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The name is Bob

eagerbob

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Hello all,

I am new here so let’s start with a little introduction. My name is Bob and I live in the Netherlands. I have taken up the task of planning and installing a security camera system round my inlaws house. They live in a house with a large garden in a residential area with a lot of trees and greenery. The houses are big and the people are generally old. A few years ago there was a series of burglaries into their house, even when they were at home.

After the burglaries the police viewed camera images of a house in the neighborhood that was not burglarized and had camera’s installed. On one of the camera images there was a man standing in the garden looking straight into the camera. This was a burglar and he was later caught by the police. So camera's do work, both for prevention and identification.

In the meantime my inlaws had their house secured (doors and windows) and an alarm system installed which is connected to an alarm company. This has helped, but recently they had an intruder in the house when they were at home, during day time. The intruder came in through the kitchen door, which was closed but not locked while my mother in law was working in the garden. In order to deter intruders I now want to install a camera system.

I am now in the planning stage: reading and gathering information, sourcing the equipment, planning where the camera’s should go, how to wire them and so forth. This website and the documents I found here, like the Cliff Notes and some PDF’s proved to be an excellent source of information and expertise. So thank you for that. I made a small donation to support the site.

The plan so far is to install a handful of camera’s, three or four 2MP starlight varifocal turrets and one 8MP varifocal turret, wired to a POE switch which is connected to an inexpensive NVR. The NVR will be 8 channel, so that we can add an extra camera later if needed.

Now for my questions:

1.Can I setup and install a Dahua NVR and access ALL functions without a keyboard and a monitor?

2. Is using motion detection an option or is this generally not advised? To be honest continuous recording of several camera’s 24/7 seems rather pointless and a waste of disk space when nothing happens?

3. I understand that you can place a SD card in the camera as a backup, and that some NVR’s have “Automatic Network Recovery”? Is this generally considered a “must have” ?

4, on reliability: If the network is down the camera’s will stop recording, since it is POE. So I guess you need to hook the POE switch to UPS?
Also, a SD card is, AFAIK, not really good for permanent read/write operations. How long will they last, as a rule of thumb?

OK, so far for the questions.
Thanks!
Bob
 
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looney2ns

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1-Most but not all, no keyboard needed anyway in any case, just a mouse.
2-Dahua has an option called Smartplan IVS, you can draw trip wires and intrusion boxes, that are better than simple motion detection, not perfect, but better.
3-That's personal opinion, it's considered a backup, a 64gb card isn't expensive. Use a Samsung Evo Plus, and they will last a long time.
4-POE swtich, NVR, router, etc, anything connected to the cameras should be on a good UPS....always.
A 16 ch NVR is only a few dollars more than an 8.
Recording 24/7 is always a good idea, as there is always the chance that you miss something just prior to or after a motion event.

There is already a history of problems, so it would be important that if you are not within eyesight of the door....lock it everytime.
 

mat200

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Welcome eagerbob,

I got a larger UPS ( iirc 1500VA rating ) and it is the backup power for the internet, switch, and NVR w/PoE. I am getting 30-45 minutes of up time with it.
 

eagerbob

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@1: Lol, how do I use a mouse when there is no monitor attached? Anyway, I can always find a cheap VGA monitor somewhere.
@2: sounds good, will try that out (and test it).
@3: probably a good idea, yeah, also if burglars would take the NVR.
@4: I am already looking into UPS'es, the smaller ones (700VA) are €76. Above that it gets much more expensive quickly.
A 16 ch NVR is only a few dollars more than an 8. OK, but it all adds up. I will make a shopping list in Excel, to see how it compares and adds up.
When ordering abroad (China), costs are added for customs, import tax and then another 21% (VAT) is calculated over the total of itemprice, shipping/insurance and import tax. So it is tax upon tax

There is already a history of problems, so it would be important that if you are not within eyesight of the door....lock it everytime.
True, that is the thing. Question is how far you are willing to go altering your carefree daily life. Should they lock the door when they are mowing the lawn or feeding the chickens?
A fence and a dog would be the best solution, but that is not going to happen.

@mat200: thanks, if I buy a small 700VA one I should get 15-20 minutes, which is already quite long. Funny thing is that this is the reason that they are still on POTS (plain old telephone service) instead of fibre-optics for the alarm (which has a built in backupbattery) that always works, no electricity needed.

Thanks for the answers so far. I will post my shopping list later for you to shoot at.
 

trucams

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@1: Lol, how do I use a mouse when there is no monitor attached? Anyway, I can always find a cheap VGA monitor somewhere.
At some point you are going to actually want to see what was recorded I'd guess.... You do not need a monitor if you connect the NVR to a television via hdmi. If they do not have a TV, then yes, a monitor IS needed.
 

looney2ns

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@1: Lol, how do I use a mouse when there is no monitor attached? Anyway, I can always find a cheap VGA monitor somewhere.
@2: sounds good, will try that out (and test it).
@3: probably a good idea, yeah, also if burglars would take the NVR.
@4: I am already looking into UPS'es, the smaller ones (700VA) are €76. Above that it gets much more expensive quickly.
A 16 ch NVR is only a few dollars more than an 8. OK, but it all adds up. I will make a shopping list in Excel, to see how it compares and adds up.
When ordering abroad (China), costs are added for customs, import tax and then another 21% (VAT) is calculated over the total of itemprice, shipping/insurance and import tax. So it is tax upon tax

There is already a history of problems, so it would be important that if you are not within eyesight of the door....lock it everytime.
True, that is the thing. Question is how far you are willing to go altering your carefree daily life. Should they lock the door when they are mowing the lawn or feeding the chickens?
A fence and a dog would be the best solution, but that is not going to happen.

@mat200: thanks, if I buy a small 700VA one I should get 15-20 minutes, which is already quite long. Funny thing is that this is the reason that they are still on POTS (plain old telephone service) instead of fibre-optics for the alarm (which has a built in backupbattery) that always works, no electricity needed.

Thanks for the answers so far. I will post my shopping list later for you to shoot at.
If you purchase from Andy, which we all support here, he knows how to deal with the taxes and such you face.

I assumed you knew you needed a monitor and didn't need to be told. I was just pointing out that a keyboard is not needed.

The carefree life (also could be known as burying head in sand) is all well and good, but you must deal with reality that the world isn't a perfect place and do what is prudent to protect life and property.....especially after they've already had up close and personal experience with bad people. So yes, lock the door when mowing the lawn. They're choice.

Purchase the largest UPS that can be afforded.
 
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Aengus4h

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couple things I'd add here - do all NVR's have a kensington lock slot? Worth checking as my Hik 7608 doesn't, so I'm going to add one to it using one of these

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00DB49KNK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

OK they aren't impossible to get past, but any deterrent is worthwhile IMHO, esp as the NVR could have the evidence needed later on. Hence I'd not want my NVR in the main living area with the TV as that'd be a target area in a break in.

In terms of UPS, may be worth looking on ebay/local ads for used APC SmartUPS units. Here they sometimes sell cheap but no longer work - typically (>90%) just needs new batteries. So long as the seller has kept the battery leads and fuse you can simply replace with standard 12v 17-20Ah sealed lead acids of same size, way cheaper than trying to get APC original ones. For example, a SmartUPS SUA1500 would need 2 at whatever local cost in your region. You could then also add a network management card to this which is pretty handy for getting alerts of power outage etc. I've a few SUA1000 units, one with an external battery and most modified to use the 17Ah battery rather than the standard 12Ah ones. I See lately too there are now LiFePo 24v batteries around that you can use, one lightweight unit vs 2 heavy lead ones, tho they are a lot more expensive so I've not explored that option as yet, esp as I got my last batch of new 17Ah batteries dirt cheap ;-)
 

eagerbob

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If you purchase from Andy, which we all support here, he knows how to deal with the taxes and such you face.

There is no getting away from taxes. If the goods enter the country, the postservice or shipper has to declare the goods and paperwork to customs. DHL or any courier Andy uses to ship will ask money for the work involved. Then they add import tax (% depends on what it is) then 21% Value Added TAX over the total. When the courier delivers your package you'll have to pay them at the door in order to get your package.

I found an official Dahua dealer here that also sells the OEM (non branded) international versions, with 3 year warranty. Some items are about the same price (Starlight 2MP bullets HFW2231T-ZS/VFS, junction boxes) other things (Starlight 2MP turrets PC-HDW5231R-ZE) are cheaper at Andy's store, even with the extra costs and taxes added. So I might be shopping around to get the best prices.

I assumed you knew you needed a monitor and didn't need to be told. I was just pointing out that a keyboard is not needed

No I didn't, and still don't, to be honest. I figured that you used a browser to connect to the system via the network and that I could use my laptop to make the settings AND view the images, when needed. Can that be done or do I need to physically connect a monitor to the NVR?

My plan was to put the NVR neatly away in a cupboard or the basement. I have seen installations like that, see the picture (the black box is the NVR). No monitor to be seen.
nvrindekast.jpg

This also answers @Aengus4h concerns about burglars taking the NVR. If you look for a solution yourself, instead of a Kensington lock you might look into a recorder vault:
RECORDER KLUIZEN

As for closing the kitchendoor etc., like you say, it is their choice. We will talk about it but they are clever enough to decide for themselves. They have started closing the garage door all of the time ,which used to be open most of the time in the past. So that is already an improvement.

For the UPS I am undecided, not sure if we need that. Power outages are very rare. Here the powerlines go under the ground, where in other countries they go above the ground, making them more likely to break or get hit by lightning.

I am also undecided on exactly HOW I am going to do it. I guess I have to go back there and look again in detail. Now that I am a bit better informed I will probably make some adjustments to my plan.




Thanks so far for your opinions.
 
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Aengus4h

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hi Bob

fair enough if you are going to locate it in a hidden location that's best I think. You could hook it to the TV for initial setup I guess and once its got an IP and user info set up the rest can be done via the network from your laptop, at least for my Hik that worked fine for me.

In my case while the NVR is fairly hidden its getting the kensington attachment just for a little extra delay factor. I had considered adding vents to my large laptop safe and locating it in there, but then that would be not so easy being hardened steel etc. I might yet go for bolting it down onto the top of the safe tho.

As for UPS, here in the UK we don't get so many outages (underground cabling etc) but they do happen as well as power fluctuations hi/low etc. Have experienced 3 or 4 in the last 5 years, some <2min others 40+ mins, hence I've a few UPS units here to keep things like the computer farm, comms, CCTV/NVR, alarm, TV/Sky systems running, and a couple deployed to drive the cameras that are remote from these main UPS (not using PoE as I can't flood wire in this rented place so using EoP to trunk the camera feeds back to the NVR). The important cameras can use uSD cards to buffer if they lose comms so will be adding those in at some stage too. Did try WiFi to serve the remote cameras but even with just 3 it's not so reliable, probably down to the junk ISP router I was testing with but rather than waste £ on a router I don't need I'll just buy some uSD cards I think.
 

eagerbob

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After a bit of research I have my provisional shopping list ready.
Important thing for me was to not let the costs run too high, as not to scare the “customer” away of the whole plan.
So I saved where I thought possible.

This list is for our preferred China supplier only, the rest of the stuff I will buy locally.

Camera’s:
2x varifocal turret IPC-HDW5231R-ZE
2x fixed lens turret IPC-HDW4231EM-AS
1x mini dome IPC-HDBW4231E-AS

NVR
Dahua NVR4108-4KS2 8
POE switch: Dahua PFS3110-8P-96

My questions:

1. I will need waterproof junctions boxes. The chart for this is a bit intimidating. I figured the PFA130-E should work?

2. Some of the turrets will be mounted to a vertical wall, while the camera should be pointing horizontally.
Does this work or do I need a wall mount bracket like the PFB203W ? If so will I also need a junction box if the cable is not going through a hole in the wall since I see no cable exit?

3. The NVR is the cheapest one available, with a white plastic case. Is there, in terms of functionality, anything I will be missing out on? It seems to have everything I need, has 8 channels and Automatic Network Recovery and I do not need 4K since the cameras are all 2MP.

4. I was thinking of installing a WD purple 4TB in the NVR, Will this be enough? I tried some NVR calculators, with mixed results. This because some variables I just don't know. To keep the recordings for one week seems to me the bare minimum, 10-14 days preferable.

Anything else I forgot?

Cheers and have a nice weekend!
 
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looney2ns

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1-yes the pfa130-e will work.

2-Camera can be mounted direct to the wall, but you would need a 3/4" hole in the wall to push the connections into. If you use the PFB203w,
then all you need is a 1/4" for the Ethernet cable, then terminate the cable after it's installed. Then using Di-Electric grease in the Rj45 connections, and then wrap the connection with Coax Seal tape. Then you can place the connections inside the back of the wall mount as it's hollow. Recommended to use Di-electric grease in any outdoor connections. It does have a wire exit on the right side.

3-It will be fine.

4-Yes, 4 tb will handle more than 2-3 weeks easy.

20180518_133326.jpg
 

eagerbob

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OK thanks, I will order the grease and the Coax Seal Tape.

@2: that picture is helpful.
However, I would like to use pvc conduit to protect the network cable.

Not sure how to do that with this mount. I will probably still need the junction box (but not the round Dahua box) to sit underneath.

/edit/
I just start with a junction box. And connect it to the pvc pipe using a joint like in the picture:

Should I still feel the need to use a wall mount I could replace the round junction box with a regular square ip666 junction box from the local DIY:

image.jpg
 

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