Human / Face detection

[35s77]

So I have some of these cameras:

IPC-HDW4831EM-ASE - Dahua Technology

IPC-HDW4831EM-ASE

www.dahuasecurity.com

But can not get the face detection working like it should (or maybe, like I think it should). It will only detect a face if the person is not wearing a hat, is pretty close the to the camera, and stops to look straight at the camera for a few seconds. But if they back up a few feet, nothing. Hat? nothing. Dont fully stop? nothing. I attached screen grab of the settings I am using. I've tried all combinations of the min/max boxes and it dosent make any difference.

I have two of their lower resolution cameras that detect human/vehicle via SMD and those seem to work great. But the 4k cameras do not have SMD. I actually couldnt find any 4k cams that do.

I just want human detection - seems like that would be pretty vanilla for security cams? But I've had my IT (who installed the cameras), the distributor IT people, and me looking at this for....weeks at this point. I dont know if they are not saying...hey this is the best this gets. Is this the best it gets?

We've tried intrusion boxes, trip wires, etc. and no matter what those all have a TON of false alarms on the outdoor cams (they are all outdoor cams) and are not bullet proof either - they miss alot of human motion. Like if a person moves pretty slow for instance it dosent trigger. Or if they only come half way through, it dosent trigger. Sometimes it just misses for no reason.

What am I missing here?

Thanks

 

[Mike A.]

Forget SMD and face detection for your purposes. Have you tried IVS? With that set up right you should have very few false alerts and I don't think that I've ever seen mine miss anyone.

 

[35s77]

Hi Mike, thanks. I sorta figured that, and have asked them several times that exact question.

Yeah I had the IVS set up when we couldnt get the face detection working. I played with it alot and it was working with some false alarms and was getting about 80% of human traffic.

The false alarms mostly coming from shadows tripping wires or intrusion boxes. Shadows move so cant really place them out of the shadows.

Where it wasnt getting humans is if they were moving slow, or if human was 25-30 feet away. Sometimes it just missed someone when it had tripped prior. Most of the misses seem to be on the intrusion boxes so maybe I should stick with just trip wires.

Sorta hard to explain and hard to test. I watched the lawn guys today. There is like 10 guys so it was a pretty good test.

I guess I just need to fine tune the IVS rules and/or lower my expectations.

 

[Mike A.]

Post a capture of how you have the rules set up here and maybe can get things working a little better.

 

[35s77]

Here are two of the cameras. The intrusion boxs are set to cross only.

Most of the humans not triggering were like, along the street. When the lawn guys walked from street into front yard, it wasnt getting them 100% of the time. Some of the false alarms are passing cars that trip that box, even though they dont cross or even touch it.

I'm seeing now some cameras have the ability to track motion after it triggers - but there is no track selection on my settings.

 

[Mike A.]

Tracking only applies to PTZs (and now I think they may have some simulated PTZ tracking for the 180 cams).

Try pulling the intrusion boxes in a little more to give some more space around where they're close to the edges. Also in a little more from the street. Leave Appears checked so in case it misses the cross it still can pick them up after that. Might try taking sensitivity up a step or so.

For the tripwire, try a single zig-zagged line across the area you want to cover instead of the separate rules. Unless you have some reason otherwise, do it so it triggers in both directions.

Under IVS > Global Setup tab, there's also a calibration that you can do that might help pick things up better at distance. Try just pulling it in a little first.

If you're getting falses, double check that regular video detection hasn't switched itself back on and confirm that SMD is off.

 

[CCTVCam]

If you use BI, use trip wires in camera to causer a trigger, then filter the trigger through CPAI in BI for detection to filter the trigger into an alert. Set BI up only to record to alerts not triggers and you're golden. Don't bother with incamera AI. If youw ant to make sure you never miss anything, set up BVR as well and set BI to record Continuos + Alerts (not triggers).

I personally set up recording in camera so that continuos is 4,000lkbs and 1080P and alerts are 16,832 kbs and 4k. That way alerts are very high quality but more to the point, BVR is high enough quality to be usable should an alert miss something.

Looking at the trip wires, you don't have enough. Also be careful of the direction of travel as they only detect movement in 2 directions as indicated by the arows.

I'll try and stick a picture of one oif my trip wire setups after work if Mike doesn't put one up first, but you want multiple wires, the more the better so if one doesn't trip others do.

 

[35s77]

Tracking only applies to PTZs (and now I think they may have some simulated PTZ tracking for the 180 cams).

Try pulling the intrusion boxes in a little more to give some more space around where they're close to the edges. Also in a little more from the street. Leave Appears checked so in case it misses the cross it still can pick them up after that. Might try taking sensitivity up a step or so.

For the tripwire, try a single zig-zagged line across the area you want to cover instead of the separate rules. Unless you have some reason otherwise, do it so it triggers in both directions.

Under IVS > Global Setup tab, there's also a calibration that you can do that might help pick things up better at distance. Try just pulling it in a little first.

If you're getting falses, double check that regular video detection hasn't switched itself back on and confirm that SMD is off.

Thank you! OK I see what you are saying about shrinking the boxes and the single zig zag. I have the regular motion detection off but will run through and make sure it is still off as well as SMD. The issue I was having with leaving "appear" on is that the grass/leaves/trees blowing triggering it.

Would I need the trip wires inside the intrusion boxes if I left appear on? Or do you put trip wire as a fail safe?

 

[35s77]

If you use BI, use trip wires in camera to causer a trigger, then filter the trigger through CPAI in BI for detection to filter the trigger into an alert. Set BI up only to record to alerts not triggers and you're golden. Don't bother with incamera AI. If youw ant to make sure you never miss anything, set up BVR as well and set BI to record Continuos + Alerts (not triggers).

I personally set up recording in camera so that continuos is 4,000lkbs and 1080P and alerts are 16,832 kbs and 4k. That way alerts are very high quality but more to the point, BVR is high enough quality to be usable should an alert miss something.

Looking at the trip wires, you don't have enough. Also be careful of the direction of travel as they only detect movement in 2 directions as indicated by the arows.

I'll try and stick a picture of one oif my trip wire setups after work if Mike doesn't put one up first, but you want multiple wires, the more the better so if one doesn't trip others do.

I dont use Blue Iris but from reading around this forum sounds like I should. I will do some more reading, but sounds like Blue Iris runs on a computer and no need for a NVR? I have two empty slots in my NAS drive as well as a spare computer, so maybe thats what I should do? I'll have to figure out the physical connections is it just connect computer and nas to same network switch the cameras hit? The NVR software and app sorta stink.

 

[wittaj]

At the end of the day, those are budget cams - 8MP thrown on a sensor designed for 2MP and as such all the processing power is lost in that and they couldn't add human AI.

Yes BI runs on a Windows PC and eliminates the need for an NVR.

Get a camera that has human AI and you get a better camera from an image standpoint and one that will be darn near 100%. Most of us don't use face detection and especially at the angles and distance you are trying.

Who uses Dahua AI capable cameras? Reliable AI for triggering events? Pro's/con's?

It has come to my attention that certain Dahua cameras come with built in AI that distinguishes between human & cars. I was unaware of this. Well, always saw the AI word used in the reviews but never really thought about it because I thought it was a Dahua NVR integration only. I am currently...

ipcamtalk.com

https://www.amazon.com/Loryta-IPC-T5442TM-AS-Starlight-Eyeball-Network/dp/B07S47VXGY/ref=sr_1_5?m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&qid=1695481241&s=merchant-items&sr=1-5&th=1

 

[Mike A.]

Ahhh... good catch. I was assuming that it had IVS human/vehicle detection. That would explain the troubles.

 

[35s77]

At the end of the day, those are budget cams - 8MP thrown on a sensor designed for 2MP and as such all the processing power is lost in that and they couldn't add human AI.

Yes BI runs on a Windows PC and eliminates the need for an NVR.

Get a camera that has human AI and you get a better camera from an image standpoint and one that will be darn near 100%. Most of us don't use face detection and especially at the angles and distance you are trying.

Who uses Dahua AI capable cameras? Reliable AI for triggering events? Pro's/con's?

It has come to my attention that certain Dahua cameras come with built in AI that distinguishes between human & cars. I was unaware of this. Well, always saw the AI word used in the reviews but never really thought about it because I thought it was a Dahua NVR integration only. I am currently...

ipcamtalk.com

https://www.amazon.com/Loryta-IPC-T5442TM-AS-Starlight-Eyeball-Network/dp/B07S47VXGY/ref=sr_1_5?m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&qid=1695481241&s=merchant-items&sr=1-5&th=1

OK so if I had better cameras it could differentiate human vs blowing branches on the IVS and virtually end the false alarms. Got any cameras you would recomend? I will read through the thread you linked, i started, see your recomendation for a PTZ. They also sold me a cheapo PTZ that doesnt track on my NVR, maybe I could get it working on blue iris.

My plan is to switch to blue iris, and potentially swap out my cameras if I am still getting a bunch of false alarms after playing with the IVS rules on my current cameras. The company that sold me the cameras and installed them seemed open to swaping out the cameras if need be.

 

[wittaj]

The 5442 series I linked above is the go to. No need to chase MP. Chase sensor and focal length.

https://www.amazon.com/Loryta-IPC-T5442TM-AS-Starlight-Eyeball-Network/dp/B07S47VXGY/ref=sr_1_5?m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&qid=1695481241&s=merchant-items&sr=1-5&th=1&tag=ipctk-20

And then if you want to IDENTIFY, here are the most commonly suggested cameras based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the best overall value in terms of price and performance day and night:

The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection

At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[35s77]

Ah sorry didnt see the link, see it now. I mean, thats about half the price I paid for the cameras I have now. He charged me seperate to install the cams, and to run the cables. I guess I will see if he will take these cameras and NVR and hard drives back and refund me. I guess I need to sit with where they ran the ethernet cables and decide what focal length would be best. I completely understand what you are saying about focal length over MP. But some situations seem to be best suited for a wide angle high resolution cam? I have several spots where a narrow field of view would not get everything. Inside corner of building for example...need 90 degree field of view or two cameras. But its also 50 feet to street. I think what I need for the front of my house, and what I had asked them for to begin with, is three or four wide angle cameras to trigger a PTZ.

 

[wittaj]

WOW - not surprising an "installer" overcharged you for crap cameras that they were probably trying to unload off to an unsuspecting consumer! Hopefully he will take it all back and you buy some real stuff.

Depends on the needs and use - wide angle makes for good overview or to IDENTIFY 10-15 feet away from the camera, but if that isn't the goal of the camera at that location, then it is the wrong camera choice.

 

[35s77]

so is there an 8mp 90+ degree angle of view camera with full AI capability you would recomend?

 

[wittaj]

A good 8MP camera is going to be on the 1/1.2" sensor so you either need enough light or be willing to use the built-in white LED as they do not see infrared.

But these are some great options, but keep in mind it won't IDENTIFY much past 15-20 feet. It will be able to tell it is a human, but no IDENTIFY of the face:

https://www.amazon.com/EmpireTech-Full-Color-Dual-Lens-Splicing-IPC-Color4K-T180/dp/B0BNN9DFFS/ref=sr_1_3?m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&qid=1695569764&s=merchant-items&sr=1-3

https://www.amazon.com/EmpireTech-Full-Color-Syarlight-Turret-IPC-Color4K-T/dp/B0BC18KVF7/ref=sr_1_5?m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&qid=1695569764&s=merchant-items&sr=1-5

https://www.amazon.com/EmpireTech-Full-Color-Weatherproof-Detection-IPC-Color4K-X/dp/B099RBDCCG/ref=sr_1_9?m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&qid=1695569764&s=merchant-items&sr=1-9

 

[35s77]

Great thank you. I have exterior house lighting as well as landscape lighting so I should be good. Some of the reviews report full color view in complete darkness.

So I think I am going to use blue iris and replace my cameras with these:

https://www.amazon.com/EmpireTech-Full-Color-Syarlight-Turret-IPC-Color4K-T/dp/B0BC1BD9SQ/ref=sr_1_5?m=A329YQ83EBQGJF&qid=1695569764&s=merchant-items&sr=1-5&tag=ipctk-20&th=1

I am also thinking of putting the 180 degree cam you linked on the front of the house, paired with a PTZ. I will set the 180 degree camera to trigger the PTZ to track humans. That sounds doable?

The PTZ you recomended in the other thread seems to be not available on amazon, but this one is:

https://www.amazon.com/Loryta-SD49425XB-HNR-Starlight-Network-Tracking/dp/B082XX9LJ6/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=Loryta&qid=1695572496&sr=8-2&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.c3015c4a-46bb-44b9-81a4-dc28e6d374b3#customerReviews

Is that the PTZ you would recomend? I dont mind spending more on a PTZ if I need to.

 

[wittaj]

I have the 49425 as well and it is nice, but you need more light for it than the 49225. If you have enough light it can be great.

 

[35s77]

Sounds like the guy who installed these for me isnt willing to take them back. So I have to decide if I buy all new stuff or look for alternative solution.

Is there such thing as an NVR that could handle all the AI stuff instead of the cameras? Or is that a backwards way of thinking?