Rural Elevated House on Stilts - Camera System Recs Needed

[Matt_FTP]

Hi Guys,

I live in a very rural neighborhood with no street lights so it is very dark. My house is also on stilts, so its sits elevated (16 feet up).

I would like an 8 channel system that is ideal for low-light conditions. My research has pointed me towards the Dahua OEM 2MP starlight models - but I was wondering if anyone else has any other recommendations?

Also, would there be an issue with mounting cameras 16 feet off the ground? I would prefer to mount them up high to prevent tampering, but I don't want to if I sacrifice video quality. If 16 feet is too high, what is the generally accepted max height?

I would like to start off with 4-6 cameras.

Does anyone have any recs for a complete system? I have no problem not buying a pre-packaged system and buying parts individually, I'm just not sure what I need for a quality set up

I'm pretty sure I need

Cameras
Cables (Pref Cat 5? I need good outdoor cables)
NVR
Hard drive
Monitor

Can anyone recommend an Ideal set up for my situation?

Appreciate it!

 

[Mr_D]

16 feet is generally too high, but the angle is more important. For example, if you had a long lens aimed at a gate 200' away, it could be fine whereas a short lens aimed at the ground 10' away would only show the tops of people's heads. How far down the stilts would you feel comfortable mounting a camera without severe risk of flooding? How big is your property and how close are the neighbors? Especially if you're out in the middle of nowhere, I'd prioritize having lots of white light, either dusk to dawn or on motion sensors over trying to do it all with onboard IR. Even the best cameras have very limited IR range. You can get IR floodlights but white light will give you the best picture.

 

[Mr_D]

Can you post any pictures of the house and/or what areas you're trying to monitor? As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[Matt_FTP]

Thanks I appreciate the responses.

The property itself isn't large, only about 1/2 Acre - or about 150 feet wide by 120 Feet Depth. Dense woods on 3 sides (back and sides) and a street on the front.

I understand what you are saying about the angle - makes perfect sense. I can mount the cameras lower, flooding is not a concern at any height really unless a major hurricane rolls through.

I have attached a drawing of the property and surroundings. The shaded area is dense forest. My closest neighbor is about 400 feet away, but I can't see their property due to the dense forest.

My priority is to monitor the street / gate (front) portion of the property, which is about 30 feet or so from my actual house. I would also like to monitor the sides / back of property as it is possible( but unlikely) for someone to sneak through the woods.

I also understand your point to providing a good white light to help with the night vision. I can mount motion detector lights on all 4 corners of the property to help with that. Is there a brand that is preferable with the best distance feature?

Let me know if you guys need more details and once again, I really appreciate the help!

 

[aristobrat]

My research has pointed me towards the Dahua OEM 2MP starlight models - but I was wondering if anyone else has any other recommendations?

In terms of the tech that makes those models so good with low-light image quality (which is the Sony STARVIS 2MP 1/2.8" back-illumination sensor), nobody's found anything better <under $300, anyway>. It's pretty much only Dahua and Hikvision that make cameras that use this tech. Consumer brands (Amcrest, Lorex, etc) don't have it yet.

IMO, Dahua offers more models with varied capabilities vs Hikvision, so to your point about buying cameras individually (vs. a kit with the same cameras), I think you'll likely wind up a better build that way. For example, some folks prefer the smaller IPC-HDBW4231F-AS mini-dome on porches/patios, the varifocal IPC-HDW5231R-ZEs turrets for areas like driveways or yards, and the IPC-HDF5231R-Z12E to be able to zoom into things 100+ feet away, like mailboxes or driveway entrances. The nice thing is that most of the popular Dahua cameras have pretty big owner view threads on here, so you can get a good feel for the model before purchasing. I think the only exception to that is the 4231 mini-dome ... it has a few smaller threads talking about it vs. a mega-thread like the others, but it's a popular and well-liked camera. A very trusted and liked forum vendor (Andy, @EMPIRETECANDY) makes ordering easy.

Nothing wrong with the Hikvision models with this tech, either. IMO, Hikvision doesn't have as many low-light models as Dahua, and it's usually been harder to find someone who sells the OEM models. The forum here (IPCT) recently started selling their brand of some Hikvision models, so that's always an option.

If you haven't already, check out the

IPVM Designer / Calculator

Using Google Maps, layout and design cameras, choosing from 10,000+ models, delivering FoV and image quality previews plus export to PDF, Powerpoint and more

ipvm.com

. Type in your address, let it pull up the Google image of your property, add a camera to the map, change the camera to a model you're interested in, position the camera on your house, then drag the little guy around and see what the image quality will be like. You might be able to use an IPC-HDW5231R-ZE zoomed in to watch the street/gate.. the calculator should let you change the zoom of Vari-focal cameras like that and see how it affects the image. If it's not enough zoom, the IPC-HDF5231R-Z5E or Z12E would be the next steps up.

x2 on @Mr_D's comments about more light. One thing to consider about motion detection light is that when they switch on, the cameras will take a few seconds to adjust to the new light. During the time it takes to adjust, video quality can really be crappy.

 

[Matt_FTP]

Thank you for your detailed response.

I played with the ipvm website but did not find the IPC-HDF5231R-Z12E model or the IPC-HDF5231R-Z5E - is there a significant improvement in the distance view ability between the IPC-HDBW4231F-AS and the IPC-HDW5231R-ZEs? 99% of what I need to monitor is less then 100 Feet, but I would like to be able to read a license plate at 50 feet or so.

I did like the IPC-HDW5231R-ZEs turrets as they seem to offer a good balance but I'm no expert. I'm thinking 4 of the IPC-HDW5231R-ZEs turrets on each corner of the house, with perhaps two of the IPC-HDBW4231F-AS for the porch and carport but not sure since they basically can offer the same viewing angle (101 vs 110 degrees) as the IPC-HDW5231R-ZEs.

I have heard of @EMPIRETECANDY and that is basically why I am here.

So lets say I get 4 IPC-HDW5231R-ZEs and 2 IPC-HDBW4231F-AS. I then need cables, a NVR, Hard Drive, and a Monitor. Does you guys have any good recs for those?

Thanks again!

 

[Mr_D]

x2 on @Mr_D's comments about more light. One thing to consider about motion detection light is that when they switch on, the cameras will take a few seconds to adjust to the new light. During the time it takes to adjust, video quality can really be crappy.

I've found that a motion sensor with a longer range will help in this situation. If they switch on while the subject is still some distance away, it'll have time to reset the exposure before they get close. I've played with some sensor lights that didn't activate until I was very close, then the light completely overexposed my face to the point where it was worse than just using IR. I have some sunforce solar motion lights (available on Amazon or some times Costco) and they'll pick up movement pretty far off. They put out a decent amount of light too. If you have (or can install) AC power for hard wired lights, then I like Hyperikon on Amazon. I've installed a couple at my parents' house and they'll throw a lot of light.

 

[Matt_FTP]

I have hardwired floodlights currently, but they are not motion sensors. I will research the Hyperikon lights. Thank you

At night, I keep all of my lights off, due to the fact that if you are driving by and don't already know my house is there, you cant really see it and will likely drive right by it.

Plus at night, the lights attract 15 million species of insects.

 

[aristobrat]

I played with the ipvm website but did not find the IPC-HDF5231R-Z12E model or the IPC-HDF5231R-Z5E

You might have better luck just typing in '4231' or '5231' into the IPVM website... then select Dahua, and it should then show you all models that have that number in the model... for me, this is easier than typing the whole model number.

is there a significant improvement in the distance view ability between the IPC-HDBW4231F-AS and the IPC-HDW5231R-ZEs?

Yes. What helps with distance viewing is lens size. The 4231 is fixed lens, 2.8mm or 3.6mm (I think). As the size of the lens increases, the width of what it sees decreases, but how clearly it sees further away from the camera increases.

Check out Dahua's spec for the 4231. You may need to click the link twice before the spec page pops up:
https://www.dahuasecurity.com/products/productDetail/3691?us

If you scoot down to the "DORI Distance" part of it specs, it shows you how far out this camera can go for detecting movement, being able to observe what's going on, how far out you can recognize someone you know, and then how far to ID someone you don't know. With the 3.6mm lens, Dahua says it can ID out to 20ft from the camera.

The 5231 vari-focal camera has a lens and you can change the focus from 2.8mm up to 13.5mm. If you zoom that camera in to where it's 13.5mm, Dahua says it can ID out to 46ft.
https://www.dahuasecurity.com/products/productDetail/14251?us

Most folks here feel that Dahua's DORI distances on the spec sheets are overly optimistic. If you can get the IVPM calculator to work, as you move the little guy around your property and sample the image quality, it should also show you a metric (near the sample picture) called "PPF" ... values of 100 or more are more realistic for being able to ID someone.

 

[Matt_FTP]

Question regarding the zooming capabilities - I'm assuming the zoom has to be done in real time correct?

In other words, 99% of the time I am just going to mount / aim these cameras in a specific direction to cover the desired surveillance area. Lets say a car or person goes by and I need to zoom in to identify. The zoom function of these cameras will only be beneficial if I am there manning the controls and zooming in? If this car or person goes by and lets say robs something from my yard, can I after the fact zoom in?

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, if I'm not going to be actively controlling the cameras due to the rural nature, short distances (<100feet) and unlikely event of anything happening, do I really need the zoom features?

Thanks guys

 

[Mr_D]

Cameras like the 5231 are designed to be zoomed to one focal length and left there. They're great when the fixed lenses like 2.8, 3.6, or 6mm aren't the exact focal length you want or 6mm is too short.

For actively zooming and panning to track a subject automatically, you'd want a PTZ camera which is usually larger and more expensive.

 

[Matt_FTP]

Understood - Thanks for clearing that up.

I think I'm leaning towards the 5231 - is there a specific variant of this model that is might be considered best for my intended use?

I've found that a motion sensor with a longer range will help in this situation. If they switch on while the subject is still some distance away, it'll have time to reset the exposure before they get close. I've played with some sensor lights that didn't activate until I was very close, then the light completely overexposed my face to the point where it was worse than just using IR. I have some sunforce solar motion lights (available on Amazon or some times Costco) and they'll pick up movement pretty far off. They put out a decent amount of light too. If you have (or can install) AC power for hard wired lights, then I like Hyperikon on Amazon. I've installed a couple at my parents' house and they'll throw a lot of light.

Cameras like the 5231 are designed to be zoomed to one focal length and left there. They're great when the fixed lenses like 2.8, 3.6, or 6mm aren't the exact focal length you want or 6mm is too short.

For actively zooming and panning to track a subject automatically, you'd want a PTZ camera which is usually larger and more expensive.

 

[aristobrat]

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, if I'm not going to be actively controlling the cameras due to the rural nature (and unlikely) event of anything happening, do I really need the zoom features?

If you really want to be able to ID someone walking through the gate that's 30ft from your house, then you'll either need to find a fix-lens model camera (like a 4231) that comes with a 12mm lens (which they don't make), or you buy a 5231 varifocal, set the zoom on it to 12mm when you install, and leave it be. This is where the IVPVM calculator can be handy... when you zoom in to higher mm, you can ID further out (yay), but the width of the image decreases (which is sometimes a boo). IMO, having the calculator show you what the image will look like is important .. you may not get as much coverage (width) as expected.

Personally, I prefer the turret version of the 5231 (second link in my previous post). I don't normally like domes outside because they make it easier for spiders to build webs across (not that turrets or bullets are immune to this, they're usually less immune). Domes usually also require more cleaning than a turret. Having said that, I do use mini-domes on my covered porches, though. For my neighborhood, bullets look too aggressive so I only have one (the 5231 Z12 model, which has a lot of zoom ... lets me ID folks 60ft from where the camera is mounted).

 

[looney2ns]

Hi Guys,

I live in a very rural neighborhood with no street lights so it is very dark. My house is also on stilts, so its sits elevated (16 feet up).

I would like an 8 channel system that is ideal for low-light conditions. My research has pointed me towards the Dahua OEM 2MP starlight models - but I was wondering if anyone else has any other recommendations?

Also, would there be an issue with mounting cameras 16 feet off the ground? I would prefer to mount them up high to prevent tampering, but I don't want to if I sacrifice video quality. If 16 feet is too high, what is the generally accepted max height?

I would like to start off with 4-6 cameras.

Does anyone have any recs for a complete system? I have no problem not buying a pre-packaged system and buying parts individually, I'm just not sure what I need for a quality set up

I'm pretty sure I need

Cameras
Cables (Pref Cat 5? I need good outdoor cables)
NVR
Hard drive
Monitor

Can anyone recommend an Ideal set up for my situation?

Appreciate it!

Welcome,
Study this: Cliff Notes
Any cam mounted over 8ft off the ground will have problems getting a facial ID.
You want to know who did it, not just what happened.

 

[slip kid]

Fully, I agree with that height mounting and IDing criteria. Mounting a camera where there's something a visitor is interested in looking at is good too. Put the camera covertly looking out from an attractive ornamental feature the eye is drawn to so you get a full-on view of the face. I built a custom Cedar plaque for my address numbers hanging from a porch light that everybody looks up at while waiting for the door to open. An actual pinhole camera behind that would be perfect, which I'll do (mounted at 5').

In some instances of neighborhoods like mine you can still ID people you see frequently and even at night with a little light. One application I witnessed was still handy so people with very little in funds can have some success starting out. The install I saw was mounted at 10 feet watching 50-120' of distance with the cheapest of tiny pinhole cameras viewing maximum area like 90 degrees of field ($20-$35) off ebay recording NTSC on a $50-$75 dvr. People have posture and identifying features, gaits, hair, walking sticks, etc.. Unknown people new to the area, you were pretty much out of luck unless it was a solicitor leaving some contact info. The system was junky enough that some vehicles makes couldn't be IDed, but people were easier because you would see them regularly. The system caught every vehicle, but not every bicycle or sometimes only short pieces of someone walking. At night it was sketchy but it was usually something.
Heard something at a certain time of day or night? Then you could run it back to see what was picked up. Sometimes it got nothing, but starting somewhere is comforting. One night at dusk with street lights coming on the owner heard a rock hit the house and noted the time so later he ran the system back to the exact time of event and saw his neighbor walking down the street seconds after the rock event. The camera wasn't covering the area where the rock would've been thrown from or hit but it did ID who did it by his slumped posture as he came into view seconds later where the camera was recording from in motion detect mode.

 

[Matt_FTP]

Thanks guys - those cliff notes were great!

I think I have narrowed down my system to below - take a look and let me know if I'm missing something other then a monitor and HDMI cable?


Cables = Cat5e/Cat6 cables RJ45

Mount type = 6 Wall Mount ( I will be mounting to concrete columns)

Cameras = 4- IPC-HDW5231R-ZE

2 IPC-HDW4231EM-ASE

NVR = Dahua 4K 16 Channel (PoE) Network Video Recorder

Hard Drive = 4.0TB WD Purple

 

[looney2ns]

Thanks guys - those cliff notes were great!

I think I have narrowed down my system to below - take a look and let me know if I'm missing something other then a monitor and HDMI cable?


Cables = Cat5e/Cat6 cables RJ45

Mount type = 6 Wall Mount ( I will be mounting to concrete columns)

Cameras = 4- IPC-HDW5231R-ZE

2 IPC-HDW4231EM-ASE

NVR = Dahua 4K 16 Channel (PoE) Network Video Recorder

Hard Drive = 4.0TB WD Purple

In place of the NVR, I'd use a dedicated PC running Blue Iris. Much more flexibility.
Choosing Hardware for Blue Iris | IP Cam Talk
You would also need a POE switch: Search results for: 'ipcampower' - Nelly's Security

 

[pozzello]

and If you really want to be able to read license plates of vehicles driving down the road in either/both directions day or night,
you will need a couple of cams with longer zoom than the HDW5231R-ZE's 12mm. consider a couple of the Z12 model
(or other cams with 50mm+ or equivalent zoom), that will let you get a better angle down the street:

 

[Matt_FTP]

On a very basic level - what is the main advantage of running a Blue Iris on a dedicated PC vs a standard NVR?

Also, what is the cost variance between the two?

Thanks

 

[Mr_D]

On a very basic level - what is the main advantage of running a Blue Iris on a dedicated PC vs a standard NVR?

Also, what is the cost variance between the two?

Thanks

Blue Iris is just a lot more flexible and configurable than an NVR. I paid about $300 for an 18 month old Dell Optiplex i5 off eBay. I added a spare SSD and a 4 TB WD Purple drive. You'd have to add the hard drive to an NVR too so that's a wash. The Blue Iris software is $60 and $10 for the mobile app. Get it directly from blueirissoftware.com as there are some scam resellers out there.