I need help configuring wireless networks.

[Dave]

I'm new to these forums and somewhat new to installing IP cameras. I recently took on a fairly large job installing 30+ cameras for a local business. I'm having a little bit of a hard time figuring out how to configure my wireless network. The business is a good size and has 5 or 6 houses that need cameras. I'm using foscam hardware and blue iris software. I have also purchased an HP desktop that has good hardware (3.40 ghz i7 and 8gb ram ect.) I have a netgear r7000 router and a netgear ex6200 extender. I'll probably need to get another extender at some point. I feel as though the hardware I purchased is pretty good but I could be wrong. I'm not sure if I should set these routers up as access points, bridges, or repeaters. I also don't know if I should use a static IP address or DHCP. If anybody has any advice on networking or know of any resources that might be helpful I'd greatly appreciate it. I feel as though the hardware I purchased is pretty good but I could be wrong. I'm sure there is some article or resource out there that could answer my questions or at least give me some useful information but I'm having a hard time finding anything. Thanks again

 

[hmjgriffon]

Extenders just re-transmit the wireless signals. All of the devices need static IPs unless you feel like having to track them down all the time. Actually all of the cameras and BI computer should be static IPs. The routers will work as normal, the repeaters will get configured with the SSID they are repeating and any encryption info.

 

[Dave]

The company's networking guy may or may not swing by sometime this week. If he does I'll be sure to post whatever we end up figuring out. I wish I could've been more specific with my question. Somebody would have had to have figured this stuff out at some point. I hope whoever did put it on the interwebs and that somebody on here can send me a link.

 

[fenderman]

Are you installing 30+ wireless cameras? That is just asking for trouble and simply will not work reliably. If you can return the foscams do it now. They are horrible. You need to be using cameras that support power over Ethernet that way you only need to run one cable for power and data. 30 cameras is a lot and will not be supported by a single blue iris machine IF you are using 2-3mp cameras. If you stick with vga cams like some foscams you will be able to handle 30 on a machine. With that many cams you may want to look at using dahua or hikvision cameras with their respective NVR's or software like milestone that can use the in camera motion detection for recording (there is a 50 dollar per camera license fee with milestone). All ip addresses for the camera and nvr must be static.

 

[hmjgriffon]

The company's networking guy may or may not swing by sometime this week. If he does I'll be sure to post whatever we end up figuring out. I wish I could've been more specific with my question. Somebody would have had to have figured this stuff out at some point. I hope whoever did put it on the interwebs and that somebody on here can send me a link.

ehhh it's not really that easy, there is a lot to networking and every situation is different and requires different solutions. Otherwise everyone would be a network engineer and I'd be out of a job. People shouldn't run out and take on huge technical projects thinking they will find some dummy proof step by step guide for dummies with screen shots and hand holding. You're the kind of people who can't understand why I'd want to be paid more than min wage, but then I guess you see now why, it ain't so easy is it?

 

[Dave]

Okay. Thanks. That makes sense about the static IP's. I'll be sure to do that. Is there a difference between an extender and a repeater? When I configured the repeater it game me a second SSID. Should that be the case? So if I use a repeater do I have to forward the same ports as the router?

 

[Razer]

The ONLY success I've had with truly reliable large scale wireless is by using Ubiquiti wireless equipment. Router does not matter as much, but you need really good wireless point to point. Look at the NanoStation M devices, I usually use what I'm linking below. These work great, way better than I think they should for the cost. You'll see a ton of reviews on the equipment of all types they make confirming they make some good wireless stuff.

Hook one up to your router, on the other end connect to a POE switch and connect cameras, it is SUPER easy. I've nver tested range beyond a couple thousand feet, but I know they can do more than I'm asking. For example, I just added 7 3mp Hikvision cameras, and 4 analog cameras all connected to an Axis encoder and shot every one of them back wireless to the main DVR at one of my locations. No issues at all, it just works.

I've tried other solutions and while I can get them to work, reliability was where they usually fell down.

http://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-Nanostation-NSM5-802-11a-Hi-power/dp/B0049AVWAO/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&qid=1402344049&sr=8-18&keywords=ubiquiti

 

[Dave]

That minimum wage business seems like a preconceived notion to me. You're right tho. This stuff is hard. Network engineers should definitely get paid more than minimum wage. I can't imagine a scenario where they do but if thats the case for you I'm really sorry. Maybe I should've looked into this a little more before I got started but I have started and I need to figure it out. Thank you for your sentiments.

 

[Dave]

Are you installing 30+ wireless cameras? That is just asking for trouble and simply will not work reliably. If you can return the foscams do it now. They are horrible. You need to be using cameras that support power over Ethernet that way you only need to run one cable for power and data. 30 cameras is a lot and will not be supported by a single blue iris machine IF you are using 2-3mp cameras. If you stick with vga cams like some foscams you will be able to handle 30 on a machine. With that many cams you may want to look at using dahua or hikvision cameras with their respective NVR's or software like milestone that can use the in camera motion detection for recording (there is a 50 dollar per camera license fee with milestone). All ip addresses for the camera and nvr must be static.

Yes, indeed I am. My partner who is no longer doing the project with me ordered the Foscams. After what you said I wish he hadn't. They're 1.3 MP so maybe my computer can handle it. I'll look into finding some cameras that support power over ethernet. I think I'm stuck with blue iris tho. I don't think this business can afford to pay $50 a camera for software. Blue iris was only $40 to begin with. I'll see about returning some of these foscams after I look into this a little more.

 

[Dave]

The ONLY success I've had with truly reliable large scale wireless is by using Ubiquiti wireless equipment. Router does not matter as much, but you need really good wireless point to point. Look at the NanoStation M devices, I usually use what I'm linking below. These work great, way better than I think they should for the cost. You'll see a ton of reviews on the equipment of all types they make confirming they make some good wireless stuff.

Hook one up to your router, on the other end connect to a POE switch and connect cameras, it is SUPER easy. I've nver tested range beyond a couple thousand feet, but I know they can do more than I'm asking. For example, I just added 7 3mp Hikvision cameras, and 4 analog cameras all connected to an Axis encoder and shot every one of them back wireless to the main DVR at one of my locations. No issues at all, it just works.

I've tried other solutions and while I can get them to work, reliability was where they usually fell down.

http://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-Nanostation-NSM5-802-11a-Hi-power/dp/B0049AVWAO/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&qid=1402344049&sr=8-18&keywords=ubiquiti

I'll be sure to check that out. Thanks for the input

 

[Dave]

So it seems like the general consensus is that this system won't work and if it does it won't be reliable. Thanks for all the help. I needed a little perspective. I'm not saying that I was right in the first place but I would love to prove you guys wrong. I'll be sure to let everybody know how everything goes. Meanwhile, if anybody has anymore input I'd love to hear it. My knowledge on this type of stuff is going to increase exponentially as this project goes on and at some point I'd like to help other people but its a long road ahead.

 

[fenderman]

We all make mistakes when we first start out. Just be patient and willing to learn. Razr made some good points about the ubiquiti stuff and maybe you will be able to get it to work that way. Here is the deal, regardless of what the business can afford, if you install a product that will not work reliably, it wont be good for you or them. What is the layout of the area, what are you trying to cover?
My suggestion is to at least run Ethernet cable to as many cameras as you can. Maybe you can sell some of the foscams and use the proceeds for some hikvision or dahua. You can order both with 2.8mm lenses so you can cover more area possible reducing the number of overall cameras.

 

[bp2008]

Hikvision DS-2CD2032-I if ordered from China is really very cheap for a 3MP camera. The seller "CCTV CAMERA CHINA" which I believe is well regarded by some forum users is selling them for $89 USD each with free shipping right now. That is the lowest I've seen them get. Just the other day they were $95 each.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2013-Hikvision-Original-infrared-gun-waterproof-network-camera-DS-2CD2032-I-3MP-IR-ip-camera-support/1397052584.html

Probably costs less per camera than your Foscams did.

Anyway I don't know the layout of your install locations obviously, but here is some general advice: Run ethernet to everything you can. If you can help it, don't buy cables that use Copper Clad Aluminum (CCA) as these are reduced performance and may lead to issues. Solid copper is what you want. Use gigabit switches everywhere except the PoE switches which can be 10/100 speed. Make sure if you buy a switch with more than 8 PoE ports that it has at least one gigabit (1000 Mbps) port and use that port to connect the switch to another gigabit-capable switch. This is because all the data from all the cameras on the switch has to go out that one port.

Ubiquiti wireless radios will do a great job bridging large gaps that are too far or too expensive to run an ethernet cable (i.e. between buildings). I recommend Nanostation Loco M5. When aimed and configured properly, a pair of these will transfer data at up to 100 Mbps for hundreds of feet at lowest transmit power, and up to several miles though you might start losing speed.

 

[Dave]

The layout is basically a square city block. 8 buildings total. 10 outdoor cameras positioned on telephone poles (with permission from the city) and 20 indoor cameras. I could possibly do PoE for the main building which has about 8 cameras. I might be able to get 2 of the outdoor cameras on the ethernet as well. That should help. My computer is pretty nice (3.40 ghz i7 quad core and 8 GB of ram) and BI is the only thing that will be running on it. I might be able to return the outdoor foscams and some of the indoor cams as well. The hikvision cameras are about the same price so I should be able to swing that. I got a lot of research to do but you guys have given me some stuff to work with. Setting up the BI mobile app will be a nightmare of its own but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

 

[bp2008]

Hikvision also makes some 3 megapixel indoor cameras that are smaller. http://www.hikvision.com/en/products_show.asp?id=9441 is my personal favorite for indoors.

I imagine you don't have the relative massive budget it would take, but fiber optics would be an excellent way to link the buildings. Otherwise you could do this with Ubiquiti AirMax radios like many wireless internet providers use (don't worry, they are not expensive). A Rocket m5 with an omnidirectional antenna in a central location with direct line of sight to the other locations would be ideal. The Rocket M5 would be configured as an "access point" and each camera or group of cameras would use a Nanostation Loco M5 (configured as "station") to link back to the access point. You need a clear line of sight for every link though, not even passing through any trees. So you'd probably end up with more than one access point due to obstructions making a single access point impossible. With such short distances you would probably reduce the output power on most of the radios to minimum.

 

[fenderman]

bp2008, great point about CCA cable. Dave you will not be able to run 30 cameras at 2 or 3mp on that system if you are using blue iris. Maybe with lots of tweaking and direct to disk, you can get all to run at 1mp each if they dont all record at the same time.

 

[Dave]

I'll be sure to watch out for CCA cables. I'm afraid that fiber optics is out of the budget on this one. For this job, I probably don't need 3 mp. All the bossman needs is to keep an eye on his employees punching in and out and make sure they're not lounging around too much so 1.3 should work. I should be able to lower the framerate on cameras that are a lower priority and I'm going to set them to record only when there is motion so that should help as well. Direct to disc is something I'm going to look into. Like you said "lots of tweaking." I have all the cameras so maybe I can unbox them and connect them to BI and give it a test run to make sure the BI can handle it. Good or bad idea? Seems like ubiquiti is the way to go and I'll probably end up having to get something from them before the job is over but I'm stuck with the Netgear stuff. The router (R7000) and extender (EX6200) I have are both top of the line and have dual core processors. My partner (no longer on the project) was thinking that high gain antennas would be a good solution for cameras that might be a little out of range. Seems pretty cost effective to me I just don't know if they're any good.

 

[Dave]

If I were running 30 cameras on a machine with BI where would the bottleneck be? I'm thinking the network can handle the data and the computer should be able to process it because it is a dedicated machine with good hardware. Would the BI software be the problem or is it hardware?

 

[bp2008]

Well since you have 1.3 MP foscams that means they can do h264 which will be essential if trying to do this with wireless. You'd need all the efficiency you can get. 1 Mbps streams might not be out of the question.

Beware that typical range extenders, which retransmit a wireless signal at the same frequency it was received on, will cut your speed in half. When the airtime is already being fought over by a bunch of wireless cameras, you will be lucky to get good performance, especially if anyone else is using the same frequencies nearby. Ubiquiti gear gets away with so many wireless clients because it has a proprietary protocol they call AirMax which organizes time slots for each radio to send data and that way the data collisions are kept to a minimum and airtime is used much more efficiently.

High gain antennas and directional antennas can certainly help, because a low signal means more retransmitting is required. Make sure you don't overspend on antennas though because if you upgrade to $67 Ubiquiti radios you won't have any use for the antennas anymore.

 

[bp2008]

A 3.4ghz (i.e. recent) i7 and 8 GB ram should be just fine for BI. You may find you can only get away with 10 or 15 FPS running all these cameras. Try to keep your constant CPU load low - like 50% or less is best, though you can probably get away with 60-70%. Remote viewing and recording will make CPU usage rise, and you don't want it to hit 100% for long because that will mean dropped frames, corrupted recordings, software crashes, and/or other fun things. Run Blue Iris in service mode so you don't have to keep the user interface application open all the time, and this will save a significant amount of CPU time.

Make sure you set the frame rate on the camera because if you only set it in Blue Iris then you will waste CPU time and the image quality won't be as good. Also use Direct to Disc recording mode on all the cameras and make sure the recordings are usable -- some cameras don't produce particularly good h264 and it can be apparent with recordings created via Direct to Disc.