Comparing real pro cameras to home grade. More than resolution specs.

[fastline12]

One more thing:

there is premium version of 5442/5842 called 5442H-ZHE / 5842H-ZHE, which are 5442/5842 with 7442/7842 (Ultra line) optics, chassis and double mic system.
they cost 30-40USD more, are bigger, more rugged and they have junction box in set.
Andy don't have this models in shop, buy You can order by DM (I ordered those models a few times)...

One biggest difference between normal and premium H-ZHE models are more open much brighter aperture for normal varifocal model.
Normal 5442-ZE have aperture which starts at F1.8.
Premium 5442H-ZHE have aperture which starts at F1.2

this is 2x more light (one F-stop) captured by sensor at most open aperture at minimum zoom level.
If you really interested in 5842 (due DORI), you can try to revert to some degree worse night performance by using 5842H-ZHE bullet models..

IPC-HFW5842H-ZHE - Dahua International

IPC-HFW5842H-ZHE

www.dahuasecurity.com

Hmm, you stepped on something that I need more clarity on. The aperture. I don't think there will be any issue splurging a bit for better gear, given all the labor that has to go into this! Can you explain more on the aperture?

As well, I think I am reevaluating the application of PTZ. I was going to sidestep that for the moment, but I am starting to feel like if I can use detection from other cams to guide a PTZ to a target, it might be a super wise investment since we don't know where the threat will be, but a PTZ can zoom right in on them and track, possibly even getting reasonable IDs. I have a corner in mind that is extremely vast for stationary cams. This PTZ would be ideal if you can pull off solid tracking at 250ft.

And it does seem like when trying to cover larger areas, higher pixies wins as long as the sensor sizing is honored?

But that does get me back to more simple question that I haven't got an answer to yet. How can I determine the minimum distance from a camera for a decent focused image? Can it be calculated or is that just an individual function of each cam? As I used this little software piece, it at least lets me play with pixel density and other settings to get an idea.

 

[wittaj]

As I have said, a focused image with clarity is a function of focal length to distance. These cameras are not infinity focus, although some do better than others.

A camera for clarity at 20 feet is different camera than a camera at 200 feet.

That software is a guide but I assure you the image it shows for 200 feet will be better than in the real world.

Since you will need so many, buy one camera to play with and learn capabilities and limitations.

What works for your field of view may not work for mine and vice versa.

 

[steve1225]

Hmm, you stepped on something that I need more clarity on. The aperture. I don't think there will be any issue splurging a bit for better gear, given all the labor that has to go into this! Can you explain more on the aperture?

As well, I think I am reevaluating the application of PTZ. I was going to sidestep that for the moment, but I am starting to feel like if I can use detection from other cams to guide a PTZ to a target, it might be a super wise investment since we don't know where the threat will be, but a PTZ can zoom right in on them and track, possibly even getting reasonable IDs. I have a corner in mind that is extremely vast for stationary cams. This PTZ would be ideal if you can pull off solid tracking at 250ft.

And it does seem like when trying to cover larger areas, higher pixies wins as long as the sensor sizing is honored?

But that does get me back to more simple question that I haven't got an answer to yet. How can I determine the minimum distance from a camera for a decent focused image? Can it be calculated or is that just an individual function of each cam? As I used this little software piece, it at least lets me play with pixel density and other settings to get an idea.

in very simply words aperture is how big hole in lens iris is?
more bigger (open) then more light is coming to sensor..

in zoomed lenses (in photography and in cctv cameras) when You zoom to smaller object aperture is closing.
So all zoomed (varifocal) lenses have range of aperture - one for minimum zoom one for maximum one...
Dahua in spec sheets gives information only on max aperture (so for minimum zoom)..

Fixed lenses 54IR/58IR have aperture F1.6
Normal ZE lenses have starting aperture F1.8 (so they are darker) and this aperture is closing when You zoom in
Z4E lenses have starting aperture F1.6 and this is closing
the premium variant H-ZHE fave starting aperture F1.2 - so this is brightest optics for 54IR/58IR

All Full color cams have aperture F1.0 - so full open aperture..

PS. please remember that opening aperture to max, creates problem called Bokeh effect (Bokeh - Wikipedia) where object very near or very far are out of focus..
Full color cams don't have regulation of focus, like 54IR/58IR have...

 

[steve1225]

And it does seem like when trying to cover larger areas, higher pixies wins as long as the sensor sizing is honored?

yes..
but bigger sensors and more open aperture creates problem with focus.. Bokeh effect is more prominent..

this is way I don't use at all Color4K cams.. and they are more like toys for me...

But that does get me back to more simple question that I haven't got an answer to yet. How can I determine the minimum distance from a camera for a decent focused image? Can it be calculated or is that just an individual function of each cam? As I used this little software piece, it at least lets me play with pixel density and other settings to get an idea.

camera specification...
model with fixed lenses have fixed focus - so usually the focus start somewhere at 1-2 meters (in full color cams more, sometimes much more like 3.6m Color4K)..

models with varifocal have changeable zoom and focus - the same motor can change both.. when You zoom camera, camera usually also auto focus.. you can change this focus manually..

ps. You should simply order 2-3 different Dahua models and simply play with them.. You are doing this exercise in full theoretical way, without previous practical experience.. it will be much easer to You understand everything when You will have those cams in hand..

 

[fastline12]

Fully agree that at some point, I need to get some cams and test! Question, having not even run a vari focal, will any of these attempt to automatically change focal length or focus to attempt a best shot when something is detected in IVS? Or is that level of automation only reserved for PTZ?

Also, is it quite a feat to direct a PTZ where to look when an overview cam detects a target? Is that type of functionality only possible with a Dahua NVR?

 

[bigredfish]

in very simply words aperture is how big hole in lens iris is?
more bigger (open) then more light is coming to sensor..

in zoomed lenses (in photography and in cctv cameras) when You zoom to smaller object aperture is closing.
So all zoomed (varifocal) lenses have range of aperture - one for minimum zoom one for maximum one...
Dahua in spec sheets gives information only on max aperture (so for minimum zoom)..

Fixed lenses 54IR/58IR have aperture F1.6
Normal ZE lenses have starting aperture F1.8 (so they are darker) and this aperture is closing when You zoom in
Z4E lenses have starting aperture F1.6 and this is closing
the premium variant H-ZHE fave starting aperture F1.2 - so this is brightest optics for 54IR/58IR

All Full color cams have aperture F1.0 - so full open aperture..

PS. please remember that opening aperture to max, creates problem called Bokeh effect (Bokeh - Wikipedia) where object very near or very far are out of focus..
Full color cams don't have regulation of focus, like 54IR/58IR have...

Exactly this

That’s why I bought 2 of the 5442H-ZHE

 

[looney2ns]

Fully agree that at some point, I need to get some cams and test! Question, having not even run a vari focal, will any of these attempt to automatically change focal length or focus to attempt a best shot when something is detected in IVS? Or is that level of automation only reserved for PTZ?

Also, is it quite a feat to direct a PTZ where to look when an overview cam detects a target? Is that type of functionality only possible with a Dahua NVR?

1-No

2-blue Iris can do this as well.

 

[wittaj]

Fully agree that at some point, I need to get some cams and test! Question, having not even run a vari focal, will any of these attempt to automatically change focal length or focus to attempt a best shot when something is detected in IVS? Or is that level of automation only reserved for PTZ?

Also, is it quite a feat to direct a PTZ where to look when an overview cam detects a target? Is that type of functionality only possible with a Dahua NVR?

No a varifocal is a set it and forget it. A PTZ will adjust.

I posted several posts back the thread on how to use a spotter cam for a PTZ or BI. At the moment BI does it a bit better in that you can tell the PTZ if it is in active tracking to not change if another camera triggers it.

Thread 'Using Spotter Cameras to direct a PTZ where to look in an NVR or Blue Iris and setting a spotter cam as a priority in Blue Iris'

Mar 12, 2022

We get this question from time to time, so I thought with the recent addition to BI, it made sense to have a thread we can point to.

Previously in BI, if you had more than one spotter cam, you could not make one a priority, so if spotter cam #1 triggered the PTZ and it starts tracking and spotter cam #2 is triggered, it would then take the PTZ off of spotter cam #1 tracking and move to the preset for spotter cam #2.

Now with BI 5.5.6.0, you can go into the PTZ tab in the Camera setttings and go to the preset that you want to have priority and check the "cancel alerts when the camera is...

• wittaj
• Replies: 167
• Forum: Customizing

• 
• 

 

[MR2]

the other thing to consider when embarking on this is if you get involved, will you be taking any responsibility for if the system does not perform, you can work on this and it can take a massive amount of time + then become on your head to maintain.

 

[fastline12]

No a varifocal is a set it and forget it. A PTZ will adjust.

I posted several posts back the thread on how to use a spotter cam for a PTZ or BI. At the moment BI does it a bit better in that you can tell the PTZ if it is in active tracking to not change if another camera triggers it.

Thread 'Using Spotter Cameras to direct a PTZ where to look in an NVR or Blue Iris and setting a spotter cam as a priority in Blue Iris'

Mar 12, 2022

We get this question from time to time, so I thought with the recent addition to BI, it made sense to have a thread we can point to.

Previously in BI, if you had more than one spotter cam, you could not make one a priority, so if spotter cam #1 triggered the PTZ and it starts tracking and spotter cam #2 is triggered, it would then take the PTZ off of spotter cam #1 tracking and move to the preset for spotter cam #2.

Now with BI 5.5.6.0, you can go into the PTZ tab in the Camera setttings and go to the preset that you want to have priority and check the "cancel alerts when the camera is...

• wittaj
• Replies: 167
• Forum: Customizing

• 
• 

My apology sir! I remembered you mentioned it and I've been trying to soak up all your helpful data. The brain just can only soak up so much in one squeeze.

So, I have several places that I feel the 5442 variants will be perfectly great! Like simply monitoring traffic right at the gate entrances. Each cam will be very close and I'm good with it. But I do feel there are a few that could benefit from an 8MP, 1/1.2 sensor. Which variants would those be?

I think I am mentally adjusting my approach to consider 1-3 PTZ, especially with your mentioning about spotters. However, as I comb for Dahua PTZ vids, I keep running into these "color" PTZ, or ones with white light onboard, as well as red/blue flashy things.

I will post one example linky.

But with the mention of a big and fixed aperture on these color cams, I am wondering if PTZ suffers the same as they can zoom/focus? Not that I am hung on color as we will have flood lights, but seems many have it?

And then I see these like "3in1" type cams with like a dual sensor 180 with a PTZ under them, and I am wondering if they are more or less toys or useful? I guess in a way, I am trying to put some research into PTZs. I think our situation is complicated enough that having PTZ could be a big help, especially covering a large range of distances.

 

[wittaj]

There is no variant of thr 8MP 1/1.2" except for bullet or turret and 2.8 or 3.6mm

But as we have all said they suffer from narrow focus and most here don't use them for much except overview. But some people think more MP is better and learn the hard way lol

PTZs suffer the same as someone mentioned above about varifocal but worse as you zoom in and the aperture gets worse. You need exponentially more light the further away you get.

With the exception of the $2k PTZ, the white lights on the TIOC PTZs are useless.

 

[Ri22o]

Fully agree that at some point, I need to get some cams and test! Question, having not even run a vari focal, will any of these attempt to automatically change focal length or focus to attempt a best shot when something is detected in IVS? Or is that level of automation only reserved for PTZ?

Also, is it quite a feat to direct a PTZ where to look when an overview cam detects a target? Is that type of functionality only possible with a Dahua NVR?

I use camera's IVS and BI.

Thread 'Video of how my spotter cam's IVS rules call my PTZ to auto-track.'

Jun 5, 2023

With more people looking to get a PTZ and asking about it moving to a preset and auto-tracking I decided to put a video together. This shows how the PTZ goes from parked to a preset based on an IVS trigger from a spotter camera. From this preset the PTZ has its own IVS rules to tell it to auto-track.

Hardware:
PTZ: SD4A425DB-HNY
Spotter: HFW5241E-Z12E
VMS: Blue Iris

How it happens:
The spotter is using IVS rules with trip wires. They are one way A > B and Person detection.
If a person is detected, and they break the trip wire, an ONVIF trigger is sent to Blue Iris.
The...

• Ri22o
• Replies: 23
• Forum: Pics & Videos

• 
• 

 

[fastline12]

Question, Steve recommended one of the Empire PTZs. Linky. EmpireTech PTZ5A4M-25X 1/1.8" CMOS 4MP 25x Starlight IR 5.4mm–135mm Va

However, I was trying to find which this is on the Dahua site and there are two that I can only see differences in software or IVS type features?

But as for PTZs in general, I do see them as 'less' reliable than a fixed cam due to moving components, wear, etc. I am curious what the industry word is on these? How many years do they go? What fails? As a manufacturing guy, I was thinking about these "scan routines" and how that constant motion could either keep them moving good or eventually wear them out. I sort of doubt the mechanics of them are very robust given how fast the industry moves. They might consider them a relic in 2yrs.

 

[wittaj]

PTZs are only good for so many cycles. It is why we suggest spotter instead of constant patrol moving around.

Rumor is like 500,000 cycles. People running it on constant patrol moving every 7 seconds has got the warning in under two years.

 

[fastline12]

PTZs are only good for so many cycles. It is why we suggest spotter instead of constant patrol moving around.

Rumor is like 500,000 cycles. People running it on constant patrol moving every 7 seconds has got the warning in under two years.

Oh boy! Sounds like park it in an otherwise dead area and only let it zing when the time comes....

 

[wittaj]

Oh boy! Sounds like park it in an otherwise dead area and only let it zing when the time comes....

Not necessarily. Many people have had theirs working for years. They just don't have it track EVERYTHING.

Like in a subdivision, do I really need it to try to chase autotrack every vehicle that goes by? Or just people walking? Or maybe only during certain hours?

Same in your location - set up parameters that it should track when you want it to and not when you don't. Maybe during working hours no reason to track people all around a certain location?

 

[Alaska Country]

If you are interested in moving forward, then it would be best to start buying some hardware and trying out a few cameras and go on from there. Without any first hand experience one will be stuck in a quagmire of soliciting too much advice which may or may not apply to your desired needs and/or location. Plus, as time goes on, your original needs will most likely change as you gain experience.

As other have suggested, get one of the 5442 ZE bullets, a 5442 Z4E bullet and one PTZ. Then add either a NVR or BI for you video storage and control system. If using BI then a POE switch will be needed to power the camera over Ethernet cable.

Last year Andy had a sale around Thanksgiving (Black Friday). Would expect the same this year. Good time to buy!

 

[steve1225]

Question, Steve recommended one of the Empire PTZs. Linky. EmpireTech PTZ5A4M-25X 1/1.8" CMOS 4MP 25x Starlight IR 5.4mm–135mm Va

However, I was trying to find which this is on the Dahua site and there are two that I can only see differences in software or IVS type features?

But as for PTZs in general, I do see them as 'less' reliable than a fixed cam due to moving components, wear, etc. I am curious what the industry word is on these? How many years do they go? What fails? As a manufacturing guy, I was thinking about these "scan routines" and how that constant motion could either keep them moving good or eventually wear them out. I sort of doubt the mechanics of them are very robust given how fast the industry moves. They might consider them a relic in 2yrs.

SD5A425GA-HNR - Dahua International

SD5A425GA-HNR

www.dahuasecurity.com

Good PTZ working in Auto-tracking mode works without problems 5 years...

Please remember that all cameras (also fixed ones) after 5 years start to show some degradation - sensors, lenses, motors...
Especially on cams which watch directly into sun for some part of day I observed that sensors/lenses degrades in very slow process which takes many years.
they are not so sharp or don't have high light/color dynamic the same as a new cams...

The development of technology and new models causes them also to become obsolete. Like your 720p sony cams from first post..

 

[fastline12]

One more thing:

there is premium version of 5442/5842 called 5442H-ZHE / 5842H-ZHE, which are 5442/5842 with 7442/7842 (Ultra line) optics, chassis and double mic system.
they cost 30-40USD more, are bigger, more rugged and they have junction box in set.
Andy don't have this models in shop, buy You can order by DM (I ordered those models a few times)...

One biggest difference between normal and premium H-ZHE models are more open much brighter aperture for normal varifocal model.
Normal 5442-ZE have aperture which starts at F1.8.
Premium 5442H-ZHE have aperture which starts at F1.2

this is 2x more light (one F-stop) captured by sensor at most open aperture at minimum zoom level.
If you really interested in 5842 (due DORI), you can try to revert to some degree worse night performance by using 5842H-ZHE bullet models..

IPC-HFW5842H-ZHE - Dahua International

IPC-HFW5842H-ZHE

www.dahuasecurity.com

Steve, I am interested in the 5442H-ZHE model you speak of. If I understand correct, the aperture being more open can improve light gathering thus better night performance? If so and there are no down sides, I am curious which model that might correspond to at Empire?

 

[fastline12]

If you are interested in moving forward, then it would be best to start buying some hardware and trying out a few cameras and go on from there. Without any first hand experience one will be stuck in a quagmire of soliciting too much advice which may or may not apply to your desired needs and/or location. Plus, as time goes on, your original needs will most likely change as you gain experience.

As other have suggested, get one of the 5442 ZE bullets, a 5442 Z4E bullet and one PTZ. Then add either a NVR or BI for you video storage and control system. If using BI then a POE switch will be needed to power the camera over Ethernet cable.

Last year Andy had a sale around Thanksgiving (Black Friday). Would expect the same this year. Good time to buy!

Very much agree! I think I am pretty close to 'thinking' I know what I need. Probably just need to see the 4MP bullets onsite. The main issue is the power company is dragging their feet with our light upgrades.