Looking for a camera security system.

[nuraman00]

Just an update on this.

I had contacted many installers in August and September. But had decided to use an installer that supplied Dahau cameras and NVRs.

I had one quote from a Dahau installer. He stated his labor charges were high, and they were.

I had another quote from another installer in early September. At the time, it was for 5 cameras.

After further discussion and an onsite visit on September 24th, we decided on 8 cameras.

I had been waiting for a revised estimate since then. He kept saying he was busy but would get to me.


Yesterday, he told me that he no longer orders Dahau parts.



He said my options were to use his supplier, LTS. Or for me to buy by own parts and he would only do the install.


After doing this much research on Dahau cameras and NVRs, I'd prefer to stick with them. And it would help to have an installer that fully supported them, so I could have a single point of support and contact.


Especially since I'm looking for a NVR with 2 HDMI output ports because they will be going to two monitors at different resolutions. I don't know if that is a common feature across other brands.

But what does everyone think about LTS parts?

Also, should I go with 4 MP, or would 2 MP be better for night vision? If 2MP (1080p), then I suppose I only need a single HDMI NVR since I wouldn't be outputting 2 different resolutions to 2 different monitors. If 4 MP, then one of the outputs would need to be to a 1080p monitor, one to a 4K monitor.

 

[Snapper30]

Wow, waiting over 3 months to get an updated quote. When did the installer decide he didn't use Dahua products?

Searching the forum for LTS will give you a general idea of what folks think of their products and service. LTS uses Hikvision products, and Nelly's Security (a forum vendor) has switched from Dahua to Hikvision also.

 

[nuraman00]

Wow, waiting over 3 months to get an updated quote. When did the installer decide he didn't use Dahua products?

Searching the forum for LTS will give you a general idea of what folks think of their products and service. LTS uses Hikvision products, and Nelly's Security (a forum vendor) has switched from Dahua to Hikvision also.

He informed me this week (Wednesday).

During a call yesterday, he said he that Dahau wasn't a brand his company officially endorsed, and that trying to support other brands was branching out too much. His company wouldn't know the products as well, and in some ways they would be learning some things along with me.

So he decided to only support their official brand.

He also said the process of getting updated quotes for Dahau parts was annoying, and it could take a day, whereas with LTS, he had a fixed price sheets.

One of the other installers I liked, also charged almost double the hourly rate what other installers were charging. He also estimated 35 hours of labor in his quote, which was also more hours.

So hence why I'm considering other installers, and I suppose now other parts (LTS).

What is your opinion on 4 MP vs. 2 MP? What would be best but also sufficient for night vision?

 

[nuraman00]

Will search this forum for LTS now.

 

[nuraman00]

I still don't understand the difference between Hikvision, and Hikvision OEM, as stated in this link. What does it mean to be a Hikvision OEM brand, vs. non OEM brand?

It it kind of like how for cars, Infiniti uses Nissan parts?

How to Solve Hikvision, LTS and OCULUR Backdoor Vulnerability

 

[nuraman00]

In the past 6 months, I've used anywhere from 10 G a month in bandwidth, to 84 G a month.

How much bandwidth will 8 cameras recording 24/7 at 15fps, H.265 compression, and let's say worst case 4 MP resolution use?

My internet plan has a 1 TB limit.

This article though says bandwidth is only used when viewing footage, not recording?

How Much Data Do Wireless Home Security Systems Use?

Is this true?

If I have a NVR outputting to 2 monitors at the same time, but I'm not viewing the footage, it's not going to use bandwidth?

 

[Snapper30]

I still don't understand the difference between Hikvision, and Hikvision OEM, as stated in this link. What does it mean to be a Hikvision OEM brand, vs. non OEM brand?

It it kind of like how for cars, Infiniti uses Nissan parts?

Hikvision (or Dahua) cams have their name on them. OEM means Hikvision (or Dahua) made the cam for someone else to sell with another name (LTS, etc) or no name (unbranded). The OEM version 'may' differ from the branded model depending on what the reseller specifies. LTS may have their own firmware on NVRs for example.
Hope this helps.

 

[nuraman00]

Hikvision (or Dahua) cams have their name on them. OEM means Hikvision (or Dahua) made the cam for someone else to sell with another name (LTS, etc) or no name (unbranded). The OEM version 'may' differ from the branded model depending on what the reseller specifies. LTS may have their own firmware on NVRs for example.
Hope this helps.

Thank you. That helps, and also points out something that could be different between the two (firmware).

 

[nuraman00]

Will search this forum for LTS now.

From my search, these two threads seem favorable, although the end user is the same person I think (@horseflesh).

LTS LTN8916-P16 4K NVR unboxing, first impressions

LTS (Hikvision) LTN8916-P16 4K NVR

I couldn't find any other threads that were about impressions.

Other threads about LTS seemed to be a problem configuring this or that, or asking for help.

 

[Snapper30]

What is your opinion on 4 MP vs. 2 MP? What would be best but also sufficient for night vision?

As shown in the many threads and sample captures on this forum and YouTube- it depends. What is the purpose of the cam, what is the location, how much lighting is in the FOV, etc, etc.

The camera portion of your security plan should address specific needs based on your house and surrounding area. Hopefully most of the installers did this as part of their site visit. If not, print a satellite photo or draw a sketch of the house and determine what your needs are, then you will be able to start selecting hardware. Use DORI as a basis and go to the IPVM tool "IPVM Camera Calculator V3".
A lot of this info is in the summary @mat200 has compiled.

 

[Philip Gonzales]

In the past 6 months, I've used anywhere from 10 G a month in bandwidth, to 84 G a month.

How much bandwidth will 8 cameras recording 24/7 at 15fps, H.265 compression, and let's say worst case 4 MP resolution use?

My internet plan has a 1 TB limit.

This article though says bandwidth is only used when viewing footage, not recording?

How Much Data Do Wireless Home Security Systems Use?

Is this true?

If I have a NVR outputting to 2 monitors at the same time, but I'm not viewing the footage, it's not going to use bandwidth?

I don't think you will have to worry about your ISP limit unless you are streaming remotely 24x7. Me and my family use about 200-300GB per month, sometimes maybe even 500GB. We watch netflex and hulu for several hours a day almost everyday.

Whenever you are recording, usually you are recording locally. By locally I mean your NVR and IP cameras will be communicating with each other over private IP addresses. This traffic will not go out your router. Basically it will go from your cam, directly through your NVR (Possibly through a PoE switch if your NVR does not come with built in PoE ports). Since it does not go out your router to the internet then it will not use any bandwidth from your ISP. When you are viewing footage on your monitors, this traffic is also coming straight from the NVR via HDMI, again no bandwith used. Let's say you want to view footage from a smartphone or computer. If you are connected to your network (wifi or hardwired in your home) then again no bandwidth used. Now if you are remote (outside of your house) and you want to pull up your cameras on a smartphone or computer, this traffic will indeed be using bandwidth. How much depends on several different factors, like your max upload speed, how many cameras and at what resolutions your are viewing them, if the DVR allows you to limit the upload, etc.

I watch my cameras remotely from work several times a day, for a few minutes each time. Maybe as much as 10 or 20 times a day if something interesting is going on or if I am bored at work and what not. I use Blue Iris and there is an option to limit the bandwidth of the stream. I usually limit my stream to 4mbps, which seems to be more than enough as far as clarity goes, when viewing remotely. Still my total bandwidth used per month is around 200-300GB a month. You will likely notice a small increase if you review your footage remotely often but I doubt you will have any worries of going over 1TB unless you are watching it remotely for hours and hours on end.

Just my 2 cents, but if I were you what I would do is just buy 8 Dahua 5231's from Andy and get your installer to install them. If you need help dialing in the settings after he sets them up I'm sure we could assist. They run a little less than $175 a piece if I remember correctly. They are the best bang for your buck ip cam you can get. They are reliable even in very hot, cold, wet, etc, environments. They have superb low light capabilities. They are varifocal so you can zoom in as tight as needed for the perfect viewing "window". They have SD card slots so that you can have a backup of your video in case your DVR Hard Drives fail. To me I don't see why anyone would want to stray from what has proven time and time again to work. If you search 5231 on this forum you will see how blown away each and every person is that has installed these, including myself. Generally when the sensor size is the same, less MP means better low light performance. 2MP is plenty for daytime, and for nightime anymore and you end up with a worse night image. If you are not concerned with night time then you can get higher MP cameras.

IPC-HDW5231R-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

Hopefully this info helped a bit as I tend to ramble on sometimes.

 

[nuraman00]

As shown in the many threads and sample captures on this forum and YouTube- it depends. What is the purpose of the cam, what is the location, how much lighting is in the FOV, etc, etc.

The camera portion of your security plan should address specific needs based on your house and surrounding area. Hopefully most of the installers did this as part of their site visit. If not, print a satellite photo or draw a sketch of the house and determine what your needs are, then you will be able to start selecting hardware. Use DORI as a basis and go to the IPVM tool "IPVM Camera Calculator V3".
A lot of this info is in the summary @mat200 has compiled.

I just checked the quotes from 5 different installers. (Some at the early stages of when I inquired about a system, some later on when I had a better idea of what I wanted).

All of the installers had 4 MP cameras.

Some of them have done the estimate in different ways (whether onsite visit, or pictures I sent them, or Google Maps), but they all recommended 4 MP cameras.

I guess that settles it.

Still, I asked this same question to the installer I've been in contact most recently (2 MP or 4 MP).

I also remember Steve from Dahau offered his opinion on this matter, when discussing surveillance needs in general, on his own. I don't remember if he said 2 MP or 4 MP, but he did say that more MPs in general wouldn't be as good for night because each pixel would capture less information. This viewpoint has also been confirmed by elsewhere on forums.

 

[nuraman00]

I don't think you will have to worry about your ISP limit unless you are streaming remotely 24x7. Me and my family use about 200-300GB per month, sometimes maybe even 500GB. We watch netflex and hulu for several hours a day almost everyday.

Whenever you are recording, usually you are recording locally. By locally I mean your NVR and IP cameras will be communicating with each other over private IP addresses. This traffic will not go out your router. Basically it will go from your cam, directly through your NVR (Possibly through a PoE switch if your NVR does not come with built in PoE ports). Since it does not go out your router to the internet then it will not use any bandwidth from your ISP. When you are viewing footage on your monitors, this traffic is also coming straight from the NVR via HDMI, again no bandwith used. Let's say you want to view footage from a smartphone or computer. If you are connected to your network (wifi or hardwired in your home) then again no bandwidth used. Now if you are remote (outside of your house) and you want to pull up your cameras on a smartphone or computer, this traffic will indeed be using bandwidth. How much depends on several different factors, like your max upload speed, how many cameras and at what resolutions your are viewing them, if the DVR allows you to limit the upload, etc.

I watch my cameras remotely from work several times a day, for a few minutes each time. Maybe as much as 10 or 20 times a day if something interesting is going on or if I am bored at work and what not. I use Blue Iris and there is an option to limit the bandwidth of the stream. I usually limit my stream to 4mbps, which seems to be more than enough as far as clarity goes, when viewing remotely. Still my total bandwidth used per month is around 200-300GB a month. You will likely notice a small increase if you review your footage remotely often but I doubt you will have any worries of going over 1TB unless you are watching it remotely for hours and hours on end.

Just my 2 cents, but if I were you what I would do is just buy 8 Dahua 5231's from Andy and get your installer to install them. If you need help dialing in the settings after he sets them up I'm sure we could assist. They run a little less than $175 a piece if I remember correctly. They are the best bang for your buck ip cam you can get. They are reliable even in very hot, cold, wet, etc, environments. They have superb low light capabilities. They are varifocal so you can zoom in as tight as needed for the perfect viewing "window". They have SD card slots so that you can have a backup of your video in case your DVR Hard Drives fail. To me I don't see why anyone would want to stray from what has proven time and time again to work. If you search 5231 on this forum you will see how blown away each and every person is that has installed these, including myself. Generally when the sensor size is the same, less MP means better low light performance. 2MP is plenty for daytime, and for nightime anymore and you end up with a worse night image. If you are not concerned with night time then you can get higher MP cameras.

IPC-HDW5231R-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

Hopefully this info helped a bit as I tend to ramble on sometimes.

Thank you very much for the explanation on the bandwidth!

If I use my web browser at home on my PC, that would use bandwidth, right?

I would only use the web browser on the PC just to see if using the web browser works. Since I have those 2 monitors, I would actually use them when I want to actually view, and not just "test view".


Is there a dome version of the 5231? As every installer has recommended some parts of my site have dome cameras.

I want 6 dome, and 2 eyeball cameras.

I am concerned about night image, so I'd lean toward the 2 MP for better night performance than the 4 MP.

These were the eyeball cameras I was considering a few months ago. I see now they don't even have H.265 compression. While your 5231's do.

N42AH3Z


I just want an installer that fully supports and is knowledgeable about Dahau cameras, while not charging about double the hourly rate as the one installer does. I want to make the most out of the installation, so I want someone who knows the product well.

LTS is seeming decent, so since this latest installer supplies them, I may go with them. He still has to get me that updated quote, though.

He said he would install Dahau, but I'd have to buy my own parts, and he isn't as familiar with them. Having an installer familiar with a product line is important to me, so I can ask and learn as much as possible during that installation period.

 

[Philip Gonzales]

Thank you very much for the explanation on the bandwidth!

Is there a dome version of the 5231? As every installer has recommended some parts of my site have dome cameras.

I want 6 dome, and 2 eyeball cameras.

I am concerned about night image, so I'd lean toward the 2 MP for better night performance than the 4 MP.

These were the eyeball cameras I was considering a few months ago. I see now they don't even have H.265 compression. While your 5231's do.

N42AH3Z


I just want an installer that fully supports and is knowledgeable about Dahau cameras, while not charging about double the hourly rate as the one installer does. I want to make the most out of the installation, so I want someone who knows the product well.

LTS is seeming decent, so since this latest installer supplies them, I may go with them. He still has to get me that updated quote, though.

He said he would install Dahau, but I'd have to buy my own parts, and he isn't as familiar with them. Having an installer familiar with a product line is important to me, so I can ask and learn as much as possible during that installation period.

From what I have read on the forum, domes are not usually recommended for outdoor use. The reason being reflections bouncing off of the dome glass cause issue. This can be caused by IR of the cam (called IR glare) or from the sun. Also you can get other issues such as condensation build up as well as snow or dirt on the glass. Turret cams are what everyone on this forum recommends. Bullets usually have issues with spider webs, while turrets do not.

I believe this is the dome equivalent of the 5231 turret that everyone on here loves.

IPC-HDBW5231R-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

Here is a list that was updated in March 2017 with all the Dahua Starlight cams.

Dahua 2MP Starlight Lineup

I have one of these mimi wedge Dahua cams in my living room. Works well. Generally one of the recommended cams for indoors or front door/patio depending on if it gets direct sunlight.

IPC-HDBW4231F-AS | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

Here is the Dahua naming convention wiki as the names get confusing.

Template:NameConvention - Dahua Wiki

If the installer is any good he should be able to figure out just about any brand of cam/NVR. Like I said before for any question you cold always ask the seller (ANDY) or the forum. He is very knowledgeable and the people on here know a thing or two also.

If you do decide to stick with LTS, be sure to post some images/video as I would be interested to see. I would be cautious about getting domes but regardless let us know how it turns out.

 

[Snapper30]

The installers spec'd 4MP cameras because 4 MP is the sweet price point right now, and many consumers go off MP only. MP is not the only characteristic you should look at for cameras.

You have the answer from this forum and the Dahua rep - the best camera is what will work for a specific location at your site!

You stated in the beginning of this thread "And for me, just being able to monitor is what I want. I'm not as concerned about being alerted when something bad happens, as I am just being able to active monitor when I choose." Do you only want to know if something is happening? You're not concerned about who is doing it? If so then your needs are different than if you want a quality image to Identify who was doing whatever.

You listed a specific requirement - the ability to have cam video on two separate monitors in two locations. This requirement determines your hardware choices.
Now do the same for each area you're concerned about monitoring with a camera. For example - I want to see if someone is in my driveway, or I want to see what that person is doing by my car in the driveway, or do i know the person who is by my car, or can anyone identify the person etc.

Check out post #6 in this thread: "HOA Approvals for camera installation" to see the differences in cameras.

 

[nuraman00]

From what I have read on the forum, domes are not usually recommended for outdoor use. The reason being reflections bouncing off of the dome glass cause issue. This can be caused by IR of the cam (called IR glare) or from the sun. Also you can get other issues such as condensation build up as well as snow or dirt on the glass. Turret cams are what everyone on this forum recommends. Bullets usually have issues with spider webs, while turrets do not.

I believe this is the dome equivalent of the 5231 turret that everyone on here loves.

IPC-HDBW5231R-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

Here is a list that was updated in March 2017 with all the Dahua Starlight cams.

Dahua 2MP Starlight Lineup

I have one of these mimi wedge Dahua cams in my living room. Works well. Generally one of the recommended cams for indoors or front door/patio depending on if it gets direct sunlight.

IPC-HDBW4231F-AS | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

Here is the Dahua naming convention wiki as the names get confusing.

Template:NameConvention - Dahua Wiki

If the installer is any good he should be able to figure out just about any brand of cam/NVR. Like I said before for any question you cold always ask the seller (ANDY) or the forum. He is very knowledgeable and the people on here know a thing or two also.

If you do decide to stick with LTS, be sure to post some images/video as I would be interested to see. I would be cautious about getting domes but regardless let us know how it turns out.

I think the reason why all of the installers have recommended domes for major parts of my site, are that the roof overhangs are in low areas. Most agree there that there's only 2 spots that are high enough to be out of reach for intruders and can thus be used by turrets.

I've also asked most installers about the glare, rain, and sun issues. They say sometimes it can be a small problem, but they can position around it. Or they say their cameras are weatherproof.

Here's an exact answer to the question from an installer, again bringing up the lowness of the site:

++++++++++++++

This is an issue when sunlight and flood lights are in the wrong angle of the dome. We try to position around this. But when you have a low camera this is your only option. Unless you go with pinhole. But those are very difficult to aim after the install.

++++++++++++++++++

 

[nuraman00]

The installers spec'd 4MP cameras because 4 MP is the sweet price point right now, and many consumers go off MP only. MP is not the only characteristic you should look at for cameras.

You have the answer from this forum and the Dahua rep - the best camera is what will work for a specific location at your site!

You stated in the beginning of this thread "And for me, just being able to monitor is what I want. I'm not as concerned about being alerted when something bad happens, as I am just being able to active monitor when I choose." Do you only want to know if something is happening? You're not concerned about who is doing it? If so then your needs are different than if you want a quality image to Identify who was doing whatever.

You listed a specific requirement - the ability to have cam video on two separate monitors in two locations. This requirement determines your hardware choices.
Now do the same for each area you're concerned about monitoring with a camera. For example - I want to see if someone is in my driveway, or I want to see what that person is doing by my car in the driveway, or do i know the person who is by my car, or can anyone identify the person etc.

Check out post #6 in this thread: "HOA Approvals for camera installation" to see the differences in cameras.

What I meant is that I want 24/7 recording, and then alerts if something is happening. The right type of cameras, with the right positioning set during the install, should identify who is doing it. That's why I'm also getting varifocal cameras, so we can make some adjustments during the install to really see what's best.

 

[nuraman00]

Here are 3 dome cameras. What are the differences between them?

http://www1.dahuasecurity.com/Products/ProductDetail/14161

http://www1.dahuasecurity.com/Products/ProductDetail/14211

Dahua Technology - Leading Video Surveillance Solution Provider with CCTV Products, IP Camera, PTZ, HDCVI products, NVR, Intelligent Building, Intelligent Transportation and Software - Dahua Technology

#1 seems like it zooms less than # 2 and # 3.

# 1 and #2 seems like it supports PoE+ while # 3 doesn't.

Can anyone else confirm? Is there anything else?

 

[nuraman00]

From what I have read on the forum, domes are not usually recommended for outdoor use. The reason being reflections bouncing off of the dome glass cause issue. This can be caused by IR of the cam (called IR glare) or from the sun. Also you can get other issues such as condensation build up as well as snow or dirt on the glass. Turret cams are what everyone on this forum recommends. Bullets usually have issues with spider webs, while turrets do not.

I believe this is the dome equivalent of the 5231 turret that everyone on here loves.

IPC-HDBW5231R-Z | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

Here is a list that was updated in March 2017 with all the Dahua Starlight cams.

Dahua 2MP Starlight Lineup

I have one of these mimi wedge Dahua cams in my living room. Works well. Generally one of the recommended cams for indoors or front door/patio depending on if it gets direct sunlight.

IPC-HDBW4231F-AS | Dahua Technology - Dahua Technology

Here is the Dahua naming convention wiki as the names get confusing.

Template:NameConvention - Dahua Wiki

If the installer is any good he should be able to figure out just about any brand of cam/NVR. Like I said before for any question you cold always ask the seller (ANDY) or the forum. He is very knowledgeable and the people on here know a thing or two also.

If you do decide to stick with LTS, be sure to post some images/video as I would be interested to see. I would be cautious about getting domes but regardless let us know how it turns out.

For some reason I'm having trouble opening your links to Dahau today (links # 1 and # 3). They seemed to be working on Saturday.

 

[nuraman00]

Steve from Dahau said he's going to have other installers reach out to me. Since the aforementioned one no longer orders Dahau. And I said the first one's labor rates were almost double other installers (which the installer told me up front would the case).