mat200
IPCT Contributor
- Jan 17, 2017
- 15,099
- 25,503
Hi @gflyer ..
Just sharing what I have seen in the past on "free charging" at stores when the electricity prices jumped in some regions .. "free charging" stations got dropped ..
Gas prices
- Thread starter Smilingreen
- Start date
Hi @gflyer ..
Just sharing what I have seen in the past on "free charging" at stores when the electricity prices jumped in some regions .. "free charging" stations got dropped ..
And that's completely okay. Without the courtesy charge at the park, it would be a $4 trip. Is my $4 home electricity charge for a 180 mile trip not still better than $30 in gas?
OK qflyer, you're dug it that EVs are great. I'm not against them, and think they are very practical and useful for running-around-town driving. For me, a plug-in hybrid is the best solution, and the RAV4 prime was on my short list before buying an ICE Subaru last year. A big part of the decision was not wanting a NMC chemistry battery in my garage. My beef is the government shoving it on people instead of letting market forces work. If the government succeeds with mass adoption my intuition is there will be a huge crisis with the power grid that will take many years and billions of $ to fix. These lefty government people push for their dreams without worrying about the details or unintended consequences. We got a demonstration a week ago with the fed chairman saying 'I think we now understand better how little we understand about inflation,' A top monetary expert admitting he was an idiot and didn't know shit about the consequences of his policies. With the grid, those government experts are now telling us to not worry, that the grid can handle it and/or it will evolve to handle the extra load just fine. Same story, just change out the details.
I don't understand why you think the government is "shoving it on people instead of letting market forces work." That's an anti-green, anti-lefty talking point not based in reality. I'm not a tree hugger nor am I a dem/lefty. Again, if it's about subsidies and tax incentives, we have those in every part of life, from big oil to making babies. Does government shove big oil and children on people, too?
Regarding the grid, it's totally adequate in most places and will be just fine expanding to support additional demand. People can also go solar if the grid is a legitimate concern. I don't understand people living in the 21st century thinking we simply can't figure out how to charge EVs without taking down the grid. We've solved way bigger problems.
looney2ns
IPCT Contributor
Gas here has dropped to $4.67 in most places from a high of $5.37.
In California, requests were made for people to NOT charge their electric cars. At the same time, they are encouraging people to BUY electric cars. Hmmmmmm.
There is also a demand issue outstripping local infrastructure capabilities, as seen here:
Question: When you charge, how much amperage is the circuit, and what is the circuit load and time to go from E to Full? in other words, for your vehicle, how many KWH are added to your normal electric bill, and what is the KWH draw while charging?
mat200
IPCT Contributor
- Jan 17, 2017
- 15,099
- 25,503
Well, the point is once electricity costs everyone more .. stores / parks will no longer be willing to pay that bill.
Thus in that scenario your bill to pay for charging your EV is no longer cheap if you're getting power from a provider. ( that is, it no longer costs you only $4 to charge the car .. )
California has been asking people to reduce electrical use for decades, well before EVs. This isn't an EV-induced problem. They obviously aren't helping, but let's not pretend California's power grid was doing just great before EVs came along.
The Tesla video is from Thanksgiving a few years back, and is definitely not the norm. Most people charge at home.
Mine charges at 6.6 kw. I have it on a 50 amp breaker and my charger supports up to 9.6 kw if I ever get a car that supports that higher rate. The battery is 60 kwh, so a 0-100% charge takes about 9-10 hours, but in reality it only takes me about 10 seconds to plug it in when I get home and another 10 seconds to unplug it when I leave the next day. It's not like I have to stand next to the charger while it charges like one does at a gas pump.
I've averaged 3.6 miles per kwh over the life of the car. Meaning, if I drive 100 miles a day, my utility bill will increase by 28 kwh + the roughly 10% efficiency loss, so call it 31 kwh to drive 100 miles.
Let's say my utility company doubles prices overnight. It's now an $8 trip. That's the equivilant of a 28 MPG car doing the same trip with a gas price of $1.25 a gallon. When's the last time gas was $1.25? I think my electricity has gone up maybe 1 cent in the last decade...You're really having to stretch to make EVs less affordable than gas, and honestly, you're still failing.
I never said or insinuated that California grid problems are EV-induced.
The problem is that government is putting the cart before the horse with this. In California specifically-- they don't have the capacity to replace gasoline with AC current on really meaningful scale, yet they push forward with it anyway. I appreciate the info you have shared, but your individual experience is anecdotal and specific to your area. It can't be reproduced en-masse and applied everywhere.
EDIT: Did your homeowners insurance go up with the increased risk of an extreme fire?
mat200
IPCT Contributor
- Jan 17, 2017
- 15,099
- 25,503
"You're really having to stretch to make EVs less affordable than gas, and honestly, you're still failing"
Actually that was not my goal ..
If I wanted that to be the goal I would add a lot more math to this equation ... as @Arjun noted there are significant up front costs .. as well as infrastructure costs which would need to be addressed.
For me personally, I have not yet put 200k miles on my ICE and do not plan to consider a replacement until I have completed that goal.
Again, how is government doing anything to push EVs or put the cart before the horse? Sure you can get some tax benefits, but as I've said, there's a long long list of things the government incentivizes through taxes, not just EVs. I see car companies building EVs because there's enough demand to justify it. Again, where's the government in that?
My case is anecdotal, just like your California example. The vast majority of the country doesn't deal with grid issues like parts of CA, nor do we pay their high prices. It's one extreme example, whereas mine is a much more typical use case for EVs/the grid.
How are they incentivizing it? They are pushing it under the guise of environmental responsibility, while simultaneously demonizing gas & diesel under that same environmental umbrella. Come on-- you know this.
Right, but the common talking point that every EV is priced over 50K is wrong. There are options that are just as affordable as a comparable ICE car. We're also still very early in the game when it comes to EVs. Prices will fall as production scales up. There are at least two EVs on the market starting around 26K. In other words, the "upfront costs" isn't a thing for all EVs.
I'm also the drive-it-til-the-wheels-fall-off type. You might be surprised at the EV options available by the time you're looking for your next car.
I don't have anything equal to really compare it to, but it's $25/mo more than my 2016 mid-size ICE Chevy with 160,000+ miles. So I'm gonna say it's about the same as any 2020 model valued in the low to mid 20K range would be.
I'll try to help a little.
California Proposal Could Ban Gas-Powered Car Sales After 2035
Province puts in place rules for 100% electric-vehicle sales by 2040
Washington State bans gas cars by 2030 – the earliest in the US
State lawmakers pass bill mandating only electric cars sold by 2035
THE GOVERNMENT OF CANADA’S 2035 ELECTRIC VEHICLE MANDATE IS ABSOLUTELY ATTAINABLE
Biden pushes for electric vehicles to make up half of U.S. auto sales by 2030
Gargoile
Getting comfortable
Wait till you have to pay to replace the batteries out of your own pocket.