Ivs vs SMD and the length of detection

Cctvrole

n3wb
Joined
Aug 16, 2021
Messages
15
Reaction score
3
Location
Uk
Hi there

Thinking about using a 5 series dahua cameras for my companys outdoor area that needs to be protected. Can't decide what analytics I should go for. Should I go for the ivs human detection or smd?

The important part is that I want as little false alarm as possible.

And with the diffent lenses were can I find more information regarding how long the human detection is for each lens on dahua 5 series for example

Or if you have any other advices I would appreciate it

Thanks
 

sebastiantombs

Known around here
Joined
Dec 28, 2019
Messages
11,511
Reaction score
27,690
Location
New Jersey
SMD tends to load the CPU in the camera pretty heavily and they aren't very high horsepower CPUs to begin with. There is a new version of SMD coming out, soon, for the 5442 series but the early versions still seem to have the same problems. IVS won't load the CPU in the camera significantly and seems pretty stable. None of it is false trigger free. The closest I've gotten is using Blue Iris with DeepStack AI. Even with that a false will happen maybe a total of 10 times a day combined on the 10 cameras I have enabled with DeepStack.

Here's a comparison chart of lens sizes versus field of view. Be aware that this will vary from the chart depending on sensor size -

lens sizes.JPG

Here's a chart for distance of recognition. Keep in mind this assumes the camera is mounted no higher than two meters and the subject is facing the camera. The identify distance is the critical one if you need proof for law enforcement/legal proceedings -

dori.png
 

ArnonZ

Pulling my weight
Joined
Feb 11, 2020
Messages
212
Reaction score
128
Location
here
I still don't know why the two ways uses different methods for human detection.
I can tell you that the first one: IVS is working perfect for me and the other one: SMD is really poor.

I'm triggering alarm day and night X8 cams 24/7 over a year and the only time when I had problems with it, I was using a new FW that was bad (returned to the previous one)
I DO NOT use the SMD to trigger alarm as it's got lots of false positives and lots of false negatives.
I only monitor the SMD alerts but when I check them I'd always find my dog and cat.

For me, the IVS works perfect and even ready to trigger noisy siren in the nights (no false positive and do not miss a thing) while the SMD is good for nothing.
The two ways trigger human differently. One is simply PERFECT (in my case) and the other one is VERY bad.
 

Cctvrole

n3wb
Joined
Aug 16, 2021
Messages
15
Reaction score
3
Location
Uk
SMD tends to load the CPU in the camera pretty heavily and they aren't very high horsepower CPUs to begin with. There is a new version of SMD coming out, soon, for the 5442 series but the early versions still seem to have the same problems. IVS won't load the CPU in the camera significantly and seems pretty stable. None of it is false trigger free. The closest I've gotten is using Blue Iris with DeepStack AI. Even with that a false will happen maybe a total of 10 times a day combined on the 10 cameras I have enabled with DeepStack.

Here's a comparison chart of lens sizes versus field of view. Be aware that this will vary from the chart depending on sensor size -

View attachment 98608

Here's a chart for distance of recognition. Keep in mind this assumes the camera is mounted no higher than two meters and the subject is facing the camera. The identify distance is the critical one if you need proof for law enforcement/legal proceedings -

View attachment 98609
Thanks for taking your time and answering.

I think I will go for the IVS. It will be installed at a distance of 2-4 M up. Depending on we're I will install it, haven't decided yet.

Do you know any website we're i can see all that information regarding the detection of each dahua camera?

Thanks again
 

Cctvrole

n3wb
Joined
Aug 16, 2021
Messages
15
Reaction score
3
Location
Uk
I still don't know why the two ways uses different methods for human detection.
I can tell you that the first one: IVS is working perfect for me and the other one: SMD is really poor.

I'm triggering alarm day and night X8 cams 24/7 over a year and the only time when I had problems with it, I was using a new FW that was bad (returned to the previous one)
I DO NOT use the SMD to trigger alarm as it's got lots of false positives and lots of false negatives.
I only monitor the SMD alerts but when I check them I'd always find my dog and cat.

For me, the IVS works perfect and even ready to trigger noisy siren in the nights (no false positive and do not miss a thing) while the SMD is good for nothing.
The two ways trigger human differently. One is simply PERFECT (in my case) and the other one is VERY bad.
Thanks for taking your time answering.

Exactly I'm scared that the siren will go off all the time. But I will go with IVS I think after your explanation I think I'm 100 on that part

Thanks again
 

Cctvrole

n3wb
Joined
Aug 16, 2021
Messages
15
Reaction score
3
Location
Uk
My biggest concern is when I draw the line for ivs that it doesn't recognize if someone is that in area if it's to far. Can't find anything on dahua how long each detection is for each camera for example
 

sebastiantombs

Known around here
Joined
Dec 28, 2019
Messages
11,511
Reaction score
27,690
Location
New Jersey
I can't comment on how long the detection time of IVS is, @EMPIRETECANDY . Most here use IVS with Blue Iris and Blue Iris allows setting a pre-trigger time, start recording before the trigger by a few seconds, and a post trigger time, keep recording for a few seconds after the trigger ends. I'd also suggest using an intrusion box, with the box smaller than the overall field of view to give the camera time to see the intrusion into, or out of, the box.
 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,428
Reaction score
47,549
Location
USA
It comes down to your settings and field of view. If you run it all on auto/default settings, it will struggle at night.

But many of us have found it to be very reliable, look at my posts in this thread about a blizzard and another detecting someone on the other side of the street.

 

Cctvrole

n3wb
Joined
Aug 16, 2021
Messages
15
Reaction score
3
Location
Uk
It comes down to your settings and field of view. If you run it all on auto/default settings, it will struggle at night.

But many of us have found it to be very reliable, look at my posts in this thread about a blizzard and another detecting someone on the other side of the street.

Thanks for the answer.

I'm just curious for example I have set up a few cameras around our and my family's shops. But usually of course when you install the cameras it's day time. If I want to go to every singel camera and check them at night it will take alot of time, and of course it's the best way to change the settings to configure so the cameras work perfectly at night. But if I don't have that possibility and I want it to work ok at night what settings do you recommend changing? I'm thinking of the installers that install cameras for their customers they can't be coming to the customers at night so what do they change?

Thanks again
 

sebastiantombs

Known around here
Joined
Dec 28, 2019
Messages
11,511
Reaction score
27,690
Location
New Jersey
That's similar to asking how long a piece of rope is, no definitive answer. Installers usually leave tings all on "auto" which results in nice still shots and blurred motion.

There are too many variables involved for any general settings to work properly. Auto settings won't work well, usually, because of those same variables. It comes down to how much light is available, either visible or infrared, shutter speed (exposure), gain, exposure compensation, brightness, contrast and so on. I have a few cameras around my house. There is no "magic" combination of settings that works for all of them. Each is set differently depending on view and available light.

If you have internet at the locations, you can use a VPN and sign into the local network at those locations from anywhere. A VPN will provides access to the network just as if you were directly connected, minus a little delay for the roundtrip of data of course. That would let you adjust things remotely as well as be able to watch things remotely. This is not the kind of VPN used to surf anonymously. It provides a link from your remote device, computer or phone, to your own network, not the other way around. Most Asus and some Netgear routers have a VPN already built in that simply needs to be activated to use.

VPN Primer
 

wittaj

IPCT Contributor
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
24,428
Reaction score
47,549
Location
USA
^+1 this!!!

The folks I know that paid a "professional" really only got the cables ran, NVR plugged in, and cameras screwed into the house. Everything was on default settings.

You do enough of these cameras, and you start to get a feel for what settings you would adjust based on knowing and seeing the field of view, but no two cameras will have the same settings.

Identical cameras, one of the front of my house and the other on the back, are two completely different settings.

Try the VPN route to see your cameras at night if you cannot get to them.

In my opinion, shutter and gain are the two most important and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies.

Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.

Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-30 (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared.

Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night image results in Casper during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?

So if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.

You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image.

You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.

But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.

Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.
 

Cctvrole

n3wb
Joined
Aug 16, 2021
Messages
15
Reaction score
3
Location
Uk
That's similar to asking how long a piece of rope is, no definitive answer. Installers usually leave tings all on "auto" which results in nice still shots and blurred motion.

There are too many variables involved for any general settings to work properly. Auto settings won't work well, usually, because of those same variables. It comes down to how much light is available, either visible or infrared, shutter speed (exposure), gain, exposure compensation, brightness, contrast and so on. I have a few cameras around my house. There is no "magic" combination of settings that works for all of them. Each is set differently depending on view and available light.

If you have internet at the locations, you can use a VPN and sign into the local network at those locations from anywhere. A VPN will provides access to the network just as if you were directly connected, minus a little delay for the roundtrip of data of course. That would let you adjust things remotely as well as be able to watch things remotely. This is not the kind of VPN used to surf anonymously. It provides a link from your remote device, computer or phone, to your own network, not the other way around. Most Asus and some Netgear routers have a VPN already built in that simply needs to be activated to use.

VPN Primer
That was what I thought. That it's impossible to get the best image if you don't see it at night and change it manually.

My monitoring central were the dahua nvr is going to be integrated with my alarm system wants me to provide them with IP Adress. On Hik I remembered I could create a ddns link to the NVR. But I can't find anything on the NVR were it says ddns link. And actually the monitoring central told me regarding the VPN that it was a most from their side. They will provide me a VPN profile so I can install it on my teltonika 4g router (we have ADSL so I bought a 4g subscription) the poeblem is that I can't provide them with a ddns link for each camera or to the NVR. But like you explained with help of the VPN profile they will be able to login to the NVR?


And the next question I had was that I actually bought a speaker to just try and connect it to the NVR bought an adastra active speaker model AH25. As soon as connected the speaker I hear like a buzzing sound sound can't find the issue and no one seems to know what the ooeblel could be. Tried with an 12v adapter that didn't work tried it with a Batteri after reading on diffent forums that didn't help.

Thanks again for the advice and the help
 

Cctvrole

n3wb
Joined
Aug 16, 2021
Messages
15
Reaction score
3
Location
Uk
^+1 this!!!

The folks I know that paid a "professional" really only got the cables ran, NVR plugged in, and cameras screwed into the house. Everything was on default settings.

You do enough of these cameras, and you start to get a feel for what settings you would adjust based on knowing and seeing the field of view, but no two cameras will have the same settings.

Identical cameras, one of the front of my house and the other on the back, are two completely different settings.

Try the VPN route to see your cameras at night if you cannot get to them.

In my opinion, shutter and gain are the two most important and then base the others off of it. Shutter is more important than FPS. It is the shutter speed that prevents motion blur, not FPS. 15 FPS is more than enough for surveillance cameras as we are not producing Hollywood movies.

Many people do not realize there is manual shutter that lets you adjust shutter and gain and a shutter priority that only lets you adjust shutter speed but not gain. The higher the gain, the bigger the noise and see-through ghosting start to appear because the noise is amplified. Most people select shutter priority and run a faster shutter than they should because it is likely being done at 100 gain, so it is actually defeating their purpose of a faster shutter.

Go into shutter settings and change to manual shutter and start with custom shutter as ms and change to 0-8.3ms and gain 0-50 (night) and 0-30 (day)for starters. Auto could have a shutter speed of 100ms or more with a gain at 100 and shutter priority could result in gain up at 100 which will contribute to significant ghosting and that blinding white you will get from the infrared.

Now what you will notice immediately at night is that your image gets A LOT darker. That faster the shutter, the more light that is needed. But it is a balance. The nice bright night image results in Casper during motion LOL. What do we want, a nice static image or a clean image when there is motion introduced to the scene?

So if it is too dark, then start adding ms to the time. Go to 10ms, 12ms, etc. until you find what you feel is acceptable as an image. Then have someone walk around and see if you can get a clean shot. Try not to go above 16.67ms (but certainly not above 30ms) as that tends to be the point where blur starts to occur. Conversely, if it is still bright, then drop down in time to get a faster shutter.

You can also adjust brightness and contrast to improve the image.

You can also add some gain to brighten the image - but the higher the gain, the more ghosting you get. Some cameras can go to 70 or so before it is an issue and some can't go over 50.

But adjusting those two settings will have the biggest impact. The next one is noise reduction. Want to keep that as low as possible. Depending on the amount of light you have, you might be able to get down to 40 or so at night (again camera dependent) and 20-30 during the day, but take it as low as you can before it gets too noisy. Again this one is a balance as well. Too smooth and no noise can result in soft images and contribute to blur.

Do not use backlight features until you have exhausted every other parameter setting. And if you do have to use backlight, take it down as low as possible.
Can't thank you enough for all that explanation. This will definitely help me thanks again for taking your time and writing all this
 
Top