Pandemic threat? Anyone else concerned?

[vandyman]

With business closing permanently and and people going in debt.
The poverty is 10 times worse than the pandemic.
Poverty will hurt more people health wise, than the pandemic.
I would rather take my chances with Cov 19, then loss my home or have a heart attack.

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[David L]

With business closing permanently and and people going in debt.
The poverty is 10 times worse than the pandemic.
Poverty will hurt more people health wise, than the pandemic.
I would rather take my chances with Cov 19, then loss my home or have a heart attack.

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I think Trump said it best, "When the solution is worse than the problem"

 

[David L]

So can someone explain to me if your kids have their shots, are vaccinated, and supposedly protected, right? Then if other parents do not vaccinate their kids it is on them right?, our kids are protected. ex. Measles Am I missing something?

 

[Frankenscript]

@vandyman , as for taking your chances, just consider that we've had a quarter million dead more or less from this thing in just 8 or 9 months, despite massive lockdowns, masking, and so on. If we hadn't done those things, we would have a much higher death toll. Now that it's surging again, we have to redouble our efforts. Consider that besides the deaths, millions have had horrible illnesses that go on for weeks (frequently) or months (in some cases). So many people I talk to don't recognize how precarious the situation was back in the spring and how close to an even worse situation we got. Let's not slack off now that we're a few months away from mass vaccinations. Fortunes can be rebuilt; lives can't be recreated.

@David L I'm not sure I'm following you, but a few things to consider: vaccinations aren't perfect (measeles vaccine is very good though: ~97% effective with the full two dose regimen). Measles vaccines work when most people are vaccinated and thus even given imperfect function of the vaccine, the likelihood of someone infectious spreading it to others is low. Because measles is SO VERY infectious, in that it remains infectious suspended in air for hours (such as air in an elevator), it's important that nearly everyone be immunized. I believe the "threshold" of the population being vaccinated for the vaccine to be effective is up around 93%... any less and there are enough people to spread it, statistically. This is why most school districts require kids be up on their shots to go to public school. Some communities, both very conservative and very liberal (at both extremes) seem to foster folks that think they know better and become anti-vaxxers. This is why measles is on the upswing, in the last couple years, as laws have gotten more permissive with more exceptions.

Anyone who wants a good review of vaccinations and how they work and the herd immunity aspect should watch this episode of Nova called "Calling the Shots"

Vaccines—Calling the Shots

Examine the science behind vaccinations, the return of preventable diseases, and the risks of opting out.

www.pbs.org

As far as COVID-19, once the vaccines are determined safe (as well as the already reported initial take on effectiveness), I'll get myself and my family in line, given that it's likely the roll-out will be to high risk folks like doctors and the elderly first.

 

[David L]

@vandyman , as for taking your chances, just consider that we've had a quarter million dead more or less from this thing in just 8 or 9 months, despite massive lockdowns, masking, and so on. If we hadn't done those things, we would have a much higher death toll. Now that it's surging again, we have to redouble our efforts. Consider that besides the deaths, millions have had horrible illnesses that go on for weeks (frequently) or months (in some cases). So many people I talk to don't recognize how precarious the situation was back in the spring and how close to an even worse situation we got. Let's not slack off now that we're a few months away from mass vaccinations. Fortunes can be rebuilt; lives can't be recreated.

@David L I'm not sure I'm following you, but a few things to consider: vaccinations aren't perfect (measeles vaccine is very good though: ~97% effective with the full two dose regimen). Measles vaccines work when most people are vaccinated and thus even given imperfect function of the vaccine, the likelihood of someone infectious spreading it to others is low. Because measles is SO VERY infectious, in that it remains infectious suspended in air for hours (such as air in an elevator), it's important that nearly everyone be immunized. I believe the "threshold" of the population being vaccinated for the vaccine to be effective is up around 93%... any less and there are enough people to spread it, statistically. This is why most school districts require kids be up on their shots to go to public school. Some communities, both very conservative and very liberal (at both extremes) seem to foster folks that think they know better and become anti-vaxxers. This is why measles is on the upswing, in the last couple years, as laws have gotten more permissive with more exceptions.

Anyone who wants a good review of vaccinations and how they work and the herd immunity aspect should watch this episode of Nova called "Calling the Shots"

Vaccines—Calling the Shots

Examine the science behind vaccinations, the return of preventable diseases, and the risks of opting out.

www.pbs.org

As far as COVID-19, once the vaccines are determined safe (as well as the already reported initial take on effectiveness), I'll get myself and my family in line, given that it's likely the roll-out will be to high risk folks like doctors and the elderly first.

Thank you but I guess I am still lost. Those who are vaccinated are protected and those who are Not are only spreading it to those who are Not vaccinated and the small percentage who Are vaccinated but the vaccine does not protect them, right? No matter if it is Measles or Covid-19...

 

[Frankenscript]

Thank you but I guess I am still lost. Those who are vaccinated are protected and those who are Not are only spreading it to those who are Not vaccinated and the small percentage who Are vaccinated but the vaccine does not protect them, right? No matter if it is Measles or Covid-19...

Mostly, yes you are right. However, it's important to consider that some folks either can't take certain vaccines due to medical conditions, or who have compromised immune systems and simply won't mount an effective response. There's also the very young to be considered (too young to be vaccinated).

But mostly yes, if you are up on your shots you have little to worry about for those diseases whose vaccines are highly effective like measles and possibly the COVID-19 vaccines. Other vaccinations are a lot less effective for a number of reasons. For example, the flu vaccine is 65-70% effective in its best years. Sounds awful, but even at a midling 50% effective year, it does a whole lot to reduce the spread, reduce the severity of infections that do occur, and preserve the workforce's productivity.

 

[Frankenscript]

Meanwhile, until the vaccine is released, this from another forum should be used as guidance:

 

[fenderman]

Meanwhile, until the vaccine is released, this from another forum should be used as guidance:

View attachment 75181

lol. What a joke. Maybe of you are 65+ or have severe health issues. 250 people under 45 have died of covid alone. What a joke. The cdc numbers dont lie.

 

[Arjun]

I agree that it does sound like idiocy, but it is really difficult to believe what is right versus wrong. It really feels like the data has been tampered with deliberately. I'm not denying that this is a serious problem. I also do not take any offense over labeling my previous comment as idiocy (just depends on how it is interpreted). I think many are really beginning to doubt the reporting. Everything has been plastered by politics thus far and the media just makes it worse. Coming from a science background as well, I understand the risks associated with novel viruses. However, something just doesn't add up right. People are speculating that we are entering a new form of governance.

This is not just idiocy, it is dangerous idiocy.

Most of the country is in the middle of a serious spike in cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. And not just us, many other countries are facing spikes too. The common denominator is that the places where it was taken the least seriously in the summer and early fall are the places facing the biggest upswings, like my own state of Indiana. Places that kept a lid on things are doing relatively well.

It's not even winter yet, but it's shaping up to be a rough one.

 

[Frankenscript]

lol. What a joke. Maybe of you are 65+ or have severe health issues. 250 people under 45 have died of covid alone. What a joke. The cdc numbers dont lie.

I'm 53 and have a BMI in the 30-31 range. I'm at elevated risk. My wife is immunocompromised and is also at elevated risk, but she is a medical professional and interacts with patients as part of her job.

The CDC numbers you cite are misinterpreted. Just because there are comorbidities along with Covid doesn't mean the patient didn't die of COVID-19.

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[David L]

When I find myself losing perspective I just re-watch this...

 

[fenderman]

I'm 53 and have a BMI in the 30-31 range. I'm at elevated risk. My wife is immunocompromised and is also at elevated risk, but she is a medical professional and interacts with patients as part of her job.

The CDC numbers you cite are misinterpreted. Just because there are comorbidities along with Covid doesn't mean the patient didn't die of COVID-19.

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They are not "misinterpreted". Go READ them. They count intentional and accidental poisonings and other forms of killing as covid deaths by their own admission. Even if you count all "covid" deaths for any reason about 15k total. What a joke!!!!
Your refusal to eat right and workout is not my problem.
Pro-tip. Buy a mask with a perforated front layer and cut out the inner layers so you can breath easy and you are not attacked by the mask karens.

 

[fenderman]

COVID-19 Provisional Counts - Weekly Updates by Select Demographic and Geographic Characteristics

Tabulated data on provisional COVID-19 deaths by age, sex, race and Hispanic origin, and comorbidities. Also includes an index of state-level and county-level mortality data available for download.

www.cdc.gov

 

[David L]

I just got this in an e-mail:

We live in desperate times, don't we? Sometimes I catch myself thinking that this must be the worst time in all of history.

That’s why I was fascinated to read that one medieval historian picked the year A.D. 536 as history’s worst year. That's when a volcanic eruption in Iceland flung Europe, parts of the Middle East, and Asia into 18 months of plunging temperatures, fog so thick that the sun could not be seen, dying crops, and starvation. The Plague of Justinian followed, killing over one-third of the population of the Eastern Roman Empire.

So yes, things can get worse. Just consider our own history from the last century: the brutality of World War I, the untold numbers of military and civilians deaths of World War II, the Cold War, Vietnam and the anti-war movement that included the burning of U.S. cities and clashes with police, the assassinations of various American leaders, the struggles of the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 60s, and the Watergate scandal that caused the downfall of a president.

Sometimes in the chaos of our present crisis, we tend to forget that securing freedom and liberty requires sacrifice from every generation, including our own.

 

[David L]

View attachment 75182

COVID-19 Provisional Counts - Weekly Updates by Select Demographic and Geographic Characteristics

Tabulated data on provisional COVID-19 deaths by age, sex, race and Hispanic origin, and comorbidities. Also includes an index of state-level and county-level mortality data available for download.

www.cdc.gov

This is the one that gets me:

 

[Jessie.slimer]

Pro-tip. Buy a mask with a perforated front layer and cut out the inner layers so you can breath easy and you are not attacked by the mask karens.

Nice. Best sentence I've read in this thread so far.

 

[David L]

Nice. Best sentence I've read in this thread so far.

 

[David L]

I'm 53 and have a BMI in the 30-31 range. I'm at elevated risk. My wife is immunocompromised and is also at elevated risk, but she is a medical professional and interacts with patients as part of her job.

The CDC numbers you cite are misinterpreted. Just because there are comorbidities along with Covid doesn't mean the patient didn't die of COVID-19.

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True but doesn't mean they did either...

My wife has 3 people from her work who are fighting the mislabeling of Covid-19 on Death Certificates of their loved-ones...It definitely happens, but much like our Election results, we will never truly know how much.

 

[David L]

I know this is old but:

Metro Denver woman receives positive COVID-19 test results but says she was never tested

When a Denver metro area woman received a voicemail from the Tri-County Health Department letting her know test results were in, she was puzzled because she did not have any recent medical tests. Now, she's worried her personal information was compromised.

www.thedenverchannel.com

 

[Frankenscript]

They are not "misinterpreted". Go READ them. They count intentional and accidental poisonings and other forms of killing as covid deaths by their own admission. Even if you count all "covid" deaths for any reason about 15k total. What a joke!!!!
Your refusal to eat right and workout is not my problem.
Pro-tip. Buy a mask with a perforated front layer and cut out the inner layers so you can breath easy and you are not attacked by the mask karens.

Look, I'm very familiar with the numbers and how to read them. So let's just look at the top of the chart:



So, somewhat more than 220k people died where COVID-19 was listed on the death certificate.

Close to half of them had influenza/pneumonia listed. No surprise; COVID-19 causes pneumonia; in fact that's how it was first identified. These aren't people that had pneumonia, then were picked off by COVID, these are mostly people that got pneumonia FROM the damned virus. These people were killed by COVID.

The chronic lower respiratory disease group: these are people who by and large were just living their lives, probably walking around with inhalers. That's what chronic means... they were living with it. They got the virus and died because they were prone to stronger lung inflammation from the COVID. COVID killed them.

the ARDS group... do you know what ARDS is? It's what happens when your lungs fill with liquid due to an inflammation response due to an injury such as a virus ripping your lungs to shreds. These people died of the virus.

Respiratory failure... well, people with pneumonia and ARDS for example often die due to not being able to breathe... respiratory failure... or respiratory arrest due to their muscles giving out under the strain.... these people died of the virus.

We could keep going down the line, and most of the comorbidities listed would turn out to be effects of the disease, not other things that killed them instead of the disease doing it. For example the cancer stuff... many of those people might have eventually died due to cancer, but a lot of them were picked off by COVID. Also note the "all other conditions" at the very bottom... 114k. That's a lot. Did you come in to the hospital with a bad migraine? COVID-19 causes those. G43-909. It's in "all other conditions."

The point is, most people who die of COVID-19, and I deliberately mean OF COVID, as in, they would have lived this year just fine but then they got the virus and died... most of them will have one or more comorbidities. If you think you can subtract out those comorbidities from the top line COVID numbers to get "pure covid deaths" you are mistaken. This is a narrative I've seen over and over, and it's flat wrong. While there are a few interesting things, like the poisoning you mentioned, a lot of those will be from people who overdid it on tylenol or whatnot trying to get their fever or headache --CAUSED BY COVID--to go away. And sure, a few flat out wrong things will crop up, but these are very much in the minority.

Don't forget, for every death there are many serious cases where the patient has a horrible time of it. I've known plenty of those folks. This disease sucks.

And I do mask up... I'm pro-mask... so no cutting holes in masks for me.