Looking for guidance - hopefully I've come to the right place ...

[Jinajon]

Howdy everyone

First post here; please let me know if it is misplaced.

I'm in a bit of an average situation at the moment, a bit scared of some people out for 'retribution' ... unfortunately they have the wrong guy! But I can't seem to convince them of that. Being a decent law-abiding citizen, its all a bit new to me.
Anyways, I've put off installing a security system for years, mainly because of the cost and my low threat model; but I think now is the time.

Bear with me because I'm new to this (obviously), but any help, direction, affirmation, critique, thoughts, or opinions will be much appreciated.

From having a bit of a snoop around yesterday, Dahua seems to be generally the best way to go, and Andy from Empire Tech seems to be the cheapest source. I've had a bit of a trawl through the forum, Cliff Notes, etc. already, but that doesn't make me an expert.
I am an electronics tech and will be installing/adjusting the whole system myself.

What I need from the system:

• Insurance/evidence.
• Image quality. I would rather pay more to get this than find that when I need the footage it is no use.
• Reliability (although I intend to tinker/adjust, I don't want to need to).
• LPR (dedicated camera).
• At least one very good low light camera, or a suitable IR/flood illuminator combination.

To cover the property I am looking at ending up with 8-10 cameras probably, but starting out with 3-6 depending on cost. I have prioritised these below:
----------------------------------------------
Camera#1:
- Turret/Eyeball camera (Front porch, aimed East):
- Most important camera
- Street lights, porch light, and daylight
- Preferably 4K, day footage most important
- Needs audio
Camera#2:
- Covert camera (Foyer):
Camera#3:
- Any form factor camera (Back yard, aimed E):
- Pitch dark and daylight
- Needs best night vision or with IR or LED flood light
- Bullet style?
Camera#4:
- LPR camera (Licence Plate Reader, aimed E):
- Street lights and daylight
- Two lanes, low traffic, 50kph
- Probably hidden behind fence 3-4ft high
Camera#5:
- Turret/Eyeball camera (Front porch, aimed NW):
- Street lights and daylight. Low light footage preference.
Camera#6:
- Turret/Eyeball camera (House, E side, aimed NE down drive):
- Dark and daylight
- Kind want to have my cake and eat it too with this one. Big, kinda critical area to cover, 4K be nice, but need good low light footage too.
- Could do two cameras?
Camera#7:
- Covert camera (Front Door, face ID):
Camera#8:
- Covert camera (Back Door, face ID):
Camera#9:
- Interior camera (Inside shed):
- Later addition to system
Camera#10:
- Turret/Eyeball camera (House, W side, aimed NW):
- Later addition to system
----------------------------------------------

Given the limited info above, what would you recommend for cameras?

Based on some of the recommendations I have seen around, I have been looking at:
IPC-HDW5831R-ZE (8MP WDR IR Eyeball)
IPC-HUM8431-E1 (Main Box) / IPC-HUM8431-L3 (Camera) (For covert cameras)
IPC-HFW5831E-ZE (Bullet style for dark back yard)
IPC-HFW5431E-Z5 or IPC-HFW5231E-Z12 (Licence plate reader)
IPC-HDW5442TM-AS/ASE

Also given the limited info above, what would you recommend for an NVR?

After looking at the Blue Iris/PC route I think an NVR will be simpler, at least for now. Is this a smart choice ... ? Auto plate reading would be nice, but a bit OTT at this stage, and don't think it can be done with just an NVR? I mainly just need to be able to actually read licence plates from footage.

Anything I haven't considered that I should?

Looking forward to your thoughts.


Cheers,
Jinajon

 

[aristobrat]

LPR is a subject onto itself, so definitely check out the LPR sub-forum if you haven't already. For LPR to work at night, there's some important settings changes that have to be done, after which the camera will only be able to see reflective things at night. Make sure your LPR cam is only for LPR -- it likely won't be able to "see" other things, like people walking by at night, etc.

The 5831s are pretty old. There should be newer 4K cameras that have better minimum lux specs, which is a rough away to sort how well cameras are likely to perform in low-light settings (lower is better). The 5831's min lux is 0.05. There's a newer 3841 it that's 0.007. Not 4K, but 5442 model has become super popular here because of it's 0.003 lux rating. As low as the 5442's lux rating is, it scan still be a challenging in low light to get video of things that are moving moving with minimal motion blur.

Another thing to remember is that each camera has its own DORI values ... how far away from the camera you can Detect that something happening, Observe it, Recognize who it is (assuming you know them) or Identify someone you don't know. Each of those steps require folks to be closer to the camera. Having a 4K camera with a wide-angle lens (like 2.8mm) with give you a nice wide view, but if you want to identify someone, they may need to be within 15 feet of the camera. Depending on your setup, this may mean you need a tighter fixed-lens (3.6mm or 6mm), or get a varifocal model (if available) so you can zoom anywhere from 2.8mm-13mm (or whatever). This is where the idea of using multiple cameras -- one or two for "overviews" that give you an idea that something's going on, then one or two more cameras zoomed in tight over key areas (driveway, front porch) that have a better chance of ID'ing someone that goes in front of them. The IPVM calculator tool is a good tool to visualize this. IPVM Camera Calculator V3

IMO, NVRs can be simpler in that they have fewer options, but don't forget that Dahua/Hikvision design their kit to be professionally installed and configured. While not rocket science, some aspects of their stuff isn't always obvious/intuitive until you've had a chance to play around with it for a bit. The 5208/5216 NVR models used to be the most popular, but not sure if that's still valid. Keep an eye on the Dahua sub-forum here and you should see NVR threads pop up now and again.

Above all else, camera systems aren't security systems. They can be helpful for trying to figure out who did something, but they don't usually deter folks from doing stuff. If you need a security system to help protect you or your property, definitely pursue that first!

 

[samplenhold]

^ what @aristobrat said.
Really the first thing to get is an alarm if you do not have one yet.

It is important to understand what views you will get from a specific location. You really should make a plan that states what you wish to accomplish by putting a cam in a specific location. You have already started that process with your listing of cams above. But without stating exactly what you expect from a cam in that location, if you have an incident and don't get a good useable shot, you will be pissed. Or like the guy down the street that installed several Ring cams and got blurry video of the person pilfering through his truck. His wife said, basically "You spent a grand on those cams and you can't even tell if it is a guy or girl?"

It is good that you are asking for comments. I would advise you to not go and buy a bunch of cams and install them right away. Start out small. I suggest one varifocal cam, like the 5442 turret varifocal (HDW5442T-ZE aka T5442T-ZE). Place it on a test rig as described in the Cliff Notes and test your plan. Do not run wires or mount cam until you are happy with the proposed location. Here is my test rig:


Make sure you walk it at night.

Use that to critique your plan. See what the views look like from the locations you are thinking about. This can also help you decide on the specific cam for each location. It is important to understand what you want from each location/view and buy the appropriate cam for that. Fit-for-purpose cams are really the way to go.

As you begin your cam journey, you will gain experience and knowledge which will most probably cause you to change your plan. It did to me and countless others. The cam plan is ever evolving. New ideas will present themselves as you progress.

LPR is a whole different ballgame. Part science part art. Really advise to wait a bit until you really understand how cams work and get most of your other plan installed BEFORE you go down the LPR rabbit hole.

Don't chase MP. The 8MP cams look nice during the day in a still pic, but at night with motion they do not perform. The current go to sensor for Dahua is the 1/1.8" sensor. The 5442 series is 4MP on that sensor. If you take the same sensor and place 8MP on it, each pixel gets half the light that the 4MP pixel gets. That means that for an 8MP cam to perform as well as the 4MP on the same sensor, it needs TWICE the light.

Deciding between the NVR or BI on a PC is really personal choice. I decided on BI on PC and am very happy I did. But many here use an NVR.

PS: listing 'Halfway to somewhere' as your location really does not provide info for anyone here to help you. Often times knowing where you are located, at least your country or state, will help others to give you help. Like if you are in AU, there are many great, knowledgeable AU members that can give area specific advice, including where to get supplies and cams.

 

[Jinajon]

Thanks for the input guys - some good food for thought already.

This is definitely not meant to be a "security system" as in 'prevention' - I'm looking at other avenues for that side of things. Thanks @aristobrat

Fit-for-purpose cams are really the way to go.

Bang on there, and the main purpose of my post is to find this out ... although I actually asked the wrong question now that I think about it. I asked "what cameras should I get", when I should have asked "how do I figure out what cameras to get?"

So it's kinda sounding like I should buy one camera, (HDW5442T-ZE?) and either NVR or PC+BI, get it set up without actually installing, and use it to help figure a better camera/placement plan. (I like your test rig BTW @samplenhold!)
I know what I need from the key places, I just don't know the best cameras/positions/settings to achieve it. For example, I'm not at all concerned about night footage on the front porch, I just want audio + max resolution for daytime approach to the front door. DORI from my path intersection (<10m). I'll get any night footage I need from other angles.
Actually, maybe I should start with two cameras: HDW5442T-ZE and a covert, because I know I need at least one?

The LPR camera is definitely intended to do only one job; I'm not expecting to get anything else from it. However it sounds like I should get the system up and running and play with LPR later...
Would there be a particular camera you'd recommend for this, or can it really be any IR camera with its settings tweaked?

Does Blue Iris do the same job as an NVR, or is it more capable? Or does it depend on the NVR?

Has anyone had any particular experience with the 'covert' cameras?


I'm from New Zealand by the way - I put "Halfway To Somewhere" because I am fairly privacy-conscious online by default, not just a jerk

 

[sebastiantombs]

BI is far more powerful and flexible than an NVR. That comes with the price of the learning curve to be able to take full advantage of all of the features that BI has. Most here use a BI setup, but some use NVRs instead or even an NVR feeding BI as well for double backup.

There are a number of threads with covert cameras. The most popular methods being in a birdhouse or mailbox, the mailbox gets "modified with an additional enclosure underneath to contain the cameras. There was recently another, very interesting, thread with the camera concealed it a short piece of 12 inch diameter PVC pipe giving the appearance of a utility access point rather than a camera.

Mailbox Hide Cam Swap, Lucky Fitment

The box had a 6mm bullet facing the house with a 6mm looking South and a 2.8 looking North. I decided I wanted to change the cam facing West (to the house) for two reasons: I want a wider FoV to monitor the full width of the lot and ALSO I want to have an audio source (mic) at the mailbox. I...

ipcamtalk.com

Mailbox Camera

A few months ago I was taking out the trash and while walking down the driveway I noticed a car stopping at our mailbox, opening it and driving away. It was dark so I know it was not the rural mail carrier. We live in a rural area and have had occasions of missing mail in the past. We don't have...

ipcamtalk.com

For LPR, there is a dedicated thread for LPR. The camera of choice, at the moment, is the 5231 series from Dahua with a 12 or 24mm varifocal lens. The big trick is maintaining focus from day to night and getting the shutter speed right especially at night. Basically, and LPR camera will only show the head or tail lights and the plate at night. Everything else will be black.

LPR

Licence Plate Reader cameras

ipcamtalk.com

 

[samplenhold]

Actually, maybe I should start with two cameras: HDW5442T-ZE and a covert, because I know I need at least one?

Until you get experience with cams, I am not sure how you would decide how to make a 'covert' cam. Actually, I am not sure what you mean by 'covert'. Are you talking something that is totally hidden, or just disguised a little? Why 'covert'? Is it that you do not want people to know it is a cam, or just do not want it to stick out screaming "CAMERA HERE!"?

Would there be a particular camera you'd recommend for this, or can it really be any IR camera with its settings tweaked?

The problems that dictate what cams to use for LPR are distance, angle, lighting, and night vision. You are stuck with the street lighting and usually you can't change it. The angle is important so as to not get a side shot of the plate and therefor a foreshortened plate capture which makes reading the lettering difficult or impossible. So you attack that by picking the proper locations for the cams. So picking the cams is based on night vision capabilities (usually using IR) and the distance to the vehicle. Most folks really can't place the cam so close to the street that a standard cam will get a close enough view of the vehicle's plate. So we opt for cams that have long optical zoom capability. This can be in the form of a PTZ or a varifocal cam.

There are three ways to go here. There are cams specifically designed for LPR. They are best paired with an NVR from the same brand that is capable of optimizing those special LPR functions in the cam. These are quite expensive, usually at least twice the price of the cams most here use for LPR. Of course, the applicable NVR will also be more expensive.

The second way is to use standard cams or good PTZ cams, based on the distance and therefor the zoom needed. Several folks here have used either with success. If your view is close enough for a standard 6mm or the standard varifocal (2.7-13.5mm) then one of those would be ok. If you need more zoom, then a good PTZ cam will work, but you loose the PT part of the cam and it's smart features, which is part of the reason they cost so much, since you will keep it focused at a specific place on the street.

The third way is to use a varifocal cam with more zoom capability that other folks here have used successfully. The cam that @sebastiantombs lists above has been used for several years by folks here. It has been updated a little and has a new number, IPC-HFW5241E-Z12E which is a Dahua 2MP on a 1/2.8" sensor and is a 5-60mm varifocal. I have two of these about to be installed. I have tested the locations and just waiting for the temps to drop a little to run the cables. I also have a Dahua IPC-B5442E-Z4E which is a 4MP on a 1/1.8" sensor and is a 8-32mm varifocal. I am not using this cam for LPR but rather for vehicle ID (make, model, color, identifying marks, etc.). But it does great plate caps at 60-75 feet when the plate is directly head-on.


Plates from test of IPC-HFW5241E-Z12E at 75-99 feet and 15-26 degrees set at 43mm:


Plates from B5442E-Z4E at 60-75 feet head-on set at 26mm:

 

[Jinajon]

Until you get experience with cams, I am not sure how you would decide how to make a 'covert' cam. Actually, I am not sure what you mean by 'covert'.

I have a lot of experience with designing, building, and fixing electronics and other things, but not cameras specifically.
Basically I just don't want a giant camera hanging down in your face as soon as you walk in the front or back door. I saw that Dahua have 'covert' cameras available under their 'Special Series' section and I thought "dang; that looks ideal".

The inside view of the front entrance I want:
Option A:
[image removed]
or Option B:
[image removed]

And the two options of where the camera would be positioned:
[image removed]

Not really 'hidden' as such, but not in-your-face. We're renovating the room behind the RH door, so I can easily build access to behind the door pillar now, and I can access the other position from in the attic.

Very nice plate captures @samplenhold. That's exactly what I'm after.
The best spot I can see for LPR for my place is here:
[image removed]

It would still work ok I think despite there being a camper parked a bit in the way.
I may also be able to get access to use the telephone pole in the right of the shot, but still waiting on permission for that.

 

[mat200]

I have a lot of experience with designing, building, and fixing electronics and other things, but not cameras specifically.
Basically I just don't want a giant camera hanging down in your face as soon as you walk in the front or back door. I saw that Dahua have 'covert' cameras available under their 'Special Series' section and I thought "dang; that looks ideal".

The inside view of the front entrance I want:
Option A:
View attachment 73011
or Option B:
View attachment 73012
And the two options of where the camera would be positioned:
View attachment 73013
Not really 'hidden' as such, but not in-your-face. We're renovating the room behind the RH door, so I can easily build access to behind the door pillar now, and I can access the other position from in the attic.

Very nice plate captures @samplenhold. That's exactly what I'm after.
The best spot I can see for LPR for my place is here:
View attachment 73025
It would still work ok I think despite there being a camper parked a bit in the way.
I may also be able to get access to use the telephone pole in the right of the shot, but still waiting on permission for that.

Hi @Jinajon

I originally was also looking for a smaller camera by the front door, and after significant searching found that the best option was the mini-dome wedge model from Dahua.

This is perhaps the smallest version which does well enough for image capture.

Do search the threads here on the topic, here's one thread to get you started on it:

Sanity Check for Dahua Mini Wedge Height at Front Door with stairs

Before I stark knocking holes in the brick mortar, I wanted to run this by the experts. I’ve read the cliff notes a a few times and realize I need to keep the camera near eye level. The issue is that I’ve got about 3’ of stairs to contend with. 2’ above the front door landing level gives me a...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[samplenhold]

Basically I just don't want a giant camera hanging down in your face as soon as you walk in the front or back door

I have three Dahua 'mini-wedge' cams at my front door looking through the side windows. I have seen threads here where people put them in decretive art designs on the wall or painted them the same color as the wall. They are not very big. They are the IPC-HDBW4231FP-AS. I bought these in Jan 2019. They are 2MP on 1/2.8" sensor, fixed lens. They come in 2.8, 3.6, and 6mm lenses. There is a newer version that is 4MP but I have no experience with that model. However, I may get one or two to replace certain indoor cams. These are the 3.6mm lens and since they are mounted behind glass, I have turned off the IR and use it in color full time. I have plenty of light on the porch. You could consider mounting it on the wall just at face height or a little higher, kind of where I put the blue circle:



So this is the IPC-HDBW4231FP-AS:


Mounted at my front door:

Cap from upper cam:

It would still work ok I think despite there being a camper parked a bit in the way.

You do not have much room to grab a plate there. With any kind of speed, you might get one or two frames with a plate in it. If either of those vehicles inch a little closer to each other, all bets are off. That is why I suggest using a varifocal cam on a test rig to see if you get plates. Another problem you will probably have is IR reflection at night from those other vehicles.

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

If have good budget, can use an APNR camera IPC-HFW7442H-Z

 

[Jinajon]

Nice! That mini-wedge looks not too bad. I'd just need to convince the other half to ruin our fancy wallpaper...

The IPC-HDBW4231FP-AS has a similar lens and sensor to IPC-HDBW2431F-AS-S2 (the 4MP version of the mini wedge) - surely I'd get a similar image? From looking through the spec sheets, their DORIs are almost identical. I would gain a lot of aesthetical points by using the 30mm dia covert model though.

You do not have much room to grab a plate there.

No ... no I don't, especially at 40-50kph. And IR reflection is a good point I have no experience with. If that camper wasn't parked there I'd have plenty of room, but it's been there for a week or so now. Mounting a dedicated LPR camera about 4-5m up the telephone pole is now an option as of this afternoon. That would easily get me above any parked vehicles, and give me a 5-6° angle to plates about 40m away.

If have good budget, can use an APNR camera IPC-HFW7442H-Z

I'm not sure how far I can stretch that budget Andy ... Thanks for the recommendation though - if this project works out, then my parents want to upgrade their analogue system, and they looked seriously at ANPR several years ago to help out the local police.
Would I need to use an NVR to get the proper ANPR abilities out of the IPC-HFW7442H-Z, or can it operate with Blue Iris?

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

This IPC-HDBW4231F-AS one replaced by this IPC-HDBW3241F-AS-M , our model is IPC-E3241F-AS-M.

-https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000921632149.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.10.6ccb775d2SQkkG

Would I need to use an NVR to get the proper ANPR abilities out of the IPC-HFW7442H-Z , yes, the AI and ANPR best work with e 5 series smart NVR.

 

[Jinajon]

Just read this thread on the IPC-HFW7442H-Z for ANPR - I'm very impressed (of course). Even if I do not use it for this project, that is exactly what my parents need for their upgrade.
If I went for the 8MP version instead of the 4MP version, what would that gain me @EMPIRETECANDY? With decent IR illumination on both, I'm assuming the night ANPR image is going to be on par with the 4MP version?

 

[looney2ns]

Just read this thread on the IPC-HFW7442H-Z for ANPR - I'm very impressed (of course). Even if I do not use it for this project, that is exactly what my parents need for their upgrade.
If I went for the 8MP version instead of the 4MP version, what would that gain me @EMPIRETECANDY? With decent IR illumination on both, I'm assuming the night ANPR image is going to be on par with the 4MP version?

Don't chase megapixels. The 8mp cam will not do nearly as well after dark as the 4mp.
Review-Dahua IPC-HFW7842HP-Z AI, ANPR Ultra 8MP Varifocal Starlight Cam | IP Cam Talk

 

[Jinajon]

Many thanks to everyone who has given their opinions and helped me with this - I really appreciate it

I ended up buying an NVR and four cameras (since buying a single camera and working upwards from there with wasn't an option unfortunately).
NVR5216-16P-4KS2E
IPC-HDW3841T-ZAS (Vari-focal, 8MP IR)
IPC-HDW5442T-ZE (Vari-focal, 4MP IR)
IPC-HUM8431-E1 and IPC-HUM8431-L3 kit (Covert kit, 4MP)
IPC-HFW7442H-Z4 (ANPR, 4MP)

I did end up buying an ANPR, which is jumping in the deep end a little, but after getting access to the telephone pole at the end of my driveway, I thought; "in for a penny, in for a pound".
Some of the cameras arrived yesterday (thanks Andy!) but the NVR and one camera got lost in the post ... luckily they were found after a couple of days, and they should hopefully arrive on Monday.

I've run half of the wiring and will finish it when I get the camera positions settled.

 

[Wombat]

Are the IPC-E3241F-AS-M from Andy still the best go to as far as wedge mini domes go for a protected front porch area by front door. No direct sun for reflections. Or is there now a better option? The area to cover porch wise is on 5’6” sq the opens to yard. Will 2.8 be best option?

 

[EMPIRETECANDY]

Are the IPC-E3241F-AS-M from Andy still the best go to as far as wedge mini domes go for a protected front porch area by front door. No direct sun for reflections. Or is there now a better option? The area to cover porch wise is on 5’6” sq the opens to yard. Will 2.8 be best option?

yes, this one replace the IPC-HDBW4231F-AS, i will invite @looney2ns to make a review on this small edge one, it's the time to replace his old IPC-HDBW4231F-AS
If your place has good light, then use IPC-E3541F-AS-M 2.8mm or 3.6mm. 5mp

 

[samplenhold]

Will 2.8 be best option?

You really can't tell without testing it. When I decided on which lens to use for my front door, I used a varifocal cam to test different positions and FOV. I ended up with the 3.6mm. Here is a sample.

 

[Wombat]

yes, this one replace the IPC-HDBW4231F-AS, i will invite @looney2ns to make a review on this small edge one, it's the time to replace his old IPC-HDBW4231F-AS
If your place has good light, then use IPC-E3541F-AS-M 2.8mm or 3.6mm. 5mp

Yes. I hope @looney2ns will accept your invite

 

[Wombat]

You really can't tell without testing it. When I decided on which lens to use for my front door, I used a varifocal cam to test different positions and FOV. I ended up with the 3.6mm. Here is a sample.

View attachment 74626

Yeah your front layout is pretty much the same as mine. 3.6 looks good but you’re right, I’ll test it first