Human / Face detection
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I tried dialing in the IVS rules/tripwires, but I dont see a way around 1) shadows during the day and 2) bugs at night. I think I need some sort of human detection.
Sounds like I need to set up blue iris on the computer and get new cameras.
I like the idea of all color cameras I just dont know that I have enough light to make them work. Most of my landscap lights point at the house (and cameras) so humans would mostly be backlit and make situation worse.
How about these cameras. Seem to be a pretty good balance of 4k resolution, low light/IR, and human detection?
Sounds like I need to set up blue iris on the computer and get new cameras.
I like the idea of all color cameras I just dont know that I have enough light to make them work. Most of my landscap lights point at the house (and cameras) so humans would mostly be backlit and make situation worse.
How about these cameras. Seem to be a pretty good balance of 4k resolution, low light/IR, and human detection?
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Folks that have both the 5442 and the 5842 have shown that the 5442 is better at night as it is 4MP on the same sensor size as that 8MP, so the 8MP needs more light.
We know it is hard, but resist the temptation to chase MP. Most here will say 4MP is the sweet spot for these types of cameras. Chase sensor size and focal length for the distance you want to IDENTIFY. My 2MP cameras got my neighbors there stuff back, not their 4K cameras shoved on sensors designed for 2MP!
The best systems don't use all of the same camera - you chose a camera based on the needs and goals. So you have a camera or two as a color overview camera but then use cameras with IR light to pick up the details.
It is good you recognize the issue with backlit situations.
You could use the existing cams you have now as some overview or for tightly defined spaces.
And like I said, with the computer and GPU you have, you could probably use BI AI for these cameras. But with some mods to the IVS rules you could probably still knock out a lot of the false triggers.
And if you are looking into different cameras, then consider the goal for each one and what you want to accomplish. The following thread shows the most commonly recommended cameras based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the best overall value in terms of cost and performance day and night. In many instances 2MP is the right camera.
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We know it is hard, but resist the temptation to chase MP. Most here will say 4MP is the sweet spot for these types of cameras. Chase sensor size and focal length for the distance you want to IDENTIFY. My 2MP cameras got my neighbors there stuff back, not their 4K cameras shoved on sensors designed for 2MP!
The best systems don't use all of the same camera - you chose a camera based on the needs and goals. So you have a camera or two as a color overview camera but then use cameras with IR light to pick up the details.
It is good you recognize the issue with backlit situations.
You could use the existing cams you have now as some overview or for tightly defined spaces.
And like I said, with the computer and GPU you have, you could probably use BI AI for these cameras. But with some mods to the IVS rules you could probably still knock out a lot of the false triggers.
And if you are looking into different cameras, then consider the goal for each one and what you want to accomplish. The following thread shows the most commonly recommended cameras based on distance to IDENTIFY that represent the best overall value in terms of cost and performance day and night. In many instances 2MP is the right camera.
The Importance of Focal Length over MP in camera selection
At the urging of several folks here, I created a thread to show the importance of focal length and how focal length can be more important than megapixels (MP). I mentioned some of this in the post regarding The Hookup’s latest video demonstrating different cameras, including one sold from a...
So I ordered a new PoE switch and I am going to start from scratch.
I am having a hard time choosing cameras. My disconnect with the MP was the night time performance. I honestly overlooked it. All the movement around my house is in the daytime. So all the footage I've been scrutinizing was from the day.
I get the sensor size, pixel concentration of the sensors and shutter speed interact and need to be adjusted to achieve usable nighttime footage.
I dont see an ISO setting, or an aperature setting. Do most IP cameras not let you adjust these?
I drew up a plan and have the focal lengths figured out. I have variables, some 6mm, some 3.6, some 2.8, a 180 degree, and a PTZ.
To make things simpler I think I am only going to order from Andy - except maybe the 180 camera - that wonky frame ratio of the 180 camera seems frustrating.
Seems he has most of these cameras in a IR 4mp 1/1.8" variety and that is what I was initially going to order.
But I noticed the 2.8, 3.6, and 6mm come in an 8mp, color, 1/1.2" version
Generally speaking, and assuming I have enough existing light for the color cams, will these have similar nighttime performance? The biger sensor 8mp color cams vs the smaller sensor 4mp IR cams?
Probably hard to compare an IR camera with a color camera at night. I honestly dont care about the color - just looking for the cleanest image with most detail.
Would you guess I have enough light for the color cams from the attached photos? Those are my crappy cams on default settings - not forced to color.
I am having a hard time choosing cameras. My disconnect with the MP was the night time performance. I honestly overlooked it. All the movement around my house is in the daytime. So all the footage I've been scrutinizing was from the day.
I get the sensor size, pixel concentration of the sensors and shutter speed interact and need to be adjusted to achieve usable nighttime footage.
I dont see an ISO setting, or an aperature setting. Do most IP cameras not let you adjust these?
I drew up a plan and have the focal lengths figured out. I have variables, some 6mm, some 3.6, some 2.8, a 180 degree, and a PTZ.
To make things simpler I think I am only going to order from Andy - except maybe the 180 camera - that wonky frame ratio of the 180 camera seems frustrating.
Seems he has most of these cameras in a IR 4mp 1/1.8" variety and that is what I was initially going to order.
But I noticed the 2.8, 3.6, and 6mm come in an 8mp, color, 1/1.2" version
Generally speaking, and assuming I have enough existing light for the color cams, will these have similar nighttime performance? The biger sensor 8mp color cams vs the smaller sensor 4mp IR cams?
Probably hard to compare an IR camera with a color camera at night. I honestly dont care about the color - just looking for the cleanest image with most detail.
Would you guess I have enough light for the color cams from the attached photos? Those are my crappy cams on default settings - not forced to color.
Attachments
It is so hard to tell because every camera default is so different - a 1/3 shutter versus 1/12 shutter can make a big difference in the perceived light.
But the 8MP on the 1/1.2" sensor also don't need lots of light.
If one has the light and the IDENTIFY region is within the same distance between the two cameras, then yes the 8MP will provide a little bit of edge. But regardless of whether the 2.8 or 3.6mm is 4MP or 8MP, at night, the distance to IDENTIFY will be about the same - the extra MP really doesn't provide additional distance, especially at night.
But keep in mind in those two examples you provided, 8MP will not provide IDENTIFY captures at those distances - they are good for 15-20 feet under ideal conditions. There is a lot of plant growth at the bottom of each image that will mess with exposures.
In terms of getting the most out of the camera, here is my "standard" post that many use as a start for dialing in day and night that helps get the clean captures and help the camera recognize people and cars.
Try this with these existing cameras and I assure you that they will go into B/W as there will not be enough light to keep in color and you will then see that the camera doesn't see as far out as you see on default setting, and then you will better be able to appreciate why we say to focus on focal length and sensor size for the area we want to cover!
Start with:
H264
8192 bitrate
CBR
15FPS
15 iframes
Every field of view is different, but I have found you need contrast to usually be 6-8 higher than the brightness number at night.
We want the ability to freeze frame capture a clean image from the video at night, and that is only done with a shutter of 1/60 or faster. At night, default/auto may be on 1/12s shutter or worse to make the image bright.
In my opinion, shutter (exposure) and gain are the two most important parameters and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies. Match iframes to FPS. 15FPS is all that is usually needed.
Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.
Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-4ms exposure and 0-30 gain (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared or white light.
Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night static image results in Casper blur and ghost during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?
In the daytime, if it is still too bright, then drop the 4ms down to 3ms then 2ms, etc. You have to play with it for your field of view.
Then at night, if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.
You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image. But try not to go above 70 for anything and try to have contrast be at least 7-10 digits higher than brightness.
You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.
But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.
Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.
After every setting adjustment, have someone walk around outside and see if you can freeze-frame to get a clean image. If not, keep changing until you do. Clean motion pictures are what we are after, not a clean static image.
But the 8MP on the 1/1.2" sensor also don't need lots of light.
If one has the light and the IDENTIFY region is within the same distance between the two cameras, then yes the 8MP will provide a little bit of edge. But regardless of whether the 2.8 or 3.6mm is 4MP or 8MP, at night, the distance to IDENTIFY will be about the same - the extra MP really doesn't provide additional distance, especially at night.
But keep in mind in those two examples you provided, 8MP will not provide IDENTIFY captures at those distances - they are good for 15-20 feet under ideal conditions. There is a lot of plant growth at the bottom of each image that will mess with exposures.
In terms of getting the most out of the camera, here is my "standard" post that many use as a start for dialing in day and night that helps get the clean captures and help the camera recognize people and cars.
Try this with these existing cameras and I assure you that they will go into B/W as there will not be enough light to keep in color and you will then see that the camera doesn't see as far out as you see on default setting, and then you will better be able to appreciate why we say to focus on focal length and sensor size for the area we want to cover!
Start with:
H264
8192 bitrate
CBR
15FPS
15 iframes
Every field of view is different, but I have found you need contrast to usually be 6-8 higher than the brightness number at night.
We want the ability to freeze frame capture a clean image from the video at night, and that is only done with a shutter of 1/60 or faster. At night, default/auto may be on 1/12s shutter or worse to make the image bright.
In my opinion, shutter (exposure) and gain are the two most important parameters and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies. Match iframes to FPS. 15FPS is all that is usually needed.
Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.
Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-4ms exposure and 0-30 gain (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared or white light.
Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night static image results in Casper blur and ghost during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?
In the daytime, if it is still too bright, then drop the 4ms down to 3ms then 2ms, etc. You have to play with it for your field of view.
Then at night, if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.
You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image. But try not to go above 70 for anything and try to have contrast be at least 7-10 digits higher than brightness.
You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.
But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.
Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.
After every setting adjustment, have someone walk around outside and see if you can freeze-frame to get a clean image. If not, keep changing until you do. Clean motion pictures are what we are after, not a clean static image.
Got it, I will follow your instructions for dialing in the cameras for sure. OK I will order the 8mp color probably. I am also ordering a PTZ for the front of the house, so the cameras I attached the screen shots of will be overview/spotting for the PTZ. Hopefully the PTZ will be able to get the action while subjects are still facing the PTZ.
Mike A.
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Generally, no, there's no direct ISO adjustment that can be made in these cams. You do have gain adjustment which can be used in a similar way with a similar result of increased noise at higher levels.
Likewise, no direct aperture adjustment. Some cams do have an "iris adjustment" (e.g., 5241E-Z12) but not commonly and in some cases it's not a physical adjustment; rather, a digital simulation. In either case, not an adjustment that's practically used much other than maybe some specific cases. Most of the IR or color cams that you're looking at won't have either.
It is hard to compare color to IR. In terms of only the "cleanest" image alone, then the IR cams probably win. Even though you don't see it, they're blasting the area with relatively strong IR light and, typically, have plenty available and at higher levels than the color cams. And you don't have to have bright visible light on all the time which many don't want. The color cams rely on more sensitive sensors in order to provide the color image and on-cam white lights are kind of weak in comparison to the IR LEDS. So your assumption of enough ambient light is kind of critical. Looking at your images, I'd say that you probably do have enough to get good results. And there's a lot to be said for color. Don't want to downplay that. It's great and it's easy to see the various benefits comparing a B&W vs good color image. But again in terms of "cleantest" sharpest images, I'd have to say the IR cams still win.
Likewise, no direct aperture adjustment. Some cams do have an "iris adjustment" (e.g., 5241E-Z12) but not commonly and in some cases it's not a physical adjustment; rather, a digital simulation. In either case, not an adjustment that's practically used much other than maybe some specific cases. Most of the IR or color cams that you're looking at won't have either.
It is hard to compare color to IR. In terms of only the "cleanest" image alone, then the IR cams probably win. Even though you don't see it, they're blasting the area with relatively strong IR light and, typically, have plenty available and at higher levels than the color cams. And you don't have to have bright visible light on all the time which many don't want. The color cams rely on more sensitive sensors in order to provide the color image and on-cam white lights are kind of weak in comparison to the IR LEDS. So your assumption of enough ambient light is kind of critical. Looking at your images, I'd say that you probably do have enough to get good results. And there's a lot to be said for color. Don't want to downplay that. It's great and it's easy to see the various benefits comparing a B&W vs good color image. But again in terms of "cleantest" sharpest images, I'd have to say the IR cams still win.
cool thank you
So that makes it a little tougher decision for me. I mean, other than color/bw viewing preferance, what are the benefits of color over BW? I mean, to be able to see what color shirt or hat someone was wearing dosent seem very beneficial to me personally. I am probably biased - i've spent the last 20 years shooting BW film. But what are the benefits I am not considering?
Let me give you a few examples of why having some overview cams in color is a good idea.
While color is obviously preferred, sometimes we have field of views that just do not have enough light and need to be in B/W with infrared.
Like many here, I use both to help ensure maximum opportunities to capture a clean image.
While infrared is great, because it is in B/W, sometimes you can get cleaner captures for like a face or something, but color determination is way off, and some colors are problematic with infrared.
So I notice this non-descript plain truck go by late at night so I got suspicious:
So I pull up a color camera to see what is going on and this is the truck:
Now that you know it is a Kroger truck, you can kinda see it in the B/W photo, but wow!
Now imagine if this were someone that had damage done to say a parked car hit by this vehicle and all they had were B/W cameras going, nobody would suspect this Kroger truck!
Here is another example from a perp in my neighborhood.
This perp was good so I didn't get a super clean image, but good enough for the police to ID and recognize him as a repeat offender.
Meanwhile, this was the best image of the same person that any of my neighbors could get from their B/W infrared camera:
This shows the importance of having at least one camera in color even if it produces a blurry image.
Based on the clothing description from the B/W, they probably would have let this person in the color image go as the pants are black and the top is all black too. It must have some black material on it that made it really reflective with IR.
Most would not say this is the same person. Plus the B/W image doesn't even give much detail to the face, but that is because it is a 4K camera shoved on a 1/2.8" sensor that my neighbor was running on default settings.
If at all possible, one should try to run some overview cameras in color - even though they clearly are not for IDENTIFY purposes, they help paint a better picture as to color and some other details that may be lost with infrared and B/W.
While color is obviously preferred, sometimes we have field of views that just do not have enough light and need to be in B/W with infrared.
Like many here, I use both to help ensure maximum opportunities to capture a clean image.
While infrared is great, because it is in B/W, sometimes you can get cleaner captures for like a face or something, but color determination is way off, and some colors are problematic with infrared.
So I notice this non-descript plain truck go by late at night so I got suspicious:
So I pull up a color camera to see what is going on and this is the truck:
Now that you know it is a Kroger truck, you can kinda see it in the B/W photo, but wow!
Now imagine if this were someone that had damage done to say a parked car hit by this vehicle and all they had were B/W cameras going, nobody would suspect this Kroger truck!
Here is another example from a perp in my neighborhood.
This perp was good so I didn't get a super clean image, but good enough for the police to ID and recognize him as a repeat offender.
Meanwhile, this was the best image of the same person that any of my neighbors could get from their B/W infrared camera:
This shows the importance of having at least one camera in color even if it produces a blurry image.
Based on the clothing description from the B/W, they probably would have let this person in the color image go as the pants are black and the top is all black too. It must have some black material on it that made it really reflective with IR.
Most would not say this is the same person. Plus the B/W image doesn't even give much detail to the face, but that is because it is a 4K camera shoved on a 1/2.8" sensor that my neighbor was running on default settings.
If at all possible, one should try to run some overview cameras in color - even though they clearly are not for IDENTIFY purposes, they help paint a better picture as to color and some other details that may be lost with infrared and B/W.
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Mike A.
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Post your deer shot. That's a good one to show the general benefit of color.
On the other hand, you can get some razor-sharp, high-contrast images with IR that I don't think that I've ever seen a night color cam even come close to.
Yeah, I know I'm not making it any easier.
On the other hand, you can get some razor-sharp, high-contrast images with IR that I don't think that I've ever seen a night color cam even come close to.
Yeah, I know I'm not making it any easier.
Yep - I did that back on Post #37 LOL
But here is another example.
Color image of the Jeep. Yeah this is good enough to tell it is a Jeep and a 4 door and color.
But the B/W can be ran at a faster shutter and you can make it details like ISLANDER on the hood, clearly make out the type of wheels, and can even see the tire tread on the spare.
So together it helps paint the picture of what the police should be looking for if this were a perp. And coupled with an LPR plate image, you provide even more detail.
But here is another example.
Color image of the Jeep. Yeah this is good enough to tell it is a Jeep and a 4 door and color.
But the B/W can be ran at a faster shutter and you can make it details like ISLANDER on the hood, clearly make out the type of wheels, and can even see the tire tread on the spare.
So together it helps paint the picture of what the police should be looking for if this were a perp. And coupled with an LPR plate image, you provide even more detail.
OK wow, your kroger truck is not how I remember infrared images looking. The infrared photo's I've taken on actual infrared film distinquish sharply between white clouds and the blue sky. Maybe something with the digital process. Either way, point taken. That guy looks like two different people for sure.
So I think I will keep the front overview/spotting cameras (where I have more light) the 8mp color versions, and the side and rear cameras (where I have less light and will want to shut landscape lighting off after midnight) I will go with the 4mp IR cameras.
The PTZ that is color is super expensive, so I will keep that one IR right? Not worth the expense?
So I think I will keep the front overview/spotting cameras (where I have more light) the 8mp color versions, and the side and rear cameras (where I have less light and will want to shut landscape lighting off after midnight) I will go with the 4mp IR cameras.
The PTZ that is color is super expensive, so I will keep that one IR right? Not worth the expense?
yeah thats awesome, is that regular black and white or IR?
Mike A.
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T5442T-ZE with an external IR illuminator. On-cam IR turned off. Most all of my Dahua cams seem to work best that way. Can't get them as clear if I also turn on the camera IR for whatever reason.
Mike A.
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Not great for direct comparison since the setting is so much different, but this is my best color cam with cam and lighting optimized about as good as I can get it. Very good I think for color at night and I like it a lot better than B&W for capturing wildlife as it's intended, but not as clear as the other I don't think. Even considering the above is 4MB on a 1.8 sensor and this one is 4K on 1.2. But both have their place.
