EMPIRETECANDY
IPCT Vendor
aha i booked some 4MP Z4, If you want the 4K can book for you.
Dahua WIZMIND X SERIES
- Thread starter EMPIRETECANDY
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Parley
Known around here
Yes, I would like the 4K model. However, I will not be able to pay for it until around June 10. So, order accordingly. Thank You Andy.
I installed the HDBW7842E1-Z-X at my little bird bath because the audio isn't as important there. Here is a 4K/60fps live YouTube stream of it:
The first visitors arrived when I was writing this, two little goldfinches drinking. Took a snapshot.
At night, I don't run the IR because there's an IR floodlight in the garden but it performs really well seeing the whole garden in shades of grey.
This is a screenshot on my laptop, so isn't even the full resolution. Great camera, shame about the sound!
(And yes, I oversaturate it on purpose, gives my streams a bit of a Disney feel
)
The first visitors arrived when I was writing this, two little goldfinches drinking. Took a snapshot.
At night, I don't run the IR because there's an IR floodlight in the garden but it performs really well seeing the whole garden in shades of grey.
This is a screenshot on my laptop, so isn't even the full resolution. Great camera, shame about the sound!
(And yes, I oversaturate it on purpose, gives my streams a bit of a Disney feel
)EMPIRETECANDY
IPCT Vendor
Wooo amazing video, very very nice, and crazy good mic.
Well I can't deny the mic is clear enough, but compared to (if you check my YT channel) the ground feeder or bird feeder (the latter of which has the noise filter on) it's really flat. They're both old 5231 eyeballs. Curiously some of the exact same model have flatter mics too, I think the ones produced in a certain time period just had super quality audio components in and I was lucky!
alekk
Pulling my weight
Funny you should say that as normally with the cameras that only have a use in the day, I set them to color mode and they don't switch anyway as I've found with the 5231s that the cameras can glitch more in night mode, causing them to desynchronise from the others when bringing them into OBS for the multi-stream, but even though I've set it to color mode on a '24 hours of day mode' setting it still goes into b/w at night. But it's a nice view so I forgive the firmware this time.
EMPIRETECANDY
IPCT Vendor
Thanks to @patc authorize, i get some very good video from his youtube link.
Birds bathing by Empire Ultra 4K Camera - YouTube
Birds bathing by Empire Ultra 4K Camera - YouTube
Thanks Andy.
Took me a bit longer than I was expecting, but here's the little montage I put together which demos the camera's capability pretty well I think:
EMPIRETECANDY
IPCT Vendor
Very very nice, i love the green and those beautiful birds, BBC Wild Level.
That's a beautiful and vivid video! The detailed close up and clear shots of so many different kind of birds is mesmerizing.
Thanks to Andy, I received another one of the same model extremely quickly. I was away for a couple of weeks but have installed it today.
Here it is:
The focal lengths are so precise compared to the 2MP cameras - I think I'll need to raise it up a bit so more of the picture has focus, or perhaps I should have ordered the less wideangled lens version, not sure! Either way it's a huge improvement on the previous 5231 eyeball on that table.
Here it is:
The focal lengths are so precise compared to the 2MP cameras - I think I'll need to raise it up a bit so more of the picture has focus, or perhaps I should have ordered the less wideangled lens version, not sure! Either way it's a huge improvement on the previous 5231 eyeball on that table.
Tygunn
Getting comfortable
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From the specs PDF this intrigues me. I wonder how reliably you'd be able to pick out a plate on a moving car with this camera. The IPC-HFW5241E-Z12E we seem to use commonly for DIY would need to be exposed at night such that all you'd see if the car...
steve1225
Getting comfortable
I don't think that will happen...
WizMind-X cameras (Ultra line) are mostly for best sensors & optics and wide selection of "very specific" AI modes (PPE detection, ANPT, parking solutions). Wiz-Mind-X have 10 different AI modes.. They are not for general use (like buying 20 WizMind-X cameras to protect some building) but for very specific usage scenarios (so You use 18 other more general cameras + 2 WizMind-X for very specific usage).
For general use You have WizMind-S cameras (Pro line). They use the same sensors, and If you buy "premium" 5xxxH (not 5xxxE) versions - You have the same bigger chassis and varifocal optics with very open F/1.2 aperture from WizMind-X (Ultra line) for 2-3x less money.. The only difference is AI modes - Pro line have only 5 more general AI modes + AcuPick.
AcuPick enabled on camera disables other AI modes.. You have AcuPick and IVS.. You can't enable AcuPick with other AI modes.. So in case of WizMind-X, which You buy mostly for the extra AI modes implementing AcuPick kills the value of this cameras..
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Sit back here comes a wall of text LOL.
Because those in the surveillance industry recognize the limitations of these types of cameras.
Shutter speed is more important than FPS. I capture plates at 8FPS and the plate is in and out of the field of view in about a half second (so I capture 4 frames) because I am using the correct shutter speed for the task at hand.
And because the data for the image is stored in KB/s, the more frames per second you use, the less data available per frame. See this thread.
As an example, what about a camera that maxes out bitrate at 8,192 KB/s:
60FPS at 8,192 KB/s bitrate is 136KB per frame
30FPS at 8,192 KB/s bitrate is 273KB per frame
15FPS at 8,192 KB/s bitrate is 546 KB per frame - or double the KB data at 30FPS or four times the data amount at 60FPS! So you essentially degrade the image running higher FPS. And with a lot of motion, that could essentially render a 12MP image more like 3MP to 8MP image at 60FPS.
Sure 60FPS can provide a smoother video but no police officer has said "wow that person really is running smooth". They want the ability to freeze frame and get a clean image. So be it if the video is a little choppy....and at 10-15FPS it won't be appreciable. My neighbor runs his at 60FPS, so the person or car goes by looking smooth, but it is a blur when trying to freeze frame it because the camera can't keep up. Meanwhile my camera at 15FPS with the proper shutter speed gets the clean shots.
We wouldn't take these cameras to an NBA game to broadcast, nor would we take the cameras they use at an NBA game to put on a house. Not all cameras are alike and the approach of "a camera is a camera" mentality will result in failure. Another example, I can watch an MLB game and they can slow it down to see the stitching on the baseball. Surveillance cams are not capable of that. You need to find a camera for the intended purpose.
Watch these, for most of us, it isn't annoying until below 10FPS
Keep in mind that these type of cameras, although are spec'd and capable of these various parameters, real world testing by many of us shows if you try to run these units at higher FPS and higher bitrates than needed that you will max out the CPU in the unit and then it bugs out just long enough that you miss something or video is choppy or pixelated or you get lost signals. My car is rated for 6,000RPM redline, but I am not gonna run it in 3rd gear on the highway at 6,000RPM...same with these types of units - gotta keep them under rated capacity. Some may do better than others, but trying to use the rated "spec" of every option available is usually not going to work well, either with a car or a camera or NVR.
I'm not saying my analogy of a car redline or MPG is a perfect analogy, but rather I am pointing out a fact that stuff we buy is always marketed as more capable than it is, especially if you are using all of the features. Does your car get its stated MPG in every situation - NO...
Can a little 4 cylinder base model Ford go up an interstate incline of 4% with the air conditioning at full blast at the speed limit - NO. I remember growing up we would have to turn off the AC going up big hills LOL. We called it turbo boost LOL.
Do we really believe every marketing claim of every product you see on Amazon?
Just like a computer - it is rated for this and that, but if you are running the CPU at 100%, something is going to give. Same with these little cameras with a lot less computing power.
So a few of my cams have a system status screen, and they call it a CPU, so that is why I am calling it a CPU, but this shows this camera running at 8192 bitrate, H264, CBR, and 12 FPS is hitting the camera processor at 47% and jumps to 70% with motion. If I up the camera to 30 FPS, the usage is in the high 90% range, but then with motion, it maxes out and would get unstable.
Or if I keep it at 12 FPS and use the camera motion detection, the CPU in the camera goes to 60% idle.
This would be nice if all cams had this so we could see how our settings impact the performance of the camera. I think running these cams close to capacity is probably harder to overcome than a computer spike at 100% CPU.
At the end of the day, if the unknowing consumer wants cameras that can do 30 or 60 FPS, they will not look at any cameras that do not have that rated spec, so some companies will throw that in to appease the person looking for that. Unfortunately, that is marketing. It takes someone with experience in the industry to know for sure if it is really capable of what marketing says.
And in a few scenarios maybe you can squeak 30FPS out of these cameras - maybe without using IVS or motion detection and just watching a simple feed. But maybe when two users log in, it can't handle it for example. The more features you use, the less likely it will work as one expects.
And if the complaints get bad enough, we have seen firmware updates to popular models that do just that - cut FPS or some other feature to make the camera stable...
In addition, look at all the threads where people came here with a jitter in the video or video dropping signal or IVS missing motion or the SD card doesn't overwrite and they were running 30FPS and when people tell them to drop the FPS and they dropped the FPS to 15FPS the camera became stable and they could actual freeze frame the image to get a clean capture. The goal of these cameras are to capture a perp, not capture smooth motion. When we see the news, are they showing the video or a freeze frame screen shot? Nobody cares if it isn't butter smooth...getting the features to make an ID is the important factor. As always, YMMV...
Further, these types of cameras are not GoPro or Hollywood type cameras that offer slow-mo capabilities and other features. As I said, they "offer" 30FPS and 60FPS to appease the general public that thinks that is what they need, but you will not find many of us here running more than 15 FPS; and movies are shot at 24 FPS, so anything above that is a waste of storage space for what these cameras are used for. If 24 FPS works for the big screen, I think 15 FPS is more than enough for phones and tablets and most monitors LOL. Many of my cameras are running at 12FPS.
In fact, many times if a CPU is maxing out, if it doesn't drop signal, then it will adhere to the FPS but then slow the shutter down to try to not max the CPU, which then produces a smooth blurry image..that is the video my neighbor gets who insists on running 60FPS. He gets smooth walking people but you can't freeze frame it cause every frame is a blur, meanwhile my 12FPS gets the clean freeze frame. Shutter speed is more important the FPS. We both run the same shutter speed by the way, but his camera CPU is maxing out and something gotta give when you push it that hard.
If your unique case requires that type of FPS, you will find surveillance cameras are not going to meet your needs and you need to get a camera capable of that - or spend some serious money.
We have had recently people come here after purchasing cameras in two instances where they were wanting 60FPS - one was a tennis club and another was a youth soccer club. In both cases they found that these types of cameras were not capable of what they were wanting to do. Sure the cameras could run faster FPS, but it still didn't provide them with the level of detail they were looking for. I recall the soccer club had a decent quality PTZ ($800) that is fine for a residential or retail/commercial installation, but to cover the action of the soccer field it wasn't capable of meeting their needs. And because of the extremely fast motion, it was creating a halo type effect around the action (which can be seen in certain lighting conditions). These cameras are good, but not good enough to catch the rotation of a ball for example.
No offense but literally none of what you wrote address what I said(I'm not debating if it is useful or not) The new Wizmind X offers 60fps on their 8mp version but on their 12MP they do not. I understand not offering it at 12MP but why not at 8MP? I've seen this with other Hikvision cameras as well where their lower end model offers 60fps at 1080P but none of the other models on the lineup do.
Actually I think it does, but I provided a lot more narrative for others that find this thread asking about FPS and why many don't run higher FPS, but you can decide whether to agree or not LOL.
Here is what specifically addresses your question amongst the wall of text above LOL - the processors in these things are not that powerful and will overload trying to process 60FPS. They are trying to stay within a certain price point and camera size, so they probably decided that to increase the internals to be able to process 60FPS would be outside of their range (price and size) and isn't the intended purpose of these types of cameras for their intended market.
In addition, putting more MP on a sensor designed for lower MP means it needs a lot more light. For example an 8MP put on the same 1/2.8" sensor as a 2MP means the 8mp needs four times more light to produce the same brightness image as the 2MP. So shove more MP on a sensor/CPU designed for lower MP means something has to give, and FPS is it.
Because of that, most here are not going to buy 12MP in these cameras as they are on sensors designed for 8MP, so adding 4 more MP to that processor is problematic.
We are finding that 4MP on the 1/1.8" sensor is the sweet spot for surveillance cameras. We are seeing serious focus issues (very limited range - at 15 feet focus is good but in front or behind that is soft) with 8MP on the ideal MP/sensor ratio as it is really showing that these cameras are not infinity focus. So many people have actually been dropping back in MP after trying the higher MP cameras. The optics just aren't there yet, so until that is accomplished, chasing more FPS is silly.
Find a 12MP that is on the ideal MP/sensor ratio and you may start to see it, or then again maybe not because Hikvision and Dahua have determined that their intended market (which isn't us homeowners) don't want or need 60FPS.
A member here @Parley bought the 12MP and confirmed it doesn't perform as well as he had hoped and the 8MP on the same size sensor is better at night.
My WizMind X IPC-HFW71242H-Z-X Camera Showed Up Today
FedEx dropped off my WizMind X IPC-HFW71242H-Z-X camera around noon today. I have already started the preparation work for the installation. By the way this is a 12 MP camera based on a 1/1.7" sensor. So, I hooked it up to my LAN using the Dahua config tool. The 12MP does work on the LAN, but I...
If you truly need a camera that can process 60FPS and do it well, open up the checkbook.
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steve1225
Getting comfortable
it is hardware limitation.
The 12mp sensor or SOC (cpu with Image Signal Procesor) is not fast enough to read and process 60 * 12mp = 720MP per seconds of image information.
8mp sensor needs only 8 * 60 = 480MP per second.
1080p is much simpler - you can read and process every second line of pixels (so You don’t need to read half of them)