use Axis.
Just keep in mind, this forum leans heavily towards BI and Dahua cameras. You will get a lot of support here if you purchase Dahua cameras. You won't get lot of support if you purchase Axis cameras.
Thanks yet again for such detailed help! I do believe Axis is some of the best gear right now. However, I think we need to pinch a bit until we can learn a few things around the place like if we have certain problems and where. Right now we have basically nothing. Literally a walmart package system would be an upgrade.
We have a LOT of other remodel work to do at the facility so this is just one component. I am pretty certain we will go to the Dahua cams, primarily because they have some salty features and support. I will admit though, they have more cameras than a farm dog has fleas. I've been trying to study so I can understand a good set of spacial parameters for a given MP, focal length, etc. At the end of the day, I will have to shoot my shot and see what happens. Probably some learning along the way.
I may bring my professional friend back in to assess the layout before I start drilling. I sort of want to see sample stills of say a 4MP, 100ft day and night shot just to understand where we will be roughly. Right now I am using calcs to determine a required FOV, then move to another calc to assess the PPM for DORI standards. At the end of the day, I will learn what PPM I think is good enough.
We have a LOT of other remodel work to do at the facility so this is just one component. I am pretty certain we will go to the Dahua cams, primarily because they have some salty features and support. I will admit though, they have more cameras than a farm dog has fleas. I've been trying to study so I can understand a good set of spacial parameters for a given MP, focal length, etc. At the end of the day, I will have to shoot my shot and see what happens. Probably some learning along the way.
I may bring my professional friend back in to assess the layout before I start drilling. I sort of want to see sample stills of say a 4MP, 100ft day and night shot just to understand where we will be roughly. Right now I am using calcs to determine a required FOV, then move to another calc to assess the PPM for DORI standards. At the end of the day, I will learn what PPM I think is good enough.
Np! Either system will give you good night quality as long as you choose the right camera. You can even mix and match the cameras if you choose the right VMS.
This forum is full of good information so I suggest reading a lot before you purchase anything.
Well....I spent hours at the facility today, doing my best to plan. Here is the general rundown, and hoping you guys can recommend the right cams or specs, of possible. I do realize one cam may not do it all, but.... Have 3 90* corner type spaces where interest gets as low as 15ft away, but as far as 75ft. The reality is these cams are carefully placed knowing a bad guy will certain approach them so at some point, they will be in the sweet spot. Now I don't know how the DORI specs will pan out, but I will know once tested if the image is decent, BUT, in some of this, we are more or less looking for "do we know this guy from somewhere?"
Next question is about the IVS systems in relation to DORI. I am realizing some things I may not get the detail I really desire BUT, my brain is wanting to exploit the powers of the AI cam systems and let them detect a body shape at a certain distance, and go into an alert. On the back half of the place, there should certainly NOT be humans back there, for any reason, not even walking by. It is not a public place. My thought is to let these cams detect, do what they do, and we get a couple false trips, I don't care.
And this drives me to another question about the I/O of these cams. How does that work? What are the common ways to wire up and use them? I don't have one in hand to know if they have dry contacts like these old Sonys or what? I was first wondering if I can burn a POE switch port and use that power for POE type alert devices but I think that is largely limiting. But because we have many hundreds of feet from the mother ship, I am trying to get it streamlined.
But I cannot understate enough that the back of this property is practically inaccessible to LEOs. Even if they were called, they can do nothing. I would have to remotely open gates for them. This is why the back area needs fortified well.
Next question is about the IVS systems in relation to DORI. I am realizing some things I may not get the detail I really desire BUT, my brain is wanting to exploit the powers of the AI cam systems and let them detect a body shape at a certain distance, and go into an alert. On the back half of the place, there should certainly NOT be humans back there, for any reason, not even walking by. It is not a public place. My thought is to let these cams detect, do what they do, and we get a couple false trips, I don't care.
And this drives me to another question about the I/O of these cams. How does that work? What are the common ways to wire up and use them? I don't have one in hand to know if they have dry contacts like these old Sonys or what? I was first wondering if I can burn a POE switch port and use that power for POE type alert devices but I think that is largely limiting. But because we have many hundreds of feet from the mother ship, I am trying to get it streamlined.
But I cannot understate enough that the back of this property is practically inaccessible to LEOs. Even if they were called, they can do nothing. I would have to remotely open gates for them. This is why the back area needs fortified well.
It will be interesting to see if you get enough visible light to allow a camera to get the close up and the distance at night.
Keep in mind that you may be used to cameras set on default/auto settings, which gives a nice bright static image, but motion is a blur.
You need faster shutters to freeze frame to get clean captures of a perp in motion with no or minimal blur.
The faster the shutter, the darker the image because it needs more light.
You will be surprised how much light these cameras need, especially at distance.
If you are able to provide the same light intensity at 75 feet as you are 15 feet, you might stand a chance.
But a light on the building projecting out, unless specialized lighting, dissipates quickly at distance.
Maybe for some of those back areas you should consider thermal cameras. Much less risk of false triggers and it doesn't need light.
These cameras are POE cameras, so you either need a POE injector, POE switch, or NVR or with POE ports. Well you could run them with 12VDC wall warts, but then it is just more wires LOL.
I would consider POE+ power in the event you add PTZs later.
Depending on the camera, they may have additional cabling that could range from audio in, audio out, alarm in, alarm out. If you need power for one of those devices, like a mic, then an adapter is used to pull some power off the POE to power the camera and the device.
Keep in mind that you may be used to cameras set on default/auto settings, which gives a nice bright static image, but motion is a blur.
You need faster shutters to freeze frame to get clean captures of a perp in motion with no or minimal blur.
The faster the shutter, the darker the image because it needs more light.
You will be surprised how much light these cameras need, especially at distance.
If you are able to provide the same light intensity at 75 feet as you are 15 feet, you might stand a chance.
But a light on the building projecting out, unless specialized lighting, dissipates quickly at distance.
Maybe for some of those back areas you should consider thermal cameras. Much less risk of false triggers and it doesn't need light.
These cameras are POE cameras, so you either need a POE injector, POE switch, or NVR or with POE ports. Well you could run them with 12VDC wall warts, but then it is just more wires LOL.
I would consider POE+ power in the event you add PTZs later.
Depending on the camera, they may have additional cabling that could range from audio in, audio out, alarm in, alarm out. If you need power for one of those devices, like a mic, then an adapter is used to pull some power off the POE to power the camera and the device.
Ah, and you mention the lighting. So this is a two fold deal because we are combining unmetered lighting served to us from the power company as LED flood lights, and we are running some of our own so the place will be lit with approx 500k lumens. The question is a few of these cams will sort of be looking at these flood lights that are about 20ft up. I have concerns the lighting could affect he cams?
I agree on thermal, it would be so much easier, but I've yet to find anything decent on a budget.
Yeah, I totally don't want to run a piddly 12V. I think we have learned that higher voltage wins he race. I was at least going to POE+ spec, seem ++ is still a little new. I am all about turning the volts up. I believe ++ was combining some conductors.
I was surprised, but probably not, that I am at 27 cams, and I don't even have the place fully covered. Way I look at it is focus on some choke points and criminals are certain to move towards the entries. At some point, I just can't cover it all without a walmart budget.
I agree on thermal, it would be so much easier, but I've yet to find anything decent on a budget.
Yeah, I totally don't want to run a piddly 12V. I think we have learned that higher voltage wins he race. I was at least going to POE+ spec, seem ++ is still a little new. I am all about turning the volts up. I believe ++ was combining some conductors.
I was surprised, but probably not, that I am at 27 cams, and I don't even have the place fully covered. Way I look at it is focus on some choke points and criminals are certain to move towards the entries. At some point, I just can't cover it all without a walmart budget.
All 802.3 POE versions use combined conductors, with the lower power types using 2 conductors for + power and 2 conductors for - power. 51 watt POE++ MAY use all 8 conductors for power delivery, while 71 watt POE++ MUST use all 8 conductors for power delivery.
Given what you are trying to accomplish, the $475ish thermals I linked are not a bad price in the big scheme of things.
27 cameras LOL - many here have more than that for a 2,000sf house on a quarter acre lot
Ha, I think the overall magnitude of the job, the thousands of feet of cable, etc. 27 cameras seems daunting already...Given what you are trying to accomplish, the $475ish thermals I linked are not a bad price in the big scheme of things.
27 cameras LOL - many here have more than that for a 2,000sf house on a quarter acre lot
As mentioned before, I have keen interest in thermal, but the area is is large and I have no concept of how much area a thermal can cover. The ones you linked seem more close range? Again, with any thermal campaign, the goal would not be to ID as much as spot a potential threat and alert. I want people spotted even before they ever get to our fence.
But again, is there some level of math or specification that could help determine how far the tripwire type systems can be considered reliable? I'm not as worried about false alerts as I am not seeing any threat until it's 20ft from a camera. I was seriously impressed with your picture of a guy in a blizzard! That really set bells off for me that half of my strategy is that detection method. Obviously thermal would be way better at this.
There is no hard/fast rule on how well the IVS works.
Factors such as field of view, height of camera, available light, etc. all impact how well the AI works.
I have seen people come here with issues of IVS not triggering within Identify distance due to angle and height of camera placement.
Some people a 2.8mm fixed lens have a field of view that IVS works well 80 feet out, while others have trouble at 25 feet out.
As a rule of thumb, it should work reliably within recognize range, but one would want to test it in their setup for relying on it.
The thermals on the other hand I have found to be very reliable at distances that my visual camera cannot see.
But like you said, there is no IDENTIFY with those. My 3ishmm focal length thermal is very accurate at triggering for people at 600 feet. You could get the 7ish mm version for even better accuracy at distance. The visual would struggle even during the day.
Factors such as field of view, height of camera, available light, etc. all impact how well the AI works.
I have seen people come here with issues of IVS not triggering within Identify distance due to angle and height of camera placement.
Some people a 2.8mm fixed lens have a field of view that IVS works well 80 feet out, while others have trouble at 25 feet out.
As a rule of thumb, it should work reliably within recognize range, but one would want to test it in their setup for relying on it.
The thermals on the other hand I have found to be very reliable at distances that my visual camera cannot see.
But like you said, there is no IDENTIFY with those. My 3ishmm focal length thermal is very accurate at triggering for people at 600 feet. You could get the 7ish mm version for even better accuracy at distance. The visual would struggle even during the day.
Normal profesional thermal cams (fixed and PTZ)) have usually narrow horizontal FoV at 10-20 degrees for thermal sensor..
And that models are designed to works on very long distances (thermal part for hundreds of meters)..
But they don't cover much width of the FoV..
There are models with horizontal FoV at 40 degrees.. sometimes even more..
Dahua in cheapest (Eureka line - mini bullet and mini turret) low resolution line have even one model (turret for house/SMB market) with more that 80 degrees of FoV for thermal..
Andy have this model in his shop...
But this is more a toy... Very low thermal resolution (256 x 192) and very bad video image sensor.
Even with built-in IR at night quality is bad (noisy as hell), visible video part of those cheap Eureka thermals is not usable at night without very strong lighting (IR or normal)..
Not so good for long distances...
I bought this model and I was very disappointed.
If You will try this cheap model, buy model with narrow optics for longer distances..
Thermal can You resolve many problems with big areas - like the back of the plot..
And see in bushes...
But good thermal implementation will cost You a lot..
Minimum few times more that normal video cameras...
Dahua have pro thermal solutions (fixed and PTZ) with higher thermal resolution and bigger image sensors...
You can ask Andy for prices..
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