What is you KW electricity cost in your region ?
- Thread starter Dodutils
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bob2701
Getting comfortable
I have had the system for 2 year and saved $600 the first year and $550 the second. Nothing shady at all, I am very happy.
So, was installation/equipment free (because you don't own any of it)? What if the cost of grid power goes down and you want to stop using the panels? I assume they are going to charge thousands to come and take it all back?
bob2701
Getting comfortable
Track record is power company rate will go up not down. Solar company rate is fixed and they do all maintenance.
That sounds like a good deal. But lets assume later on, owning your own system becomes a more affordable option than continuing to rent their equipment and service. How heavy is the bill for ending the service?
wantafastz28
Getting comfortable
It really depends on where you live... if the power company you have had a consistent trend of raising power every year or few years for the past 20-30.... It makes sense to go solar... Where I live the big push is to get it now so you are grand fathered into the prim rate hours... after July the power company is changing it in their favor....
The main problem I'm having with getting solar leases is moving.... It could be a potential deal breaker if I want to sell the house and the prospective buyer already has their own solar setup they want to transfer... I might lose that buyer... every company I talked to pushes hard to not sell out right... I'm still working on finding their profit margins to see why they are like that vs a lease.
bob2701
Getting comfortable
fenderman
Staff member
- Mar 9, 2014
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When it makes sense to go solar, then it makes sense to own the panels yourself. You collect any tax rebates and pay nothing for the electricity but your upfront cost.
If bob saved 550-650 with a twenty percent discount (.11 vs .14), he would save about 3k (maybe more if he installed better panels) per year in perpetuity. All these guys are sticking your with a high interest loan and issues when selling.
wantafastz28
Getting comfortable
The up front cost of material plus having someone to install it for me is over 30k so far and that isn't including the permits and HOA fiasco. Quite the hit unless I stay there for a while, and all that is hoping hail damage or something doesn't ruin the panels during their life.
fenderman
Staff member
- Mar 9, 2014
- 36,892
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Trust me they are not installing a 30k system on your roof...otherwise how would they make a profit?
wantafastz28
Getting comfortable
That's why I'm trying to figure out the profit margin on these lease quotes.
That was a quote from a narrow back/electrician ... the solar companies quote 50-60k for 33 panels.
nayr
IPCT Contributor
I looked at installing my own solar; but unfortunately you wont get a single tax credit if you dont contract the job out through licensed installers.. they made it a jobs program; and DIYers like us are kinda screwed.. the tax credits only offset a small portion of the labor, none of the equipment or profit.
Most people dont have the equity available in there house anymore to pull out a loan and install solar; I do but my location is so poor its not worth the expense.. solar is kinda hit/miss, largely miss.
Most people dont have the equity available in there house anymore to pull out a loan and install solar; I do but my location is so poor its not worth the expense.. solar is kinda hit/miss, largely miss.
I've got 2 separate solar systems, one the common grid tie type, and the other a battery-backed system. They're owned and I estimate breakeven will occur when they're 20 years old. (This figures in all of the tax and utility credits). If you're seriously investigating putting a system in, you have to use the information specific to your state and your utility company. The federal tax credit is the only constant, and all the other incentives vary wildly. For the past few years we have run "net zero", paying only the monthly base rate, with an 8 kW system and using electric heat somewhat sparingly.
A huge benefit I didn't see coming, with the battery-backed system, is we have a "half house" UPS system. Most of the 120 volt circuits are powered by the inverter, and the way we find out there's a power outage is when a neighbor calls to see if our power is out. No need to buy a UPS for the NVR and cameras. My state requires the utility to buy back power at the same rate they sell it. This means I'm getting the unlimited size "storage battery" and all the infrastructure for 400 amp service for free, paid for by all the non-solar customers. It's the only do-good, wealth transfer government program where I've been able to be on the winning side.
A huge benefit I didn't see coming, with the battery-backed system, is we have a "half house" UPS system. Most of the 120 volt circuits are powered by the inverter, and the way we find out there's a power outage is when a neighbor calls to see if our power is out. No need to buy a UPS for the NVR and cameras. My state requires the utility to buy back power at the same rate they sell it. This means I'm getting the unlimited size "storage battery" and all the infrastructure for 400 amp service for free, paid for by all the non-solar customers. It's the only do-good, wealth transfer government program where I've been able to be on the winning side.
- Dec 10, 2016
- 451
- 166
This is why I don't go for Solar that is far too expensive with breakeven too far away, may be with more efficient solar panels... lets say twice of actual efficiency but those panels will come on market with double price so here we are again...
But I am still trying to calculate the material/cost to put all computer stuff I have (250Wh requirement) that would run 24/24 7/7 including bad weather situation so that require extra batteries and extra panels to be able to keep power during the night and reload the batteries as soon as sun show up and it is worse when you live in a low sunny region.
And not counting that you have to clean the panels (when its on a roof of a one or two stages house... a bit dangerous) and maintain some parts.
For me something that need maintenance and have breakeven over 5-7 years it's not worth it.
alastairstevenson
Staff member
We have a 16 panel 4KW Solar PV system that cost £14k GBP 6 years ago, when the installation cost was high but falling quickly, but also when the generation feed-in tariffs (ie Government green energy subsidies) were also high, but falling quickly.
We're getting an approx 11% ROI (return on investment) over a 25 year FIT (feed-in tariff) contract.
And on most of a bright day, free electricity.
For the rest - we pay £0.146 GBP per kWh.
We're getting an approx 11% ROI (return on investment) over a 25 year FIT (feed-in tariff) contract.
And on most of a bright day, free electricity.
For the rest - we pay £0.146 GBP per kWh.
Addressing a couple of comments:
1. DIY solar installations are eligible for the federal USA 30% tax credit. Around me, all of the other incentives require a contractor installation.
2. Cleaning the panels is overrated. Some of mine are easily accessible on the ground. Even when they have a pretty heavy dirt covering, it's hard to measure any improvement after they're washed. The only reason I'd wash them is because they look lousy with the dirt. Snow, on the other hand, makes for a 100% production cut.
3. No maintenance needed yet after 5 years, knock-on-wood. One of the inverters has a fan that runs pretty much whenever the sun shines. I've been expecting it to fail for a few years. Hasn't yet, knock-on-wood again.
When adding up incentives you need to read all the fine print. If you get a rebate, for example, that comes out of the cost before the federal tax credit is figured.
1. DIY solar installations are eligible for the federal USA 30% tax credit. Around me, all of the other incentives require a contractor installation.
2. Cleaning the panels is overrated. Some of mine are easily accessible on the ground. Even when they have a pretty heavy dirt covering, it's hard to measure any improvement after they're washed. The only reason I'd wash them is because they look lousy with the dirt. Snow, on the other hand, makes for a 100% production cut.
3. No maintenance needed yet after 5 years, knock-on-wood. One of the inverters has a fan that runs pretty much whenever the sun shines. I've been expecting it to fail for a few years. Hasn't yet, knock-on-wood again.
When adding up incentives you need to read all the fine print. If you get a rebate, for example, that comes out of the cost before the federal tax credit is figured.
Here in NL we are at about € 0,18453 per kWh
That is divided in: € 0,06 for the KwH, € 0,11 energy tax, and € 0,02 Value added tax
Than we pay like € 275 a year for the connection (management. maintenance, rent of the measuring device etc)
For my new house I will go electric only (we now do natural gas for heating and warm water) with Solar Panels for about 8000 Wp)
Here the energy counter runs backward when you have more solar power than you use and you can use that back when it is dark. So our grid is the battery (for the next 3-5 years that is for now) When you have soo much solar energy and you are above your normal use, you get the base electric price back (€ 0,06 and with some contracts up to € 0,11)
The taxation tends to go up on natural gas and down on electricity as our government needs to reach a environment goal in some years (and they are far behind)
So we can deduct the VAT (21%) on the solar install including labor.
So if the 8000 Wp is lets say € 12.000 I get back € 2082 back, and it is little below € 10.000
Since we have small houses right next to each other I can unfortunately not go for the cheap panel type and put lots on the roof
Top roof (flat) in east/west orientation. Panasonic HIT N295 panels. (18x)
Side roof facing South/West has neighbor house in 5 meter distance and that is 1.5 meters heigher. So it puts a triangle shape shadow over my panels during the afternoon (about 2 hours) Do not know yet what type I will use, but will fit about 11 normal size panels, or 15 smaller ones (Panasonic HIT N245 for example).
For the side roof I need shadow management so will hook it al up with SolarEdge
Expensive system, but seems only way to get decent amount of kWh from the available roofs.
That is divided in: € 0,06 for the KwH, € 0,11 energy tax, and € 0,02 Value added tax
Than we pay like € 275 a year for the connection (management. maintenance, rent of the measuring device etc)
For my new house I will go electric only (we now do natural gas for heating and warm water) with Solar Panels for about 8000 Wp)
Here the energy counter runs backward when you have more solar power than you use and you can use that back when it is dark. So our grid is the battery (for the next 3-5 years that is for now) When you have soo much solar energy and you are above your normal use, you get the base electric price back (€ 0,06 and with some contracts up to € 0,11)
The taxation tends to go up on natural gas and down on electricity as our government needs to reach a environment goal in some years (and they are far behind)
So we can deduct the VAT (21%) on the solar install including labor.
So if the 8000 Wp is lets say € 12.000 I get back € 2082 back, and it is little below € 10.000
Since we have small houses right next to each other I can unfortunately not go for the cheap panel type and put lots on the roof
Top roof (flat) in east/west orientation. Panasonic HIT N295 panels. (18x)
Side roof facing South/West has neighbor house in 5 meter distance and that is 1.5 meters heigher. So it puts a triangle shape shadow over my panels during the afternoon (about 2 hours) Do not know yet what type I will use, but will fit about 11 normal size panels, or 15 smaller ones (Panasonic HIT N245 for example).
For the side roof I need shadow management so will hook it al up with SolarEdge
Expensive system, but seems only way to get decent amount of kWh from the available roofs.
So, I am bumping this thread. I have a new home, and the West facing part of the roof is perfect for solar. I do have to see if it affects my home warranty before anything is installed.
I reached out to a company. Because I haven't lived here long enough to get one electric bill, much less the two year average they normally work with, all the homework is on them. They have my location, blueprints, etc. Local rebate is $6K plus the 30% tax break. I'll be in this house at least ten years. The panels they work with are 25 year warranty, as is the labor. I won't get excited until I see numbers. They make it seem as if I can essentially pay for it on day one (payment on panels and install rather than electricity because I'd backfeed). If I had a $100 payment on solar, or a $100 electrical bill...then assuming I paid off the panels in 10 years...would I be getting free electricity? It all seems odd. This is a very early post because I have no numbers, but that last question hangs in my mind. If I could get free power for 15 years (if I stayed here long enough), that is $18K profit before panels need replacement at my $100/mo guess. Maybe the trick is the loan is the length of the panel life.
I'm curious what you would think if you were buying an existing home with panels (under warranty). I'll share numbers when I get them. I'll also talk to a few people near me who have been around a couple of years and see if they don't mind telling me what their electric runs (in case they play with the estimate to make solar look better).
I reached out to a company. Because I haven't lived here long enough to get one electric bill, much less the two year average they normally work with, all the homework is on them. They have my location, blueprints, etc. Local rebate is $6K plus the 30% tax break. I'll be in this house at least ten years. The panels they work with are 25 year warranty, as is the labor. I won't get excited until I see numbers. They make it seem as if I can essentially pay for it on day one (payment on panels and install rather than electricity because I'd backfeed). If I had a $100 payment on solar, or a $100 electrical bill...then assuming I paid off the panels in 10 years...would I be getting free electricity? It all seems odd. This is a very early post because I have no numbers, but that last question hangs in my mind. If I could get free power for 15 years (if I stayed here long enough), that is $18K profit before panels need replacement at my $100/mo guess. Maybe the trick is the loan is the length of the panel life.
I'm curious what you would think if you were buying an existing home with panels (under warranty). I'll share numbers when I get them. I'll also talk to a few people near me who have been around a couple of years and see if they don't mind telling me what their electric runs (in case they play with the estimate to make solar look better).
SouthernYankee
IPCT Contributor
As technology of solar panels improves overtime. More power from a smaller profile. So a large amount of old solar panels, may cause a decrease in the homes value.
tangent
IPCT Contributor
- May 12, 2016
- 4,629
- 3,982
Meh, solar panels themselves simply depreciate over time. I doubt anyone puts that much of a premium on their roof real estate.
If it works, I don't think most home buyers will pay much attention to the difference. If electricity were $1/kw people might think about things differently.