Please help me with security system for an optical shop

[zero-degrees]

Well this OP has turned into a shit show.

Looks like you have your answers - not sure why we were asked, TVI it is for you sir. From the start of this OP saying you want to pay for high quality, to being happy with mid level tech and sub 1,000 (just FYI private label HIK TVI cams are on clearance for $30ish - $40ish and DVRs aren't much more.

*to clarify, I'm not justifying the crappy company that gave you a quote without ever looking at the job. That tells me they did most likely high ball your quote because they don't need your business, or they would have come out and earned your business. I'm just amazed at the comments here thinking people should do things for "cost"...

Are you saying it's typical to expect to be charged ~$1500 on a ~$1500 job to cover the installers own expenses? Because it's either that, or the NVR actually is complicated

I guess an HVAC repair man that charges $100 when he replaces a $10 fuse in 15 min isn't justified...
I guess when a plumber repipes a kitchen for remodel with $100 in pipe/parts and charges $1500 it isn't justified...
I won't waste any more time...

Bottom line - If your not certified or trained or licensed to do whatever the task is - expect to pay. You don't want to pay, do it yourself... And $1,500... depends... $1,000... I'd say so!

 

[ilan1h2020]

Wow! That wasn't really called for. Labor costs are not unlimited and there is competition after all. As I mentioned, I am willing to pay whatever it takes to purchase a high quality system. That doesn't mean that I'm willing to be taken advantage of when it comes to labor. We both know that a job like this will take 4-6 hours for a professional. Do you think his time is worth $500/hr? Based on my research I already knew that the system would cost about $1200 and I was very willing to pay an upper limit of $1200 for installation. I'm sorry that you find it offensive that I don't simply accept any wild bid for this job.

 

[fenderman]

If you want to be cheap and install TVI, at the very least ask the installer to use ethernet with TVI baluns so that in the future when you dont like the dvr or want some function that is simply not available on a tvi dvr, and are forced to switch to ip, you wont have to pay to rerun cable. Also, make sure the 850 guy is doing a clean install running the cable in the wall not some hack job.

 

[fenderman]

Wow! That wasn't really called for. Labor costs are not unlimited and there is competition after all. As I mentioned, I am willing to pay whatever it takes to purchase a high quality system. That doesn't mean that I'm willing to be taken advantage of when it comes to labor. We both know that a job like this will take 4-6 hours for a professional. Do you think his time is worth $500/hr? Based on my research I already knew that the system would cost about $1200 and I was very willing to pay an upper limit of $1200 for installation. I'm sorry that you find it offensive that I don't simply accept any wild bid for this job.

The bid is high, thats not the point. The point is that there will always be a markup. Do you bring your own parts to your auto mechanic? They mark prices up as does any service industry.
For the record a good 4 camera system does not cost anywhere near 1200. You can get it for way less.

 

[tomw]

Hi everyone,
... Cost is no object ie: I am willing to pay for the very best and reliable equipment.

Then all the comments from the OP are about cost, not quality. Get's one quote and defaults to TV. Sigh.

I gave up on this thread after that. We all should do the same.

Sad how some people ask open questions and then behave like trolls.

 

[ilan1h2020]

Then all the comments from the OP are about cost, not quality. Get's one quote and defaults to TV. Sigh.

I gave up on this thread after that. We all should do the same.

Sad how some people ask open questions and then behave like trolls.

Read the quote again: ... Cost is no object ie: I am willing to pay for the very best and reliable equipment.
It says that I am willing to pay top dollar for the very best and reliable EQUIPMENT. This means that IP or TVI, I don't want to skimp on the components. What I don't want, is outrageous labor costs. Someone who tries to charge me $2000 for a drop ceiling tiny office 4 camera installation is also someone who will continue to take advantage when things go wrong in the future. And for the poster who felt that it was normal for automechanics and HVAC people to overcharge for their parts....No way! I know exactly what the battery on my Prius should cost, the drain pan on my condensor, the paint and moulding for my walls etc etc. They can tack on another 10-20% for the convenience of purchasing it, but I'm certainly not paying double what I know the cost to be!!! I've decided to purchase the 4MP IP cameras and NVR on Amazon and shop out the project using Yelp or Craigslist for $1000. I'll probably pay more for the equipment than you guys do, but at least I will know what I'm getting.

 

[fenderman]

Read the quote again: ... Cost is no object ie: I am willing to pay for the very best and reliable equipment.
It says that I am willing to pay top dollar for the very best and reliable EQUIPMENT. This means that IP or TVI, I don't want to skimp on the components. What I don't want, is outrageous labor costs. Someone who tries to charge me $2000 for a drop ceiling tiny office 4 camera installation is also someone who will continue to take advantage when things go wrong in the future. And for the poster who felt that it was normal for automechanics and HVAC people to overcharge for their parts....No way! I know exactly what the battery on my Prius should cost, the drain pan on my condensor, the paint and moulding for my walls etc etc. They can tack on another 10-20% for the convenience of purchasing it, but I'm certainly not paying double what I know the cost to be!!! I've decided to purchase the 4MP IP cameras and NVR on Amazon and shop out the project using Yelp or Craigslist for $1000. I'll probably pay more for the equipment than you guys do, but at least I will know what I'm getting.

DO NOT buy from amazon unless you are 100 percent sure that the seller is providing US region cameras and NVR. Otherwise you are asking for problems.
You are not paying double the cost on the cameras. Amazon prices are mostly china region (no firmware upgrade no warranty or support).

 

[ilan1h2020]

[h=1]Thanks fenderman,
As far as I can see the cameras ($159) and NVR($178-$328)are Hikvision (English) and are coming from a local Los Angeles company (CCTV One or HDcamclub.com). Amazon has the identical NVR (English) but the price depends on whether it comes from China or U.S. I assume the higher priced one (U.S) will entail better tech support and easier returnability. I'm sure that installers are getting this for less than I am but I would rather spend $1000 and know what I'm getting. The last two installers I spoke to were quoting me $2000 for the same equipment. CCTV One is also giving me some recommendations for installers who will be HAPPY to install this system for $1000.[/h][h=1]camera: Hikvision DS-2CD2142FWD-I 4MP WDR Fixed Dome Network Camera US English Retail Version Home Security IP CCTV HiWatch 2.8mm[/h][h=1]NVR: HIKVISION DS-7608NI-E2/8P 8CH PoE NVR[/h]

by Hikvision

 

[fenderman]

Thanks fenderman,
As far as I can see the cameras ($159) and NVR($178-$328)are Hikvision (English) and are coming from a local Los Angeles company (CCTV One or HDcamclub.com). Amazon has the identical NVR (English) but the price depends on whether it comes from China or U.S. I assume the higher priced one (U.S) will entail better tech support and easier returnability. I'm sure that installers are getting this for less than I am but I would rather spend $1000 and know what I'm getting. The last two installers I spoke to were quoting me $2000 for the same equipment. CCTV One is also giving me some recommendations for installers who will be HAPPY to install this system for $1000.

camera: Hikvision DS-2CD2142FWD-I 4MP WDR Fixed Dome Network Camera US English Retail Version Home Security IP CCTV HiWatch 2.8mm

NVR: HIKVISION DS-7608NI-E2/8P 8CH PoE NVR



by Hikvision

English is NOT the same as US region. IF you want to save money by doing this yourself I suggest you READ the threads discussing this issue or your will be REALLY sorry.

 

[zero-degrees]

This thread is madness. @ilan1h2020 let me honestly help you... I seriously can't watch this car accident anymore. While I'm frustrated with the shit show of back and forth on quality vs price, and the thought people should do work for cost or minimal 10% markup, I need this madness to stop.

Let me be very serious for a moment and make an honest recommendation for you so this running in circles can stop. Please consider using one of this sites sponsors - Nelly's Security. They are private label HIK hardware, they are US based and US region cameras, have a full technical US support staff AND carry a great 3 year warranty. I'm listing 2.1mp hardware since thats what you had discussed earlier.

Here are 2.1mp 2.8mm domes - $129 each
http://www.nellyssecurity.com/cameras/hi-def-cameras/ip-cameras/2-mp/hikvision-2cd2120f-iw-outdoor-wifi-wireless-hd-2mp-ip-dome-security-camera.html

If you think you need a 4mm lens instead of the above 2.8 then here is that link and they are $119 each.
http://www.nellyssecurity.com/cameras/hi-def-cameras/ip-cameras/2-mp/2cd2120-i-outdoor-hd-2mp-ip-dome-security-camera-4mm.html

Now here is an 8 channel 8 port POE NVR so you can future proof things in the event you ever need to add more cameras, possibly outside for example. This is $299
http://www.nellyssecurity.com/recorders/nvrs/8-channel/hikvision-7608ni-se2-8p-8-channel-poe-plug-n-play-hi-def-nvr-recorder.html

Now here is the HD to be installed into the NVR - Its a 4TB Western Digital Purple Drive. $156 - You'll prob get 4 weeks of 24/7 recording of 4 2mp cameras with this.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822236659&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Hard+Drives-_-N82E16822236659&gclid=CPWSsPWz18oCFQEnHwoduLcPyg&gclsrc=aw.ds


*Edit - I see above you mentioned 4mp in another post - in that case here is the 4mp Cameras - I would recommend a turret if you want really nice Night Vision as it is matrix IR and will be more even coverage.
4mp Turret - $165
http://www.nellyssecurity.com/cameras/hi-def-cameras/ip-cameras/4-mp/2342wd-i-4mp-wdr-exir-turret-ip-security-camera-2-8mm.html
4mp dome if you want dome - $165
http://www.nellyssecurity.com/cameras/hi-def-cameras/ip-cameras/4-mp/2142fwd-iw-4mp-wdr-fixed-dome-ip-security-camera-2-8mm-with-built-in-wifi.html

Either way following this advice you'll be in this for around $940 - $975 (2mp) depending on your camera choice or around $1,115 - $1,125 (4mp) - Same NVR for either.

If you want to get the Cat5E cable as well here is a great source and great cable.

You will need this cable to go from your NVR location to EACH camera.
500' is $60
http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=13678
1000' is $80
http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=12757

Be CAREFUL if you try to shop cable somewhere else - assure it is Cat5e SOLID (NOT strand and sure as hell NOT CCA) The above links are quality product and I've used 1000's of feet of it. You also need to assure your quality installer off craigslist who I'm sure is licensed and buys quality products isn't using shitty CCA or Stranded cable to save money.

If you even want to consider this yourself vs hiring out here is the tool to terminate the cables - it includes 10 ends which is exactly what you will need for 4 cameras and a cable from the NVR to the router. $25
http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=8140

I'd recommend you buy more ends though just in case - here is a pack of 100 for $6
http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=7245

Above Additional crap will be around $110 total (Cable, Tools, Ends)

So you can get all the hardware and cable you need for around $1,100 - $1,300 (depending on cameras) from QUALITY trusted US sources. Please take this advice over turning to Amazon or some un-trusted companies. I am still annoyed and I don't care to see posts later about how your China region cameras got screwed up after a firmware update so PLEASE consider the above advice and links vs amazon. If you don't trust me feel free to have @fenderman or another person on this site backup or confirm my above advice. As a final side note - the dealer of your Prius battery... He marks that up more then 10-20% and I guarantee the price the HVAC guy pays for that drain pan, you pay double. At any rate, good luck, but please take the above advice.

 

[ilan1h2020]

This thread is madness. @ilan1h2020 let me honestly help you... I seriously can't watch this car accident anymore. While I'm frustrated with the shit show of back and forth on quality vs price, and the thought people should do work for cost or minimal 10% markup, I need this madness to stop.

.

Zero-degrees you are THE MAN!! Thanks so much for this invaluable advice. I saw your post just as I was going to purchase the system and immediately switched to Nelly's. I had seen Nelly's mentioned elsewhere in the forum but am now convinced. I am always amazed at the time and effort that people in forums take to help complete strangers. I really greatly appreciate your advice in this and will follow it to the letter. I will continue to post my experience with this and hopefully that will help others as well. Stay well.

P.S: does Nelly's sell drain pans and car batteries as well? :kiwi-fruit:

 

[Kawboy12R]

Cost is no object and the forum still recommends lower end Dahua/Hik class equipment? I'd probably go the same way if it were my shop but I'd at least consider calling the local Bosch or Avigilon guy if the budget was decent and the install was a good part of the price anyway. It makes camera markup a smaller chunk of the bill. The Avigilon software is truly nice and easy to use and they've got really good cameras as well. There're a few online Avigilon installers who're superior jerks which tends to put off the DIY and budget crowd though. But if you've got to ask the price, you probably don't want to afford it. $1000+ per Avigilon camera, install fees, licensing fees per camera, but after that things work great and they've got support that'll make your head spin. Avigilon software also works with Hikvision cameras if cost is partly a concern.

That being said, I'd personally do it like zero degrees advised because I'm a bit cheap. Avigilon makes more sense in large commercial environments where you need many cameras and the extra software features and support and warranty you're paying for. It's fun to spend someone else's money even if there's a diminishing rate of return for the extra dollars spent.

 

[spixel]

English is NOT the same as US region. IF you want to save money by doing this yourself I suggest you READ the threads discussing this issue or your will be REALLY sorry.

Pretty clear the products he's buying are Western Region. There's no 2142FWD-I in China and it says 'US English Retail'

The NVR is 7608NI , I means it's the international version.

 

[tomw]

Soooo...Do Nelly's do installs?

I can see this going all kinds of ways south if you're just buying the parts and then trying to get it to work when the OP is not tech. savvy. If your main concern is the install price, just call an installer and bargain on the price of the cams and install using your new found knowledge.

Going half and half will leave you with finger pointing.

And as for making your own cables, I look forward to that bundle of fun Oh, by the way, you should never terminate solid core with RJ45 (8P8C)...the wires break with intsert/removal cycles.

 

[spixel]

Soooo...Do Nelly's do installs?

I can see this going all kinds of ways south if you're just buying the parts and then trying to get it to work when the OP is not tech. savvy. If your main concern is the install price, just call an installer and bargain on the price of the cams and install using your new found knowledge.

Going half and half will leave you with finger pointing.

And as for making your own cables, I look forward to that bundle of fun Oh, by the way, you should never terminate solid core with RJ45 (8P8C)...the wires break with intsert/removal cycles.

Solid core is not meant to be moved anyway, so why do you have to worry about insert/removal cycles? Btw, there are rj45 connectors specifically for solid core cable.

 

[tomw]

You can also run cat cable in parallel with power cables, but you shouldn't.
You can buy brake fluid and Chlorine and mix them...but you shouldn't. Get the idea.

So, if you are looking for something that will work and last, do it right. Terminate the solid core with the correct punchdown jacks....or just let the professionals do what they are trained to do.

 

[spixel]

You can also run cat cable in parallel with power cables, but you shouldn't.
You can buy brake fluid and Chlorine and mix them...but you shouldn't. Get the idea.

So, if you are looking for something that will work and last, do it right. Terminate the solid core with the correct punchdown jacks....or just let the professionals do what they are trained to do.

Forgive my ignorance, but if you're using keystones, you'll then be using stranded cable from them to the camera, and to the nvr? I thought stranded cable is not suitable for PoE.

 

[tomw]

The premade patch cables are short. It's fine.

 

[zero-degrees]

Let's clear up a little confusion and assure we don't confuse the OP any more now that he's headed down the track HE wants to go.

@Kawboy12R - Price did become a point and the OP for the needs of this work will be fine with entry level hardware - but your right, spending someone elses money to play with some toys is always fun

@spixel - You are assuming a lot seeing that they product was coming from an unauthorized gray market seller. So, assuming it is in fact a Western Region camera it will still be difficult to get warranty coverage should something go wrong since it was NOT purchased from an authorized reseller. Furthermore the only way to honestly know is to get a S/N as sometimes US models are referenced in a listing because in the sellers eyes once its modified with English Firmware that's what it is "comparable" to, bottom line - Don't blindly assume... As for stranded cable - its fine for short runs in patch panel environments. Standards say nothing over 100', however most companies don't sell premade over 25', should you make stranded cables you have to assure you are using the proper stranded connectors to help reduce the chance of shorts. Its just easier and much safer to always use solid core when making your own especially when pulling distances for camera runs.

@tomw - agree on the install part, however this is the route the OP wanted to go, so vs. watching him purchase equipment that most likely will cause issues later on (gray market), at this point he has a link to a solid/reputable US seller. Also using an NVR with POE ports built in eliminates the need of punch down blocks and the need to be removing cables or changing things around... The point in this hardware is to run one cable from point (A) the NVR to point (B) the camera then leave it and forget it. This isn't a comm closet room with a rack where you are moving ports monthly, there shouldn't be a concern with connectors "breaking"... Introducing punch down blocks, keystone jacks, or any additional hardware only adds points of failure in this environment and any "professional" that would complete this install that way isn't exactly a "professional" and is adding equipment to up cost of job. Also the connectors referenced are designed for solid core - sounds like your experience with connectors breaking are because you might be using stranded connectors on solid cable.

Sorry Guys, its just obvious that the OP is very novice and as frustrating as this OP was he got a link to a reputable seller in the US and also who supports this site so its a win/win for him and the site. Lets not add additional confussion with partial facts.

 

[fenderman]

You can also run cat cable in parallel with power cables, but you shouldn't.
You can buy brake fluid and Chlorine and mix them...but you shouldn't. Get the idea.

So, if you are looking for something that will work and last, do it right. Terminate the solid core with the correct punchdown jacks....or just let the professionals do what they are trained to do.

that is not accurate. Punchdown jacks simply create attenuation and another point of failure. Terminating solid core with rj45 is actually my preferred method. Ive seen users even recommend keystone on the camera side, that is insanity.