Im a Neophyte and my head is spinning

Im sorry gentlemen, I have to step away or these kids are going to kill me. I promised id swim with them.

I appreciate all the help, and it was very helpful indeed. Ill get an Empire tech and see how it goes. I'm guessing it should work just fine. But well see. I will definitely be back.

Thanks again. You guys are awesome.
 
  • Like
Reactions: samplenhold
jamiesaun85 said:
No kidding? With all of the movie ripping and encoding I do, I have found h265 to be awesome. Having said that, I will have to defer to experience here, cameras are most likely different than my computers when it come to processing power and whatnot. So, if it does both, Ill try both and see? If it only does 264, no biggie. I do have about 30 terabytes of storage, so im not worried about the size at all. I was thinking more network saturation. My Lan runs on 2.5Gb. But the Wan is only 1Gigabit, and that's cable gigabit. So up load to the WAN is only 50 megabits. That's it. But, if that's not enough for live footage to my phone over the WAN, it doesnt really matter because i cant do anything about it anyway.
Click to expand...

You will find these cameras and capabilities very different than what you are used to.

H264 is the standard codec that universally works with these systems.

H265 well every manufacturer has their own tweak and coding in it and then funky things happen.

We get threads here all the time where their video isn't being seen by their VMS or the bottom of the image is green or it flashes green or some other weird thing. They change to H264 and the problems go away.

We haven't told you yet that these better cameras still work best with Internet Explorer....yeah we know, but it is still available and native to Windows.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jamiesaun85
oooohhhh. Hmm. Internet explorer huh? Man, I haven't used that in a long time. Guess if I have to, then I have to. Ive heard its gotten a lot better. Or maybe it was Edge thats better, cant remember now.

Anyway, its a done deal. Thank you for the help gentlemen, I will be sure to let you know how it goes. Should have an update by Wednesday.

In the meantime, lots of studying to do. Such is life.

Thanks
 
  • Like
Reactions: samplenhold
Okay guys, Its worse than i thought. Getting the thing up and running was no fun at all. It is not compatible with the nas, And Asustor's surveillance software is so bad, It barely works with onvif. I had a feeling that would be the case.

Great camera by the way.

So, time for plan B. I figured Blue Iris was an Operating System, But it looks like its actually an app. I already have a computer that doesnt get used much with ample storage. So that sounds way cheaper than buying an NVR. I'm guessing its extremely complicated right? Just logging into that camera is bad enough, way too many settings. Doesn't an NVR simplify the process or not really?
 
With the better cameras, whether you use an NVR or BI, you have to do the same configurations in the camera itself.

People wrongfully assume NVRs and are plug-n-play. They are not.

Unless someone is a fool and runs the cameras and NVR on default settings (which will result in crappy captures at night that are blurs and look like consumer grade crap), by the time you dial cameras in for ability to freeze frame, the effort to set up and NVR or BI for alerts and stuff can be comparable.

A BI/PC combo is always less expensive than an NVR. Sure there are NVRs cheaper, but they are limited. Not all NVRs are created equal. Sure you can buy a cheaper NVR but it is limited to 40Mbps, which depending on how someone sets up the cameras, could mean that an 8 channel NVR can only run 4 cameras.

BI allows you to demo the software, so simply load it up on a Windows computer and see what you think.

I can actually set BI up faster than an NVR with a lot more capability than an NVR. But then again the default settings for BI are actually decent and a good starting point for most.

Turn off Windows and BI auto updates and have the computer autostart on a shutdown and run BI as a service and you have a more powerful NVR that is still more secure than an NVR that rarely gets updates.

Since the BI computer is being used as a stand-alone device, the device isn't out surfing the Internet so the value of the critical updates are not as critical.

Plus the computer will have virus protection software on it that an NVR doesn't.

BI allows for anonymous update of performance data. People have had it running nonstop for over 2165 days, or almost 6 years... And I suspect that the last time it rebooted was when they manually did it...I was an NVR user before I made the switch and I never had an NVR last 5 years LOL
 
  • Like
Reactions: mat200 and jamiesaun85
wittaj said:
With the better cameras, whether you use an NVR or BI, you have to do the same configurations in the camera itself.

People wrongfully assume NVRs and are plug-n-play. They are not.

Unless someone is a fool and runs the cameras and NVR on default settings (which will result in crappy captures at night that are blurs and look like consumer grade crap), by the time you dial cameras in for ability to freeze frame, the effort to set up and NVR or BI for alerts and stuff can be comparable.

A BI/PC combo is always less expensive than an NVR. Sure there are NVRs cheaper, but they are limited. Not all NVRs are created equal. Sure you can buy a cheaper NVR but it is limited to 40Mbps, which depending on how someone sets up the cameras, could mean that an 8 channel NVR can only run 4 cameras.

BI allows you to demo the software, so simply load it up on a Windows computer and see what you think.

I can actually set BI up faster than an NVR with a lot more capability than an NVR. But then again the default settings for BI are actually decent and a good starting point for most.

Turn off Windows and BI auto updates and have the computer autostart on a shutdown and run BI as a service and you have a more powerful NVR that is still more secure than an NVR that rarely gets updates.

Since the BI computer is being used as a stand-alone device, the device isn't out surfing the Internet so the value of the critical updates are not as critical.

Plus the computer will have virus protection software on it that an NVR doesn't.

BI allows for anonymous update of performance data. People have had it running nonstop for over 2165 days, or almost 6 years... And I suspect that the last time it rebooted was when they manually did it...I was an NVR user before I made the switch and I never had an NVR last 5 years LOL
Click to expand...
Will an i7 3770k be enough? In 2013 They didn't have the 264 encoding/decoding chops that they have now. There's also 2 video cards in it, in sli, remeber when that was a thing? But highly doubt they'll be of any use in regard. Can the thing record direct to storage or whatever its called?
 
That would be on the low end, but give it a try.

Follow all the optimizations and you stand a decent chance. And if doesn't work out, for about a $100 you can get an 8th gen on ebay. Still cheaper than an NVR.

Optimizing Blue Iris's CPU Usage

Blue Iris uses a lot of CPU time. In most Blue Iris installations, your CPU is the limiting factor which determines how many cameras you can have. As such, it is extremely important to optimize your configuration to ensure you can get the most out of your system while consuming the least...
ipcamtalk.com ipcamtalk.com
 
  • Like
Reactions: mat200 and jamiesaun85
I don't know brother, It seems to be running very well currently. With 3 more we might have problems or some thing, I guess we'll have to see. The zoom isn't working and the picture needs a little adjustment, minor details to work out later. Right now im just running it at 15 fps, full resolution, 2 streams and evaluating the storage after several hours.20240824_140332.jpg20240824_140337.jpg But so far I'm very optimistic. Great software.
 
Still havent seen over 4% yet. And theres 32 gigs of memory, Im not worried about that either. Pretty incredible software. IM sold already
 
That is awesome the CPU is so low. I know a 4th gen would be no issue, but the 3rd gen is always the questionable one.

Glad to see you have seen how powerful BI is after a short time.

I was a long time NVR user and within 30minutes of trying BI I was sold on how much better it was.
 
wittaj said:
That is awesome the CPU is so low. I know a 4th gen would be no issue, but the 3rd gen is always the questionable one.

Glad to see you have seen how powerful BI is after a short time.

I was a long time NVR user and within 30minutes of trying BI I was sold on how much better it was.
Click to expand...
Yes sir, I can see why. Pretty incredible stuff.

So it turns out the only hardware i need is more cameras. That is awesome. I'm just kind of thinking 2 or 3 more of these cameras. They're a little spendy, but I was getting some excellent footage from them. Especially at night, and haven't optimized anything except the bitrate. I just kinda let the camera do the rest and it did a shockingly good job. Course, I'm sure you already know, since you recommended them and all.
 
Keep in mind that with the camera on auto/default settings at night, it gives a false sense of security because you are looking at a static image that is nice and bright.

That was accomplished with a slow shutter. Don't be fooled by watching video of you or someone you know walking by and saying "I can tell that is me" LOL.

You need the ability to freeze frame and get a clean image. That is done with either a ton of light, but most likely faster shutters.

In terms of getting the most out of the camera, here is my "standard" post that many use as a start for dialing in day and night that helps get the clean captures and help the camera recognize people and cars.

Start with:

H264
8192 bitrate
CBR
15FPS
15 iframes

Every field of view is different, but I have found you need contrast to usually be 6-8 higher than the brightness number at night.

We want the ability to freeze frame capture a clean image from the video at night, and that is only done with a shutter of 1/60 or faster. At night, default/auto may be on 1/12s shutter or worse to make the image bright.

In my opinion, shutter (exposure) and gain are the two most important parameters and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies. Match iframes to FPS. 15FPS is all that is usually needed.

Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.

Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-4ms exposure and 0-30 gain (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared or white light.

Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night static image results in Casper blur and ghost during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?

In the daytime, if it is still too bright, then drop the 4ms down to 3ms then 2ms, etc. You have to play with it for your field of view.

Then at night, if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.

You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image. But try not to go above 70 for anything and try to have contrast be at least 7-10 digits higher than brightness.

You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.

But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.

Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.

After every setting adjustment, have someone walk around outside and see if you can freeze-frame to get a clean image. If not, keep changing until you do. Clean motion pictures are what we are after, not a clean static image.
 
wittaj said:
Keep in mind that with the camera on auto/default settings at night, it gives a false sense of security because you are looking at a static image that is nice and bright.

That was accomplished with a slow shutter. Don't be fooled by watching video of you or someone you know walking by and saying "I can tell that is me" LOL.

You need the ability to freeze frame and get a clean image. That is done with either a ton of light, but most likely faster shutters.

In terms of getting the most out of the camera, here is my "standard" post that many use as a start for dialing in day and night that helps get the clean captures and help the camera recognize people and cars.

Start with:

H264
8192 bitrate
CBR
15FPS
15 iframes

Every field of view is different, but I have found you need contrast to usually be 6-8 higher than the brightness number at night.

We want the ability to freeze frame capture a clean image from the video at night, and that is only done with a shutter of 1/60 or faster. At night, default/auto may be on 1/12s shutter or worse to make the image bright.

In my opinion, shutter (exposure) and gain are the two most important parameters and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies. Match iframes to FPS. 15FPS is all that is usually needed.

Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.

Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-4ms exposure and 0-30 gain (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared or white light.

Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night static image results in Casper blur and ghost during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?

In the daytime, if it is still too bright, then drop the 4ms down to 3ms then 2ms, etc. You have to play with it for your field of view.

Then at night, if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.

You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image. But try not to go above 70 for anything and try to have contrast be at least 7-10 digits higher than brightness.

You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.

But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.

Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.

After every setting adjustment, have someone walk around outside and see if you can freeze-frame to get a clean image. If not, keep changing until you do. Clean motion pictures are what we are after, not a clean static image.
Click to expand...
Alright, I just printed that.

For the a.i stuff, Can i do all of that inside of Blue Iris? I really dont like the layout of the software built into the camera. Settings are scattered everywhere.
 
Using BI AI is where you will see the limitation of that computer!

Unless you have special use cases, you may find the camera AI to be better.

You may find that the camera AI has got so good that doing CodeProject is kinda overkill and adds more complexity, time delay, and potential for issues.

Whether to use camera AI or BI AI is obviously up to you, but of course, the AI in the camera may be more than sufficient for your needs without needing BI AI. Do you need the orange box around every object? Do you want to identify animals or logos? Or is just human or vehicle sufficient.

The camera AI is useful to many people, but BI has way more motion setting granularity than the cameras, and some people need that additional detail, especially if wanting AI for more than a car or person. For folks that want AI and alerts on animals or specifically a UPS truck then they need the additional AI.

There isn't really a best practice because every field of view is different and use case and needs are different.

To many here, BI motion without AI is more than adequate for what they do.

To many here, camera AI is more than adequate for what they do.

To many here, using the BI AI adds additional functionality that the above alone can not do.

It comes down to testing with each field of view and which one gives you the most consistent results.


While some of that third party stuff is cool like tagging was it a dog or a bear, I don't need all that fancy stuff. If my camera triggers BI to tag an alert for human or vehicle and BI can accomplish what I need by way of a text or email or push or whatever, that is sufficient for my needs. I just want to be alerted if a person or vehicle is on my property and the camera AI does a fine job with that.

However, I do run BI AI on a few cameras so that it knocks out headlight shine so that the alert image includes the vehicle. The camera AI will trigger for a car, but the alert image was always just the headlights. I also run the ANPR AI module.

The true test....I have found the AI of the cameras to work even in a freakin blizzard....imagine how much the CPU/GPU would be maxing out sending all the snow pictures for analysis to CodeProject LOL. My non-AI cams in BI were triggering all night. This picture was ran through AI (without the IVS or red lines on it) and it failed to recognize a person in the picture, but the camera AI did. This pic says it all and the video had the red box over it even in complete white out on the screen:

1679354257954.png




See this thread on how using just Dahua AI may be sufficient for your needs:

Who uses Dahua AI capable cameras? Reliable AI for triggering events? Pro's/con's?
 
LOL! I didn't even see a guy there at first. I'm like, What guy? Sure enough, there actually is a guy there.

I didn't even think about that. I figured Blue iris A.I was the camera A.I. I hadn't considered that BI has its own additional A.I. That's just too much A.I.! Makes me dizzy already. I will definitely start with The cameras built in stuff. And no, my A.I needs are quite minimal I would guess. Just trigger and highlight someone coming in my yard. Set up a threshold of some kind so i don't get pestered by leaves and crap like that, so annoying.

Very knowledgeable and helpful man you have been. Thank you for all the help. Same to all you other guys, your life savers.
 
Here is the Cliff Notes version LOL:

Go into the camera and set up smart plan with IVS, then go to the IVS screen and draw IVS rules (tripwire or intrusion box) and then select the AI you want it to trigger on (human or vehicle).

Then in BI, there are a few places you need to set this up in BI (assuming you already set up the IVS rules in the camera GUI):

In Camera configure setting check the box "Get ONVIF triggers".

Hit Find/Inspect on the camera setting to pull the coding for the triggers.

Go into Motion Setting and select the "Cameras digital input" or "ONVIF" box (something other than the BI Motion box as the naming has changed based on the version you are on).

On the Alerts tab uncheck the Motions Zones tab (those are alerting you to any BI motion in those areas in Zones A thru H)

On the alerts tab set up how to be notified.
 
Yes, but best practice when adding a camera is to type in the IP address, username, password and then the Find/Inspect button and let BI find the correct protocol.

In many instances it will be Generic for the model and RTSP for model

1724542279095.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: jamiesaun85
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom