New user trying to figure out an affordable POE-based Blue Iris system that doesn't use companies like Dahua, Hikvision or Reolink

[ipcdal]

Hi guys -- totally new here (although I've been reading/learning for a while) and also totally new to POE cameras in general, and I currently have a lousy Wifi Nest system which I want to trash as I move over to a home-based Blue Iris machine running on a decent little core i5 computer (I've double-checked the specs, they should be fine for Blue Iris).

Problem is, I can't find any cheap/affordable POE cameras that are not associated with companies like Dahua, Reolink, Hikvision, etc.... I don't want to get political, and I respect that people have different reasons for using different brands of cameras, and I know it's a hotly debated issue, but basically I've ruled out Dahua and Hikvision cameras for my own personal ethical reasons, and I've ruled out Reolink due to the very bad reputation they have here in this forum.

So where does that leave me? Dahua and Hikvision seem to dominate the OEM supply chain so that excludes tons of other options too, and then of course non-Dahua companies like Reolink seem to have a terrible reputation here, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if Reolink also has issues like Dahua but doesn't yet have the visibility/scrutiny in the market.

At this point I just need some affordable POE cameras for a "consumer" installation and I've read lots of forum posts and recommendations, lots of articles, and then when I do any research on the recommended cameras, they're either way too expensive (i.e. commercial grade) or they are associated with companies that I don't want to buy from.

My specs are really low-end simple: I need some decent POE indoor and outdoor cameras that work perfectly with Blue Iris and that don't come with the baggage of the above brands. At this point I'll even settle for lower quality images TBH. I just need to get a basic POE Blue Iris system up and running ASAP and I don't mind even 1080p at this point, and then I can add higher-res cameras in the future as I can afford them. I don't need to recognize license plates or get "the best" night vision. But I just need a reliable, affordable, simple set of POE cameras that will work great with Blue Iris. I'm coming from a much-disliked cloud based solution (Nest) so anything will be an upgrade TBH.

I don't want to use Wifi cameras since this forum has indicated how unreliable they can be. So I already invested in some new POE switches and also just went through the learning curve of how to set up a VLAN, etc... and I just set up a computer for Blue Iris, ready to go... and I realize I need to lock down the cameras no matter who makes them onto their own restricted VLAN, but I still don't have any cameras!

Thanks for any recommendations. I'm genuinely confused and I've already canceled several orders with Amazon as I do my research. I've canceled orders that had Reolink cameras (once I read about the terrible reputation here), an order of Amcrest cameras (once I found out they are basically Dahuas), etc., etc. I even canceled an order for Wyze Wifi cameras once I decided I wanted to stick with POE, which I was convinced to do in this forum. So at my current success rate I will have exactly ZERO cameras to connect to my Blue Iris machine any time soon.

 

[mat200]

Hi guys -- totally new here (although I've been reading/learning for a while) and also totally new to POE cameras in general, and I currently have a lousy Wifi Nest system which I want to trash as I move over to a home-based Blue Iris machine running on a decent little core i5 computer (I've double-checked the specs, they should be fine for Blue Iris).

Problem is, I can't find any cheap/affordable POE cameras that are not associated with companies like Dahua, Reolink, Hikvision, etc.... I don't want to get political, and I respect that people have different reasons for using different brands of cameras, and I know it's a hotly debated issue, but basically I've ruled out Dahua and Hikvision cameras for my own personal ethical reasons, and I've ruled out Reolink due to the very bad reputation they have here in this forum.

So where does that leave me? Dahua and Hikvision seem to dominate the OEM supply chain so that excludes tons of other options too, and then of course non-Dahua companies like Reolink seem to have a terrible reputation here, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if Reolink also has issues like Dahua but doesn't yet have the visibility/scrutiny in the market.

At this point I just need some affordable POE cameras for a "consumer" installation and I've read lots of forum posts and recommendations, lots of articles, and then when I do any research on the recommended cameras, they're either way too expensive (i.e. commercial grade) or they are associated with companies that I don't want to buy from.

My specs are really low-end simple: I need some decent POE indoor and outdoor cameras that work perfectly with Blue Iris and that don't come with the baggage of the above brands. At this point I'll even settle for lower quality images TBH. I just need to get a basic POE Blue Iris system up and running ASAP and I don't mind even 1080p at this point, and then I can add higher-res cameras in the future as I can afford them. I don't need to recognize license plates or get "the best" night vision. But I just need a reliable, affordable, simple set of POE cameras that will work great with Blue Iris. I'm coming from a much-disliked cloud based solution (Nest) so anything will be an upgrade TBH.

I don't want to use Wifi cameras since this forum has indicated how unreliable they can be. So I already invested in some new POE switches and also just went through the learning curve of how to set up a VLAN, etc... and I just set up a computer for Blue Iris, ready to go... and I realize I need to lock down the cameras no matter who makes them onto their own restricted VLAN, but I still don't have any cameras!

Thanks for any recommendations. I'm genuinely confused and I've already canceled several orders with Amazon as I do my research. I've canceled orders that had Reolink cameras (once I read about the terrible reputation here), an order of Amcrest cameras (once I found out they are basically Dahuas), etc., etc. I even canceled an order for Wyze Wifi cameras once I decided I wanted to stick with POE, which I was convinced to do in this forum. So at my current success rate I will have exactly ZERO cameras to connect to my Blue Iris machine any time soon.

Hi @ipcdal

Check out Nelly's Security, the are one of the approved vendors here and iirc they now carry another IP PoE OEM other than Hikvision or Dahua.

They should also have some deals during the Black Friday session

 

[wittaj]

Good luck with that....

The lower end the camera, the more likelihood that it phones "home" (to China) or needs access to the internet or it is cloud based.

 

[ipcdal]

@mat200 thank you, will check them out!

Are there any brands/models in particular you recommend?

 

[ipcdal]

Good luck with that....

The lower end the camera, the more likelihood that it phones "home" (to China) or needs access to the internet or it is cloud based.

Yeah, I realize I may have to reassess my budget and redefine what "affordable" means. So I guess I need to clarify that I need to get "The most affordable possible" given the fact that I've ruled out pretty much all the cheap ones...

But yes, I do NOT want a camera that I have to fight as it phones home to China or anywhere else for that matter. I know I can block it in my VLAN but I also don't want to be paranoid that I accidentally might have screwed up my firewall rules and allowed one of these cameras to become a security nightmare for me. And then there's the larger ethical concerns I have too, but I don't want to make this thread political. I just need to find some darn cameras and I feel literally lost.

 

[wittaj]

See if the man that started these threads can give you some advice....

US President Signs Bill Into Law Requiring FCC To Ban Further Authorizations of Dahua and Hikvision

See; Bill Signed: H.R. 3919 | The White House and Text - H.R.3919 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Secure Equipment Act of 2021 H.R. 3919, the “Secure Equipment Act of 2021,” which requires the Federal Communications Commission to adopt rules clarifying that it will no longer review or approve any...

ipcamtalk.com

Best Buy, Home Depot and Lowes Drop Dahua Lorex Oct 25, 2021 - IPVM and TechCrunch reports

Best Buy, Home Depot and Lowes Drop Dahua Lorex By IPVM Team, Published Oct 25, 2021, 11:02am EDT Best Buy, Home Depot, and Lowe's dropped Lorex (Dahua) products after IPVM and TechCrunch reached out to the retailers about them selling products from a manufacturer deemed a threat to US national...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[Gargoile]

If you set up your system as a stand alone network, then there is no need to worry about the cameras calling home to the mothership. And as a bonus you don't have to worry about having your entire Blue Iris system exposed to the internet where people can see whats going on in your home too.

 

[wittaj]

If you set up your system as a stand alone network, then there is no need to worry about the cameras calling home to the mothership. And as a bonus you don't have to worry about having your entire Blue Iris system exposed to the internet where people can see whats going on in your home too.

True, but it doesn't work if the cameras are cloud or proprietary based and need the internet to work.

It is clear the OP is going to isolate the cameras and not have internet access, the OP just has to decide at what cost and if any manufacturers out there exist that line up completely with his ethical stance - and that part might be the hardest part...I doubt a company doesn't exist that doesn't align with every value and ethical standard of someone. They either donate to politicians you don't agree with, source their materials from a country you don't agree with, etc.

 

[ipcdal]

See if the man that started these threads can give you some advice....

I read those threads during my research, and I was hoping not to wade into the political aspect of this query. It's a tough discussion, lots of issues, I get it, and I understand that there are people with many different perspectives. For me, I just decided after some pondering that I would avoid brands like that for personal reasons, and search for alternatives. But I definitely acknowledge there are different opinions.

Anyway, thank you, perhaps you and/or @wittaj will have some suggestions, and I'm looking for any suggestions meeting the humble specs I posted, but also just trying to stay out of the political side of it.

 

[Gargoile]

They either donate to politicians you don't agree with, source their materials from a country you don't agree with, etc.

Why stop at the cameras? What about the wiring, connectors, nuts, bolts, and screws? Is it OK if they are made in China?

 

[ipcdal]

If you set up your system as a stand alone network, then there is no need to worry about the cameras calling home to the mothership. And as a bonus you don't have to worry about having your entire Blue Iris system exposed to the internet where people can see whats going on in your home too.

The way I have things planned is that the firewall won't allow any devices on my camera VLAN to talk to the Internet except for the Blue Iris machine, which I'm leaving connected to the Internet so it can get Windows updates, etc... and I may want to access it via VPN. It's possible I may lock the Blue Iris machine out of the Internet too, except occasionally for updates. But yes, in general, my network will be "semi-isolated" if that's a real term. I'm totally open to reconsider that though, and I'm still learning the ropes of my firewall, so I will be a little on the conservative side until I get the hang of it.

In any case, besides the cameras phoning home, I do have personal ethical reasons for not using the brands I mentioned, and those are important to me, whether or not the products themselves are blocked from the Internet and from phoning home, or even if the products themselves might be the "best" in terms of specs and value on the market.

 

[wittaj]

Why stop at the cameras? What about the wiring, connectors, nuts, bolts, and screws? Is it OK if they are made in China?

Or clothing LOL. What about Nike and other clothing lines for human rights issues? Is LeBron going to give up his millions in endorsement deals because the gear he is hawking is made by humans living in worse conditions than the very people here in the USA he says are being wronged...

The fact of the matter is probably every company is involved with something that we personally don't like.

Whether it be Nike, Amazon, Google, Apple, Walmart, etc., they are participate in various forms of deplorable working conditions in factories overseas paying them next to nothing. And that doesn't even touch on the wokeness aspect and other agendas many follow.

The only way to avoid it is to grow your own food and make your own clothing and furniture and build your house and don't drive a car and do not buy anything from anywhere. You either make it yourself with the materials around you or you go without.

Kinda hard to do. So do we boycott all or none? If we boycott only a few, which ones and why those and not another? Do I boycott Nike but not Dahua? Someone else may boycott Dahua but not Nike.

So where you draw the line is your personal choice.

 

[Gargoile]

The way I have things planned is that the firewall won't allow any devices on my camera VLAN to talk to the Internet except for the Blue Iris machine, which I'm leaving connected to the Internet so it can get Windows updates, etc... and I may want to access it via VPN. It's possible I may lock the Blue Iris machine out of the Internet too, except occasionally for updates. But yes, in general, my network will be "semi-isolated" if that's a real term. I'm totally open to reconsider that though, and I'm still learning the ropes of my firewall, so I will be a little on the conservative side until I get the hang of it.

In any case, besides the cameras phoning home, I do have personal ethical reasons for not using the brands I mentioned, and those are important to me, whether or not the products themselves are blocked from the Internet and from phoning home, or even if the products themselves might be the "best" in terms of specs and value on the market.

I respect you for your choice in doing you set up this way. It will be a challenge. The words "Made in America" and "affordable" don't always go hand in hand.

 

[wittaj]

One company makes a lot of cameras for different brands...and this list may have grown since 2019....

 

[ipcdal]

...the OP just has to decide at what cost and if any manufacturers out there exist that line up completely with his ethical stance - and that part might be the hardest part...I doubt a company doesn't exist that doesn't align with every value and ethical standard of someone. They either donate to politicians you don't agree with, source their materials from a country you don't agree with, etc.

Right, there is no company that I might agree with 100% ethically. Agreed completely on that. There is always going to be something ethically unsavory or objectionable about most (if not all) of the big tech companies out there today, one way or another, and I'm guessing we'd agree in general about that. For me, it comes down to what is the threshold I'm willing to live with, as life in general is not so black and white but rather a whole lot of gray as we all know, and we all have to decide what we're comfortable with.

Without getting into the politics, this isn't about Chinese companies in general. Two of the companies mentioned (Dahua and Hikvision) produce well-reviewed products as I've read about in these and other forums, and they are the OEMs of many other recommended brands out there too, so they are obvious good starter choices for someone like me, however, they've both been involved in some things that I personally find have crossed the threshhold for me ethically, and I decided I would pass on them and choose another brand. This is a personal decision, and again I am avoiding a politcal discussion, and I respect that good people can have different opinions about such things. Nothing against anyone that is a proponent of those two brands and their OEM partners. I also acknowledge it's a complex issue, so there's no criticism of anyone who is a Dahua or Hikvision user or fan.

As for Reolink and similar brands, I decided not to go for them mainly because of the general and almost universal bad reviews in this forum. I figured I wouldn't waste my time on brands like that, and just try to find a brand that is in closer alignment with what I need. Not an easy task!

Hope that all makes sense and absolutely nothing personal. And thank you again for taking the time to help!

 

[wittaj]

Hopefully you find it. If you read those other threads I linked, when members asked the OP of those threads which cameras would he recommend, well it pretty much went radio silent.

Everything is a compromise and with enough research, you will either find one that checks off most the boxes for you; none do so you take the lesser of all the evils, or you go without.

At least you are not considering some of the true junk ones!

 

[ipcdal]

Why stop at the cameras? What about the wiring, connectors, nuts, bolts, and screws? Is it OK if they are made in China?

Yep, indeed. I've had a lot of time recently to reassess my consumer habits and recognize that there are ethical decisions that I've been avoiding for many years. In any case, again, not being political here, I personally believe -- probably like most folks here -- that there is a lot of gray in life, and not so much black and white. And we all have the freedom to choose what level of gray we are comfortable with.

And for clarification, this is not about China in general. If I had to rule out every Chinese-made product, I'd be operating a pretty low-tech life. We've all become very reliant on the current supply chain of tech and manufacturing. A big discussion that exceeds the dimensions of this little thread! And living with far less tech is a choice I've considered, lol, but at least for now I've decided to live with a little gray area, and I try to do research on each company I buy from and see what kind of track record they have. There are good people all over the world, in every country of course, but there are some companies that cross the line for me, personally. Hope that clarifies a little at least on my perspective of what I'm trying to do with my camera purchase decision.

 

[icpilot]

The way I have things planned is that the firewall won't allow any devices on my camera VLAN to talk to the Internet except for the Blue Iris machine, which I'm leaving connected to the Internet so it can get Windows updates, etc... and I may want to access it via VPN. It's possible I may lock the Blue Iris machine out of the Internet too, except occasionally for updates. But yes, in general, my network will be "semi-isolated" if that's a real term. I'm totally open to reconsider that though, and I'm still learning the ropes of my firewall, so I will be a little on the conservative side until I get the hang of it.

In any case, besides the cameras phoning home, I do have personal ethical reasons for not using the brands I mentioned, and those are important to me, whether or not the products themselves are blocked from the Internet and from phoning home, or even if the products themselves might be the "best" in terms of specs and value on the market.

Your choices are limited. Another member already pointed you to Nelly's Security. They have a section of their website dedicated to "NDAA Compliant" products. Link is here -> Shop Security Cameras, Recorders & Complete Systems

Be aware that many MANY other tech devices have serious security risks. I mentioned one recently in another post. If you have Synology equipment, be sure to read their Terms of Service and Privacy Policies. They are far more intrusive than Hik or Dahua, but since they are Taiwanese, apparently US authorities are unconcerned about those intrusions. Just one example, of hundreds.

 

[ipcdal]

Hopefully you find it. If you read those other threads I linked, when members asked the OP of those threads which cameras would he recommend, well it pretty much went radio silent.

Everything is a compromise and with enough research, you will either find one that checks off most the boxes for you; none do so you take the lesser of all the evils, or you go without.

At least you are not considering some of the true junk ones!

Thank you, yes, those threads are part of the reason I decided to start this thread, instead of just reading and lurking. I just had no idea how difficult it would be to find something that meets my personal specs. But this thread has already been very helpful!

 

[ipcdal]

Your choices are limited. Another member already pointed you to Nelly's Security. They have a section of their website dedicated to "NDAA Compliant" products. Link is here -> Shop Security Cameras, Recorders & Complete Systems

Be aware that many MANY other tech devices have serious security risks. I mentioned one recently in another post. If you have Synology equipment, be sure to read their Terms of Service and Privacy Policies. They are far more intrusive than Hik or Dahua, but since they are Taiwanese, apparently US authorities are unconcerned about those intrusions. Just one example, of hundreds.

Yes, those NDAA compliant ones look like a possibility for me. I'll be calling Nelly's this week and asking them for info/suggestions too. The NDAA ones look a little pricey for me, but maybe that's what I'm stuck with. They've obviously been dealing with this so they might have some other recommendations too.

As for Synology, I have been using Synology for several years, and have become dependent on them unfortunately, and I have read their Terms of Service and Privacy Policies and in recent months I've started to migrate away from them (via building a custom file server to eventually move everything to).

BTW, ethically, Synology hasn't crossed any big lines that I've seen so far, and as you mentioned Taiwan is not China, which is a different situation in terms of government control, and then in terms of security, they've been fairly decent, as long as you don't open up a bunch of ports and start using their cloud services, then all bets are off IMO. But if you run a tight Synology NAS, then they have been okay so far in my experience. But yes, you are totally right that as they start offering all these extra cloud services (including their new hybrid/C2 stuff in DSM 7), I saw the writing on the wall and I am slowly migrating away from them.