Noob with retail shops - which cams??

[houseofvape]

Hi guys,

Noob here. I have two retail shops and I’m tired of having shitty cameras.

First I had Lorex cameras and DVR, but the user interface was just so horrible. The resolution/detail was not great, either.

We were recently burglarized and my ADT security system failed to trigger, so I switched to Simplisafe. I used the opportunity to test out the Simplisafe cameras. While they are better quality than the Lorex cameras, they are still unacceptable for me. Additionally, cloud based storage and motion event recordings just don’t cut it for my application.

I have decided to finally bite the bullet and move to a stand-alone NVR setup with IP cameras. I have read some of the Wiki and went with this refurbished Dell from eBay…

Dell OptiPlex 3040 SFF Intel i7 8GB RAM 240GB SSD USB VGA Win 10 B Grade Desktop | eBay

I have started to delve into the wide selection of cameras available, focusing mainly on Dahua, since I read a post on this forum that said the 5442 was the cream of the crop. I am in a bit over my head, however, and I wanted to describe my situation to you guys and see what camera(s) you suggest.

My shops aren’t huge - one is 1200 sq ft and the other is 900 sq ft. I don’t have someone watching the cameras in real time. We are mostly reviewing the cameras after a shoplifting event to try to determine what was taken and identify the thief. For this reason, as long as I’m understanding things correctly, we need fixed lens cameras pointed as specific hotspots, as opposed to PTZ cams. At least one camera has to have a microphone, as well, in order to analyze employee/customer interactions. If the microphone is sensitive and clear enough, only one camera would have to have a mic. Otherwise, each camera would have to have a mic and I would then choose which camera to view in order to hear clear audio.

The most important thing to me, and where my cameras have always failed in the past, is digital zoom while reviewing the recorded footage. It was for this reason that I was considering a move to 4K cameras. From reading this forum, however, I realize that may not be the answer to my problem. A larger sensor that’s better at gathering light may be more important for my application. I’m still not 100% sure if I’m understanding this correctly, though, so please steer me in the right direction.

Here are a few more details to consider. I would like two of the indoor cameras to be specialized.

First, I would like one camera pointed directly at the point of sale. This camera will be roughly ten feet from where the transaction will occur. The main requirement for this camera is to be able to clearly view an ID/license that is placed on the POS countertop. I’m thinking that this most likely means it has to be a PTZ camera that is pointed/zoomed at a specific area of the countertop. Additionally, I have seen advertisements for cameras that can analyze details of a transaction with AI. This would include cash passed between the customer and employee, and well as possibly products being handled, etc.

Secondly, I want the camera facing the front door to be able to identify people coming into the shop. I don’t know how advanced this gets, but at the bare minimum I would like to be able to track the number of people who enter the shop daily. Possibly tracking repeat customers, storing information in a database, etc. I’m really not sure what functionality exists and would love to hear more about facial recognition AI features.

Whew… I think that’s it for now. Thank you in advance for all of your help!

 

[wittaj]

Welcome!

Unless you are going to spend outrageous amount of money for Hollywood movie size sensors, if you want to see things far away, you need optical zoom, digital zoom only works in the movies and TV...And the optical zoom is done real time - for a varifocal it is a set it and forget it. You cannot go to recorded video and optically zoom in later, at that point it is digital zoom, and the sensors on these cameras are so small which is why digital zoom doesn't work very well after the fact.

You have to first decide what is the purpose of the cameras - to IDENTIFY or to OBSERVE and at what distance. One camera cannot be the do all, see all.

It is simple LOL do not chase MP - do not buy a 4MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/1.8" sensor. Do not buy a 2MP camera that is anything smaller than a 1/2.8" sensor. Do not buy a 4K (8MP) camera on anything smaller than a 1/1.2" sensor. Unfortunately, most 4k cams are on the same sensor as a 2MP and thus the 2MP will kick its butt all night long as the 4k will need 4 times the light than the 2MP... 4k will do very poor at night unless you have stadium quality lighting (well a lot of lighting LOL).

To identify someone with the 2.8mm lens that you probably had in the past, someone would have to be within 13 feet of the camera, but realistically within 10 feet after you dial it in to your settings.

My neighbor was bragging to me how he only needed his four 2.8mm fixed lens cams to see his entire property and the street and his whole backyard. His car was sitting in the driveway practically touching the garage door and his video quality was useless to ID the perp not even 10 feet away.

Here are my general distance recommendations, but switch out the Dahua 5442 series camera to the equivalent 2MP on the 1/2.8" sensor or equivalent Hikvision works as well.

• 5442 fixed lens 2.8mm - anything within 10 feet of camera OR as an overview camera
• 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)
• 5442 Z4E - anything up to 80-100 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 60 feet but I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - anything from 80 feet to almost 200 feet (personally I wouldn't go past 150 feet because I like things closer)
• 5241-Z12E - for a license plate cam that you would angle up the street to get plates up to about 175 feet away, or up to 220 with additional IR.
• 49225 PTZ - great PTZ and in conjunction with an NVR or Blue Iris and the cameras above that you can use as spotter cams to point the PTZ to the correct location to compliment the fixed cams.

You need to get the correct camera for the area trying to be covered. A 2.8mm to IDENTIFY someone 40 feet away is the wrong camera regardless of how good the camera is. A 2.8mm camera to IDENTIFY someone within 10 feet is a good choice OR it is an overview camera to see something happened but not be able to identify who.

So you will need to identify the distance the camera would be from the activities you want to IDENTIFY on and purchase the correct camera for that distance as an optical zoom.

Regarding facial recognition, most of us have found in home settings that facial recognition is more gimmicky and novelty than anything else. If you have to put in 5 or 10 or 15 pictures of yourself for it to recognize it is you...then you shouldn't expect much....

Heck even in ideal situations like a business with the camera at ideal height and optimal lighting it fails.

What do you think of Dahua's "Uyghur Warnings"?

Good luck. Wish you no ill will. I'm not here to argue with people simply to contribute when and where I can. This is also followed by lending my views on current technology and how it impacts all of us. It's undisputed that splitting of the atom changed the world but once again man decided to...

ipcamtalk.com

 

[mat200]

..

First, I would like one camera pointed directly at the point of sale. This camera will be roughly ten feet from where the transaction will occur. The main requirement for this camera is to be able to clearly view an ID/license that is placed on the POS countertop. I’m thinking that this most likely means it has to be a PTZ camera that is pointed/zoomed at a specific area of the countertop. Additionally, I have seen advertisements for cameras that can analyze details of a transaction with AI. This would include cash passed between the customer and employee, and well as possibly products being handled, etc.

Secondly, I want the camera facing the front door to be able to identify people coming into the shop. I don’t know how advanced this gets, but at the bare minimum I would like to be able to track the number of people who enter the shop daily. Possibly tracking repeat customers, storing information in a database, etc. I’m really not sure what functionality exists and would love to hear more about facial recognition AI features.

Whew… I think that’s it for now. Thank you in advance for all of your help!

Welcome @houseofvape

First, I would like one camera pointed directly at the point of sale. This camera will be roughly ten feet from where the transaction will occur. The main requirement for this camera is to be able to clearly view an ID/license that is placed on the POS countertop. I’m thinking that this most likely means it has to be a PTZ camera that is pointed/zoomed at a specific area of the countertop. Additionally, I have seen advertisements for cameras that can analyze details of a transaction with AI. This would include cash passed between the customer and employee, and well as possibly products being handled, etc.

Secondly, I want the camera facing the front door to be able to identify people coming into the shop. I don’t know how advanced this gets, but at the bare minimum I would like to be able to track the number of people who enter the shop daily. Possibly tracking repeat customers, storing information in a database, etc. I’m really not sure what functionality exists and would love to hear more about facial recognition AI features.

For #2 .. see the DORI section of the cliff notes.

For #1 you need to determine the ppf density you need to see the ID/license details you wish. You can then work it out based on the DORI equation included in the cliff notes what resolution and FOV you will need give the distance from the camera to the subject ( ID ) you want an image off. You probably will need an optical zoom to catch that detail.

 

[houseofvape]

Thanks for the advice and information!

• 5442 ZE - varifocal - distances up to 40-50 feet (personally I wouldn't go past the 30 foot range but I like things closer)

So would this camera be sufficient to optically zoom in on the counter space where the ID will be placed?

IPC-HDW5442T-ZE

IPC-HDW5442T-ZE

www.dahuasecurity.com

 

[wittaj]

Yes as long as you are within that distance, but to be able to read a license set on the table, it should be a lot closer than that. Like maybe directly overhead and maybe no more than 12-15 feet.

These cameras are good, but reading something like a driver's license will be tough except for ideal situations like it sits on the counter without movement. Even then it might be tough.

I will go stand like 15 feet away from mine with my license and see if I can read it.

 

[Flintstone61]

Yes for starters. After setting it up and getting good at adjusting camera settings.
You will find out its capabilities. Does that have the built in mic?
I have the 5442AS-LED 2.8 for outdoor use. It has a good mic. I can hear the garage door opening and closing and I can hear when people crash in to the garage door. It’s a wide angle for catching any vehicle entering/exiting the property. The other camera underneath it is dedicated to catching plate numbers. Originally, being a total noob, i bought PTZ and it cant do 2 jobs. So it may take a little research to choose the right tool for the job. Or the “right right now”,camera ,,,,as technology keeps changing.

 

[houseofvape]

Yes as long as you are within that distance, but to be able to read a license set on the table, it should be a lot closer than that. Like maybe directly overhead and maybe no more than 12-15 feet.

These cameras are good, but reading something like a driver's license will be tough except for ideal situations like it sits on the counter without movement. Even then it might be tough.

I will go stand like 15 feet away from mine with my license and see if I can read it.

I just measured and it was shorter than I expected. 6.25 ft (75 inches).

 

[looney2ns]

Yes as long as you are within that distance, but to be able to read a license set on the table, it should be a lot closer than that. Like maybe directly overhead and maybe no more than 12-15 feet.

These cameras are good, but reading something like a driver's license will be tough except for ideal situations like it sits on the counter without movement. Even then it might be tough.

I will go stand like 15 feet away from mine with my license and see if I can read it.

Thanks for the advice and information!



So would this camera be sufficient to optically zoom in on the counter space where the ID will be placed?

IPC-HDW5442T-ZE

IPC-HDW5442T-ZE

www.dahuasecurity.com

It is highly recommended that you purchase one camera with a varifocal lens, and test it each proposed location for 24hrs or more to see if it will perform the functions you need.
If you aim one camera at the dirvers license, on the counter, it will need to be dedicated to just that job. Don't intend for it to see people or employees, you need another camera that.
That's one of mistakes a lot of people make, they expect one camera to cover too much area and perform to many functions.
You can always use a pole mounted from the ceiling to lower a camera to a needed height.
If you are wanting to ID faces, then no camera should be mounted any higher than 7-8ft high, otherwise, you just get the tops of heads.
By one camera and test each proposed location. Planning and proper placement is vital.
Such as this: Review-OEM Loryta IPC-T5442T-ZE Varifocal 4mp camera (Dahua) | IP Cam Talk
Check your local laws about the legality of recording audio in a public space.

 

[looney2ns]

I just measured and it was shorter than I expected. 6.25 ft (75 inches).

The camera I posted above would have no problem with reading on the counter, when properly adjusted and placed.

 

[Holbs]

Thank you for doing some research and finding things out on your own instead of just screaming "I want help, right now! But will not take anyone's advice".
Yep...5442 varifocal would fit any bill. That's always my answer for every camera recommendation question
For head counting...a possible solution to look into: ShopperTrak for business solutions. I have installed about 100 of these things and the folks that use them (Converse, Nike, AT&T cell stores, etc) really like them for their intended purposes of analytics.

A 4K camera actually may work in a constantly lighted environment. Not so in the dark.

 

[houseofvape]

Thank you for doing some research and finding things out on your own instead of just screaming "I want help, right now! But will not take anyone's advice".
Yep...5442 varifocal would fit any bill. That's always my answer for every camera recommendation question
For head counting...a possible solution to look into: ShopperTrak for business solutions. I have installed about 100 of these things and the folks that use them (Converse, Nike, AT&T cell stores, etc) really like them for their intended purposes of analytics.

A 4K camera actually may work in a constantly lighted environment. Not so in the dark.

No problem! I have purchased a IPC-T5442T-ZE, so I will see how that works out. I'm sure it will be fine with a bit of tweaking.

I have been looking into people/customer counters and came across this one in particular, which appears to be one of the more affordable solutions. Do any of you all have any experience with it (specifically the 3D Scope II LC)?

3D SCOPE II LC People Counter

Our advanced HDR sensor counting camera delivers 99% accurate foot traffic data. AI algorithms ensure precision in challenging people counting environments.

storetraffic.com

Is this something that I could accomplish with another (cheaper) camera solution and possibly Blue Iris + Deep Stack or something similar?

Thanks!
Chris

 

[Holbs]

No problem! I have purchased a IPC-T5442T-ZE, so I will see how that works out. I'm sure it will be fine with a bit of tweaking.

I have been looking into people/customer counters and came across this one in particular, which appears to be one of the more affordable solutions. Do any of you all have any experience with it (specifically the 3D Scope II LC)?

3D SCOPE II LC People Counter

Our advanced HDR sensor counting camera delivers 99% accurate foot traffic data. AI algorithms ensure precision in challenging people counting environments.

storetraffic.com

Is this something that I could accomplish with another (cheaper) camera solution and possibly Blue Iris + Deep Stack or something similar?

Thanks!
Chris

ShopperTrack is the only head counting solution I've ever done for business purposes. For this type of application, it's one thing to easily find a camera that will do the head counting. But there are aspects that go beyond than just the camera: the analytics, the reporting, the technical troubleshooting and fine tuning. For home use...I could see dabbling with head counting. However, for business...that's a tad more taken seriously and would leave this to 3rd party cloud work.
Are there alternative to ShopperTrack? I'm sure there are. Have I ever installed any others? Nope. That either tells me ShopperTrack comes highly recommended or ShopperTrack has cornered that market.
It's like saying a 20 person business has one of the employees as the IT person. Sure, he could be a great IT guy but his concentration is elsewhere than just IT. As much as I dislike 3rd party IT establishments...they do serve a purpose.

 

[looney2ns]

No problem! I have purchased a IPC-T5442T-ZE, so I will see how that works out. I'm sure it will be fine with a bit of tweaking.

I have been looking into people/customer counters and came across this one in particular, which appears to be one of the more affordable solutions. Do any of you all have any experience with it (specifically the 3D Scope II LC)?

3D SCOPE II LC People Counter

Our advanced HDR sensor counting camera delivers 99% accurate foot traffic data. AI algorithms ensure precision in challenging people counting environments.

storetraffic.com

Is this something that I could accomplish with another (cheaper) camera solution and possibly Blue Iris + Deep Stack or something similar?

Thanks!
Chris

Test it on the 5442 you have coming.
In my experience, it is fairly accurate when setup and the camera is positioned properly.
I have no experience with, but the better models of Dahua NVR's has people counting, and alogrithoms built in.
The same NVRs have a POS solution built-in.

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www.dahuasecurity.com

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[Holbs]

FYI on alternative to ShopperTrack.
Just this week... the main folks who contract us out for ShopperTrack installations these last 7 years have now swapped to something called Springboard. The folks say works better, camera is better (an actual AI dome camera with Springboard rather than the older b&w snapshot only dual-lens Shoppertrack used), pricing is better.

 

[houseofvape]

Yes as long as you are within that distance, but to be able to read a license set on the table, it should be a lot closer than that. Like maybe directly overhead and maybe no more than 12-15 feet.

These cameras are good, but reading something like a driver's license will be tough except for ideal situations like it sits on the counter without movement. Even then it might be tough.

I will go stand like 15 feet away from mine with my license and see if I can read it.

Wittaj, did you happen to test to see if you can read the license at 15 ft?

I just setup my 5442 today and am having very little luck at 10 ft, even fully zoomed in. I haven’t messed with settings much yet, though, so hopefully I will make some progress here.

Otherwise, I guess I just have to purchase a camera with more optical zoom?

 

[sebastiantombs]

I've got the bullet version of the 5442 in varifocal and the turret version as well. I can read a plat that's about 50 feet away and at a 30 degree, or so angle. At night I'd have to raise the shutter speed to read it, and have fooled around doing that, but it is still quite readable.

 

[houseofvape]

I've got the bullet version of the 5442 in varifocal and the turret version as well. I can read a plat that's about 50 feet away and at a 30 degree, or so angle. At night I'd have to raise the shutter speed to read it, and have fooled around doing that, but it is still quite readable.

How big/small is this plat?

 

[sebastiantombs]

Stock New Jersey license plate on my pick-up.

 

[houseofvape]

Stock New Jersey license plate on my pick-up.

Gotcha. I’m talking about an ID card. Quite a bit smaller and with very tiny text.

 

[Mike A.]

Out of curiosity just tried mine which is dialed in pretty well. No way you can read it at that distance. Not even at half of that. See clearly to tell that it's a license, yes. But cannot read the tiny text. Resolution just isn't good enough to see that fine of detail. I can almost make out the much larger text of "Drivers License" at the top but there's some mental interpolation involved to get even that. ; )