Help with an install.

Discussion in 'Camera Installation Questions' started by Uno, Apr 3, 2019.

Share This Page

  1. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,832
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    The typical ADT installer wraps every alarm wire around a piece of romex at least six times and only uses holes through framing that already have romex in them (NEC be damned and cheaper than staples I guess). One of my personal favorite ADT gems at a house a relative bought was a siren installed inside the cold air return. In true ADT fashion, they used screws that were too long and protruded about 1/2" through the drywall into the room opposite the vent. This ADT installer couldn't even handle properly aligning some of the wireless sensors they installed (resulting in false alarms). How hard is it to line up two arrows?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
    looney2ns and fenderman like this.
  2. Jose R.

    Jose R. Getting the hang of it

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2019
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    30
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    This is likely due to the fact that ADT installers don't make as much as the ADT-comissioned door-knocker salesmen. If your alarm company is paying people commission to sell their product, the whole revenue stream is flowing in directions NOT beneficial to the customer.

    It's like "service writers" at car dealerships. Um, why is there a gate-keeper up front that's paid commision on services my car doesn't need? Of course you're gonna get screwed. That useless employee makes $100k! Talk directly to a mechanic, you don't need that salesman in the middle just making things more expensive and less honest.
     
  3. Uno

    Uno n3wb

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2019
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Michigan
    Hey Sorry, been a bit busy but here is the schematic of where I am thinking of placing the cameras. I am planning on using the Dahua IPC-HDW4831EM-ASE cameras with Blue Iris.
     

    Attached Files:

    • 1.pdf
      File size:
      3.2 MB
      Views:
      6
  4. Uno

    Uno n3wb

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2019
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Michigan
    Thanks for all the feedback guys. It has really helped me so far. As far as security system, the owner told me they would like to still go with ADT at their own risk. At this point, I would rather go with their wishes than to try to convince them otherwise (which I have tried multiple times, especially after reading everything about them on these forums). This way, if they are unhappy with ADT, they wont blame me :) I will make sure they don't do a half ass job and will look over their shoulders the entire install.

    As for hiring a security company, this home owner is really not interested in spending more money on this side of things so that is out of the question, too. And yes, you're right, everything that I am doing for them really was an after thought. They called me when most of the house was built and the electricians were almost done wiring.
    Again, I am doing all the AV wiring and now the security cameras, as well. Will be using HTD Lync 12 for whole house audio, smartthings for home automation with actiontiles, smart locks, smart doorbells, smart garage door openers, smart water shutoff valves, smart sprinkler system, automatic shades in the gym, installing all TVs and speakers, and programming. For now, I will leave the integration of the security system alone and hopefully do it later on when there is more information/trials of more experienced people. ADT supplies an app that can remotely control everything and the home owner is fine with that not being on actiontiles.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  5. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,832
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    I suggest reading the wiki and cliff notes. I'd strongly recommend using mostly varifocal cameras. Often 2MP cameras outperform higher res cameras at night.

    I don't really like the camera locations in your diagram, generally they're too high, too wide angle, and tilted down too much. If you post some blueprints and photos without cameras added to them it would be easier to give advice. I'm not likely to go the the trouble of grabbing stills from your video.
     
  6. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,832
    Likes Received:
    2,479
  7. Uno

    Uno n3wb

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2019
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Michigan
    Yea, again, I agree the camera location are a bit high but that seems the most reasonable considering the materials being used on the exterior. There are stones up until the windows, a 12" limestone strip running the perimeter of the house sitting above the top of the windows and brick above that to the roof. I wanted to put them on the brick so they look a bit more aesthetically appealing. I will be spray painting the camera housing to match the brick color.

    where it says "Open Below" on the first floor is a gymnasium. I'll try to get some pictures over the weekend or next week.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  8. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,832
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    Do you have copies of an of the elevation views, especially from the front. I looked at your video again, it looks like that's a temporary scaffold above the garage not the beginnings of some sort of wood awning.
     
  9. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,832
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    For this house, I'd do something like the attached image.
    To be effective some of the cameras really need to be mounted pretty low:
    -Wide light purple in corner by man door to garage and house: no higher than top of door, preferably a bit lower!!!!
    -Cyan by garage, closer to top of garage door
    -Backyard blue by gym, below the level of the terrace <10' off the ground, the other corner of the gym would work too
    -Side yard blue by window wells, slightly below the bottom of the first floor windows!!
    -Back yard red 5-8' above ground level

    EXTERIOR LIGHT FIXTURES COULD IMPACT SOME CAMERA LOCATIONS. LANDSCAPING PLANS ARE ALSO RELEVANT (TREES).

    Run extra cable, pull 2 to every location. For cameras Cat-6 is plenty and less of a pain to terminate on a ladder, scaffold, or lift.

    This is just a rough sketch, but far closer to reality than what you did in jvsg. I did not try to check the vertical tilt angle.
    If you want to identify someone, you should aim for 100 ppf on target NOT 30. By trying to put the cameras high like this, you end up needing more cameras.

    Lower positions on some of the other cameras in my sketch would probably be better.
    upload_2019-4-12_23-54-30.png
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  10. Uno

    Uno n3wb

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2019
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Michigan
    Hey, thanks for the input. Just a couple of questions/thoughts. For the side of the property, you don't think it's better to put the cameras in the center of the building? The corners are blind spots and if the cameras are mounted low, somebody can easily come and move/break them. Also some of the cameras seem redundant. For example, why do you need that light blue in the front looking towards the main entrance if we have one at the door looking out? The owner doesn't want any cameras in the garage (i know...) What camera(s) would you suggest for the different locations? I would prefer using a varifocal lens, as well. I used the 4831 for a quick draw. I was happy with the 2.8mm and 4mm results so just did that quickly. Is there one that has at least that range?
     
  11. awsum140

    awsum140 Known around here

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,283
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    Location:
    Southern NJ
    If you want true security the cameras need to be mounted with overlapping views so that one camera watches another. Turret cameras are fairly vandal resistant simply because of their design and anyone tampering with one camera would be seen by the camera watching the camera. Redundancy helps.
     
  12. Uno

    Uno n3wb

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2019
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Michigan
    I agree and that's why I had the side cameras in the center looking at each other but then the main entrance camera is in a corner, if anyone is going to it, it will capture them so I didn't think I would need redundancy there.
     
  13. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,832
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    Absolutely not. If you're trying to cover the sides from up high, and actually id anyone you need the cameras as far apart as possible to reduce the tilt. Each camera would have a *large* blind spot close to the camera overlapping coverage is necessary.

    On the side with the window wells and door to the garage the house is more vulnerable and I'd want really clear video of anyone poking around over there. I'd strongly consider also putting the light green camera on this side of the house down lower. Is the yard going to be fenced?

    The question is do you just want to see that something happened or do you want to see who did it?
    If none of the cameras are down low by the front door except for an intercom, the cyan camera near the garage would be your best shot of someone on the porch / approaching the font door. To be effective it would need to be lower. This camera covers the blind spot of the much higher green camera in the diagram. If the green camera by the front door were lower, the cyan camera while still low, could have a much wider fov and the orange camera could probably go away.
    I'd strongly encourage a prewire or two inside the garage, in the corner marked and possibly the opposite corner or somewhat centered. In the garage, install junction boxes and wall plates, not lv mud rings.

    You really should watch some more of the video tutorials on using jvsg / read the instructions. You aren't using it fully.

    FYI: cameras are good at attracting spiders and other bugs. The turret style fairs a little better, but's going to be a nightmare keeping cameras on those 2nd floor soffits clean.

    Please put some effort into looking at various information and examples on the forum beyond this thread!
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  14. awsum140

    awsum140 Known around here

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    1,283
    Likes Received:
    1,112
    Location:
    Southern NJ
    The purpose of the front door camera is to get a positive ID of anyone approaching the door. The "end views" are to protect the other opening and, hopefully, provide the identity of any miscreants.
     
  15. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,832
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    That just creates a big blind spot in the middle of the wall.
     
  16. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,832
    Likes Received:
    2,479
  17. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,832
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    Consider a membership to IPVM
    Lots of useful info.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  18. Uno

    Uno n3wb

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2019
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Michigan
    Thank you tangent and everyone else who has helped and given valuable suggestions. So I did order those 2 Dahua turrets from Andy that I thought would work for this install (2.8mm and 4mm). Obviously it would've been ideal to get the varifocal 8MP cameras but that was over budget. I temporarily installed them to take pictures around the property to show the client and he is happy with the picture quality, location, and aesthetics. He acknowledges any blind spots and said this is not the highest priority since he initially wasn't even going to get security cameras installed (because its a very safe neighborhood/city) but I told him its in his best interest to. Anyways, you're welcome to see the pictures here: House Cams - Google Drive I included the placement.pdf in the folder to show where I placed each camera. All the cameras are numbered in that file, as well. In each picture, I placed a license plate in a far away distance so show the picture quality to the client. You can zoom in to see that. The number on the picture name correspond to their location on the PDF with a -2 or -4 for 2.8mm or 4mm, respectively. I also took some pictures in horizontal/vertical plane by turning the camera 90* just to see it but I think I will be going with all horizontal planes except for camera 8.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  19. Uno

    Uno n3wb

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2019
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Michigan
    I pleaded until the very last minute to the home owner to consider another security solution but he was still adamant about staying with ADT. So anyways, the ADT techs are coming out tomorrow to install the system. I will be there the entire time while they work. Do you guys have any pointers on what I should look for in terms of if they're doing everything properly and not cutting corners? Again, this is an ICF construction so it would be difficult to rewire stuff in the future. ImI having everything wired instead of using their wireless sensors.
     
  20. tangent

    tangent IPCT Contributor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,832
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    The main thing is just not to let them do anything too stupid when it comes to routing their wires. You also need to be aware of spaces that are reserved for plumbing, ductwork, or electrical on the blue prints if the other trades aren't already done. If other trades are done, you'll want to make sure they don't damage any of the other trade's work. Beyond that, you may also want to watch out for stupid sensor placement like pointing a motion detector at a fireplace or a smoke detector within a few feet of a return air vent. Plunger and roller ball switches should be avoided there's no reason to use them in new construction. Be thoughtful about placement of keypads and for a house this size install / prewire for at least 3 keypads. I would pull a Cat-5e or Cat-6 to the keypads in addition to whatever they use for future proofing (don't use shielded cable).

    Note: alarm buses can be picky about the wire used / topology of the wiring, the total impedance (resistance, capacitance, and inductance) matters. Meaning the type and length of cable do matter. There are typically some specifications in the manuals and different brands of alarm specify different things.


    Now back to the subject of cameras:
    I came down with a really bad cold on Easter and never got around to responding to your post.
    • You may want to consider this less expensive varifocal camera for some locations: IPC-HDW2231R-ZS Quite a few of your camera locations would benefit from a somewhat narrower field of view.
    • 8MP cams look pretty nice during the day but don't do as well as you might like at night, don't expect to see faces and license plates as well at night.
    • In jvsg, it's helpful to define where walls are then the software will stop showing cameras as if they can see through walls.
    • You'll want to minimize the amount of wall / ceiling that's in frame or ir reflection will really hurt some of the images at night.
    • It wasn't clear in the plans you posted earlier, but it looks like the front porch may be coveredcovered. (looks like you're kneeling on the roof of the covered front porch, but I suppose that could just be temporary scaffold)
      • In that's case I'd really try to put a camera below the roof of the porch, eg. the ceiling of the porch.
      • If they don't want to do it or don't want to pay for it, consider pulling a cable for future use free of charge so it's easier to install a camera when they change their mind in the future. This could apply to other parts of the house as well, think about places where a little future proofing could save you a lot of effort in the future (assuming they turn to you for their future needs).
      • remember the ring video doorbell elite mounts to a junction box and has ethernet. Be sure to RTFM and also pull bell wire for a doorbell chime. If you've decided on the Axis or something else that's fine, I still suggest reading the manual before installation and pulling both Ethernet and bell wire.