Looking for a camera security system.

nuraman00

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Whats the focal length for the costco cams?
All of these systems provide fixed length cams, and they are all the same.
And they tend to be wide angle. Wide angle seems good, lets you see everything, but in reality you won't be able to id anyone unless they are right in front of your cam.
This may work in some situations, like right in front of a door, but is unlikely to be optimal in all situations.

There are plenty of people who come here because they bought a package, and then figured out it wasn't doing what they needed.

Randy
Ok, I see in this system, what you are talking about:

++++++++++++++++++

Costco Wholesale

  • Field of View: 101° horizontal
  • Lens Size: 2.8mm / Fixed
+++++++++++++++++

When looking at this system, just picking something else for comparison purposes:

8 Channel Security Camera Systems | 8 Camera CCTV System

75 degree view



Does it say somewhere that the lens aren't fixed?

The only thing I am getting is that these lens are a little less wide, 75 degrees vs. the Lorex 101 degrees.
 

fenderman

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Adding on to the previous post, so does that mean if it says the lens are fixed, then there's no zooming?

Vs. this one, which has some zoom?

8 Channel Security Camera Systems | 8 Camera CCTV System

So I can adjust the field of view by zooming?
None of those systems have zoom...some cameras listed have manual varifocal...that can be used at the time of install....those systems are hikvision and insanely overpriced.
If you want the ability to adjust the focal length, look for motorized varifocal cameras...this will make your life much easier..
 

nuraman00

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NVR will take care of any formatting the hdds may need.

re frame rates - imho 15fps should be good enough for most of us
Watched these videos. You're right, 15fps is good.
 

nuraman00

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Whats the focal length for the costco cams?
All of these systems provide fixed length cams, and they are all the same.
And they tend to be wide angle. Wide angle seems good, lets you see everything, but in reality you won't be able to id anyone unless they are right in front of your cam.
This may work in some situations, like right in front of a door, but is unlikely to be optimal in all situations.

There are plenty of people who come here because they bought a package, and then figured out it wasn't doing what they needed.

Randy
None of those systems have zoom...some cameras listed have manual varifocal...that can be used at the time of install....those systems are hikvision and insanely overpriced.
If you want the ability to adjust the focal length, look for motorized varifocal cameras...this will make your life much easier..
Ok, so from @randytsuch's post above, and your post, the cameras may be fixed length, but if I choose wisely, I can get cameras with different field of view angles. Right?

As I said, I'm trying to have a site evaluation done.
 

fenderman

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Ok, so from @randytsuch's post above, and your post, the cameras may be fixed length, but if I choose wisely, I can get cameras with different field of view angles. Right?

As I said, I'm trying to have a site evaluation done.
Buy varifocal cameras and you won't have this problem... You also get the benefit of a precise adjustment it is simply not possible with a fixed lens
 

randytsuch

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Buy one varifocal, and try it, and see how things look through the camera. I had read and researched, but seeing what the cameras sees was still an "eye opener", lol. Also, things look different at night, using ir lights.
 

Tizeye

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There has been a lot of discussion of field of view (FOV), in this case a 2.8 lens returning 101degree horizontal coverage, but as you throw numbers around...what does it really mean. Still photography has standardized it with a baseline measurement, while video (and surveillance cameras) may say the same exact thing but in a different language. Perhaps this will help to put FOV into perspective, as you will see "35mm equivalent" labeled next to lens. Essentially, it is taking the sensor size/focal length and noting the equivalent focal length based on the old 35mm size (now also know as full frame sensor). Sounds confusing but really quite simple...and I am fortunate enough to have a full frame digital camera so don't have to adjust it further, like when I had a crop sensor APC camera which had a 1.5x multiplier, where the security cameras discussed with a 1/2.5" sensor has around a 5x multiplier. I could essentially put that size lens on my camera (or note the zoom reading) to determine exactly what fixed lens I needed for the required coverage.

For reference, the 2.8mm lens with a 1/2.5" sensor returning 101 degree FOV would require an 18mm lens on a full frame sensor for about the same 101 FOV. That is an ultra-wide angle lens. Among the 8 megapixel 4K cameras, Andy doesn't sell the 2.8mm lens camera like he does with the lower megapixel offerings, usually special order, he only sells the 4mm lens version which has an 87 FOV on the same 1/2.5" sensor. On a full frame equivalent, that would be around a 25mm (24mm and 28mm are 'normal' wide angles).

For reference, here is the FOV for common lenses with the 35mm sensor. 50mm (the one that came standard on every camera and considered what the eye naturally sees) is 46 degree FOV; 35mm lens 63FOV; 28mm (most popular consumer wide angle) 75 FOV; 24mm (preferred by pros) 84 FOV, 20mm 94 FOV; 18mm 100 FOV and 16mm (non-fisheye) 107 FOV. Hope that helps.

It should be noted that this FOV equivalent only applies to FOV and not the other lens characteristic, such as depth of field.
 

nuraman00

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Many of us are picking up the Dahua Starlight Turrets - which we typically do not see in any bundles - so we have to create a DIY package.

This is what I would recommend as a starting point based on my purchases:
1) Dahua Starlight Turrent - IPC-HDW5231R-Z - as it is a varifocal you can adjust the FOV to your needs, use this as your principle camera - great for night time images - est $170 each
IPC-HDW5231R-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology
2) Dahua Wedge mini-dome - IPC-HDBW4231F-AS - consider getting one of these for the front door area if you can keep it in the shade from direct UV exposure. I like it because it is smaller and thus looks better. I placed my at eye level.
IPC-HDBW4231F-AS | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology
3) I picked up a NVR with POE switch built in. NVR5216/5232-16P-4KS2 - another option is to get the non-POE port version NVR5216-4KS2 and buy a separate switch. For most of us <=16 cameras should take good care of us.
4) A western digital purple HDD - I purchased a 4TB version and have enough room to add another to the NVR.
5) Dahua junction box for each Turret camera - either the PFA137 or PFB203W ( iirc these are the model, please do double check before purchasing )
PFA137 | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology
PFB203W | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

Do feel free to take a closer look at the discussions around those products and see if you would like to change it up a bit.
( for example maybe you need a PTZ camera? or a camera with a better "zoom" .. )
Based on the recent discussion about variable focus, # 1 caught my eye again.

Would you buy a camera from an eBay seller in China?

How many feet is the night vision rating for those cameras? I can't find that info.

I see the NVR for # 3 is $245 here, is that a good price?

It's the 4216 model, not the 5216 you linked to. It doesn't seem there's much of a difference. Is it ok?

Dahua OEM NVR4216-4K 16ch NVR 1U 12MP 16 Channel 4K Network Recorder | eBay

For 3rd party support, it lists non Dahau brands:

++++++++++++++++++++

NVR5216/5232-16P-4KS2 | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

Third-party Support Dahua, Arecont Vision, AXIS, Bosch, Brickcom, Canon, CP Plus, Dynacolor, Honeywell, Panasonic, Pelco, Samsung, Sanyo, Sony, Videotec, and more
+++++++++++++++++++++++

Does that mean I can connect cameras from those brands to the NVR?

Also, I asked earlier, but what is the junction box for?

Can I just connect an ethernet cable from the camera to the NVR?
 

Tizeye

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A few points in reply to your post...
1) Be careful of EvilBay, China seller or otherwise is immaterial, and I say that as an EBay seller. You have no idea how many of my auctions have been cancelled or high bidder removed due to bidder fraud which Ebay is fairly good at catching. The same could be said in reverse concerning sellers. Concerning security cameras - many of the low priced cameras with near identical model numbers are designed for the China market where firmware cannot be updated for international and cheaper construction - plastic housing where is metal on international version, etc.
2) AliExpress (Alibaba) is basically the Amazon of China and is even listed on the NYSE with the symbol BABA. Andy, who goes under the store name Empire Express as his user name on the forum has a very good reputation. My first order was basically 2 day delivery from China to the US east coast when you adjust for the International Date Line. (It left China and arrived in Cincinnati and clearing customs same day but hours before it left China!) My second order is in progress with slight delay due to 3.6mm camera was out of stock but good communication on both orders with direct emails from Andy. Only problems/issues - return policies are not as generous as may be use to, so know what you are ordering, and both time, VISA has tagged it in their fraud prevention department so had to jump through the extra hoop letting VISA know I placed an order in China. Since it is hard to find on this forum, and Andy doesn't actively promote, I bookmarked the site. Empire Technology Co., Ltd - Small Orders Online Store, Hot Selling and more on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group AliExpress website is a bit quirky to navigate. The blue banner line, and sub menus keep you in the store. However, if you use the search bar at top or use the web path links to navigate, you leave the store and go to all stores on AliExpress and not be aware on another vendor's page.
3) Not surprised Dahua only shows 1080p kits on their web page and doesn't even show all models of individual products - such as 8 MP turrets in the US. They are not going to compete with their re-branding vendors such as Lorex and don't even list them as 'compatible models'. The same is true of Lorex. Notice how on their website, both kits and individual products, don't even list the LNK71082T (4k NVR's are 6000 and 9000 series) or the 8MP LKB33B which are in the Costco LOrex kit. Lorex only shows the 6000 and 9000 4K NVR series which by photo is materially different from the Costco 7108 lacking the rear exhaust fan - which might be a good thing considering the noise issues with that fan. Likewise, the only 8MP 4K camera is the LNB8111B which looks identical to the the LKB33B.
4) Concering your links - something to be aware of on Dahua model numbers. Notice how some have a middle designator "16P" (or 8P, 32P etc) where others don't. Those models with the "P" have a built in PoE switch (and the noisy rear fan) for the stated number of ports (8, 16, 24, 32 etc) where those without, you need to provide your own switch with sufficient number of PoE ports. The other part of the model number, 4216 and 5216 in your links, Dahua list them as "Lite" and "Pro" selling side by side, but I tend to think of as last year and current year models. About the only difference is that the 4000 series record rate is 200mbps where the 5000 series record rate is 320mbps, so if price is similar, get the 5000 series. The last digit indicates the number of ports that the NVR's firmware can support as the non-P models dependent on an external switch only have a single uplink port in the back. Incidently, the Lorex LNK9082 that I am returning, specwise matches up with the 4208-8P both from marketing photos of external features - back panel arrangement, plus internal pictures of components seen on this forum - and this thread.
5) You may want to go ahead an get the Costco with their generous return policy. It will answer a lot of your questions and give great insight. Personally, when I installed, I crimped and ran my own wires to the custom length, so re-packing for return was simple as it just required taking down cameras but leaving wires in place...and you will never rewind the provided wires that tightly to put back in the box. Cat5e is sufficient, but I upgraded to Cat6 and both a available at Monoprice.
Hope that helps
 

nuraman00

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A few points in reply to your post...
1) Be careful of EvilBay, China seller or otherwise is immaterial, and I say that as an EBay seller. You have no idea how many of my auctions have been cancelled or high bidder removed due to bidder fraud which Ebay is fairly good at catching. The same could be said in reverse concerning sellers. Concerning security cameras - many of the low priced cameras with near identical model numbers are designed for the China market where firmware cannot be updated for international and cheaper construction - plastic housing where is metal on international version, etc.
2) AliExpress (Alibaba) is basically the Amazon of China and is even listed on the NYSE with the symbol BABA. Andy, who goes under the store name Empire Express as his user name on the forum has a very good reputation. My first order was basically 2 day delivery from China to the US east coast when you adjust for the International Date Line. (It left China and arrived in Cincinnati and clearing customs same day but hours before it left China!) My second order is in progress with slight delay due to 3.6mm camera was out of stock but good communication on both orders with direct emails from Andy. Only problems/issues - return policies are not as generous as may be use to, so know what you are ordering, and both time, VISA has tagged it in their fraud prevention department so had to jump through the extra hoop letting VISA know I placed an order in China. Since it is hard to find on this forum, and Andy doesn't actively promote, I bookmarked the site. Empire Technology Co., Ltd - Small Orders Online Store, Hot Selling and more on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group AliExpress website is a bit quirky to navigate. The blue banner line, and sub menus keep you in the store. However, if you use the search bar at top or use the web path links to navigate, you leave the store and go to all stores on AliExpress and not be aware on another vendor's page.
3) Not surprised Dahua only shows 1080p kits on their web page and doesn't even show all models of individual products - such as 8 MP turrets in the US. They are not going to compete with their re-branding vendors such as Lorex and don't even list them as 'compatible models'. The same is true of Lorex. Notice how on their website, both kits and individual products, don't even list the LNK71082T (4k NVR's are 6000 and 9000 series) or the 8MP LKB33B which are in the Costco LOrex kit. Lorex only shows the 6000 and 9000 4K NVR series which by photo is materially different from the Costco 7108 lacking the rear exhaust fan - which might be a good thing considering the noise issues with that fan. Likewise, the only 8MP 4K camera is the LNB8111B which looks identical to the the LKB33B.
4) Concering your links - something to be aware of on Dahua model numbers. Notice how some have a middle designator "16P" (or 8P, 32P etc) where others don't. Those models with the "P" have a built in PoE switch (and the noisy rear fan) for the stated number of ports (8, 16, 24, 32 etc) where those without, you need to provide your own switch with sufficient number of PoE ports. The other part of the model number, 4216 and 5216 in your links, Dahua list them as "Lite" and "Pro" selling side by side, but I tend to think of as last year and current year models. About the only difference is that the 4000 series record rate is 200mbps where the 5000 series record rate is 320mbps, so if price is similar, get the 5000 series. The last digit indicates the number of ports that the NVR's firmware can support as the non-P models dependent on an external switch only have a single uplink port in the back. Incidently, the Lorex LNK9082 that I am returning, specwise matches up with the 4208-8P both from marketing photos of external features - back panel arrangement, plus internal pictures of components seen on this forum - and this thread.
5) You may want to go ahead an get the Costco with their generous return policy. It will answer a lot of your questions and give great insight. Personally, when I installed, I crimped and ran my own wires to the custom length, so re-packing for return was simple as it just required taking down cameras but leaving wires in place...and you will never rewind the provided wires that tightly to put back in the box. Cat5e is sufficient, but I upgraded to Cat6 and both a available at Monoprice.
Hope that helps
How do you know Lorex is a rebranding of Dahua?

I think I'm still not understanding the purpose of the PoE switch. Don't I just connect an ethernet cable from each port on the NVR, to each camera?

How does the camera know whether it's being connected to an 8 port or 16 port NVR? Isn't it only the NVR that has to know?

Is there a good connection I can look at?

Why are you returning your Lorex?

Also, just a general question about cameras with variable zoom. Can the zoom be remotely controlled, such as through a PC? I don't have to physically go to the camera and hit a zoom button, right?
 

nuraman00

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There has been a lot of discussion of field of view (FOV), in this case a 2.8 lens returning 101degree horizontal coverage, but as you throw numbers around...what does it really mean. Still photography has standardized it with a baseline measurement, while video (and surveillance cameras) may say the same exact thing but in a different language. Perhaps this will help to put FOV into perspective, as you will see "35mm equivalent" labeled next to lens. Essentially, it is taking the sensor size/focal length and noting the equivalent focal length based on the old 35mm size (now also know as full frame sensor). Sounds confusing but really quite simple...and I am fortunate enough to have a full frame digital camera so don't have to adjust it further, like when I had a crop sensor APC camera which had a 1.5x multiplier, where the security cameras discussed with a 1/2.5" sensor has around a 5x multiplier. I could essentially put that size lens on my camera (or note the zoom reading) to determine exactly what fixed lens I needed for the required coverage.

For reference, the 2.8mm lens with a 1/2.5" sensor returning 101 degree FOV would require an 18mm lens on a full frame sensor for about the same 101 FOV. That is an ultra-wide angle lens. Among the 8 megapixel 4K cameras, Andy doesn't sell the 2.8mm lens camera like he does with the lower megapixel offerings, usually special order, he only sells the 4mm lens version which has an 87 FOV on the same 1/2.5" sensor. On a full frame equivalent, that would be around a 25mm (24mm and 28mm are 'normal' wide angles).

For reference, here is the FOV for common lenses with the 35mm sensor. 50mm (the one that came standard on every camera and considered what the eye naturally sees) is 46 degree FOV; 35mm lens 63FOV; 28mm (most popular consumer wide angle) 75 FOV; 24mm (preferred by pros) 84 FOV, 20mm 94 FOV; 18mm 100 FOV and 16mm (non-fisheye) 107 FOV. Hope that helps.

It should be noted that this FOV equivalent only applies to FOV and not the other lens characteristic, such as depth of field.
It's still a good idea to get either some variable zoom cameras, or cameras with differing lens / FOVs, right?
 

nuraman00

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looney2ns

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I'm having a hard time navigating their websites.

Where can I find this camera that @mat200 linked to:

IPC-HDW5231R-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

On their other site below? Is this one below the international site?

HDCVI PTZ Cameras

Which site should I be looking at? Will both have models that will work in the US?
Your link to the 5231 is the international site.

2nd link is to the US site.

Purchase here: Empire Technology Co., Ltd - Small Orders Online Store, Hot Selling and more on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group

Or here: BEC Technology Co.,Ltd - Small Orders Online Store, Hot Selling and more on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group
 

nuraman00

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@looney2ns , reading your signature, you list what components you have.

What made you get those to cameras? And why in those quantities? And why 5 of the same?
 
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