Advice on new home surveillance system

[wsume99]

I'll start by saying that I read the cliff notes. Great docucemt and appreciate the time it took to create.

I've been reading as much as I can about home surveillance and there is definitely a lot more I need to learn but I think I've read enough to at least ask some halfway decent questions. My objective is to monitor the outside of my home for any unwanted activity. The primary focus is to be able to get good enough image quality to identify anyone attempting to enter the home. Not as concerned with plate recognition. I plan to focus on the entry points/doors. That would be the following:
1) front porch/door
2) two single car garage doors
3) door at rear of garage
4) door from mudroom to back deck
5) door from kitchen to back deck
6) door from basement to back patio
7) considering an indoor camera in the garage to monitor the door into the house

I am probably looking at 6 cameras to do everything above. I am pretty certain I can cover both doors to the back deck with a single camera. I'll talk about budget at the end.

I plan to use poe ip cameras. I already have ubiquiti gear for my home network (router and switch) so I can power all the cameras without issue and segregate them on their own vlan.

The main things I need help with are camera selection and NVR advice. I'll start with NVR. I have a Linux server already that runs 24/7 which I'd like to use. From what I've read Blue Iris is the most commonly suggested but I don't really want to run a VM to host BI. Ito looks like a docker version of BI has been created but it's still not perfect. That leaves ZoneMinder and BlueCherry as Linux alternatives. I could easily throw together a windows machine to run BI if I need to but I think I'd like to try Linux first. Open to suggestions here. Also want to make sure I pick a camera that would integrate well with any of those NVR options. I guess after reading more I'm realizing that BI may be inevitable unless someone says otherwise.

Camera selection is really what I need the most help with. I've read a ton about this over the past few days. Lots of guides, forum posts (here and elsewhere), Reddit posts, and purchaser reviews. I've also read the cliff notes as I said earlier. My wife is a photographer who only uses natural light so I understand image sensor qualities needed for low light image capture. The fundamentals of what is presented in the IPCamTalk notes agrees with what I know to be true about low light photography. I am leaning towards 2MP Dahua starlight turret cam but am open to alternative suggestions. I don't mind tinkering but would like to have a good community to lean on for help. There is what appears to be a pretty good support community here for Dahua. According to the cliff notes the ZE starlight turret is good for facial recognition up to 13 feet at it's widest angle focal length. I can definitely install the camera within 13 feet of any entry point and I think 2.7mm will give me the FOV I need for the places I want to monitor so I shouldn't be concerned about the 2MP resolution? Just confirming that I've understood the cliff notes as I should.

Last thing is budget. I'm not concerned with the whole system budget at this moment because I plan to build my system incrementally. I already have the networking equipment so I plan to buy one camera first and let it record to an internal SD card and view feeds via chrome. Then work on alarms and notifications. Then I'll work at setting up a VPN so I can view feeds remotely. Then I'll begin tinkering with NVR software. Once the software is running as I like then I'll add the other cameras. This could realistically take me 6-12 months or even longer. So I'm really only concerned with the price of my first camera at this point. I'd like to stay in the $150ish price range. I could bump it to $200 if there was a compelling reason. I'm more concerned with getting a system that is stable and does what I need than saving a few bucks. So if I need to spend more then I will but only after I've convinced myself it's really necessary. That means total camera budget would be $800-$1200 for 6 cameras. Add $250 ish for a simple windows box w/ BI if required. I'd say the top line would be maybe $1500 total.

Please tell me if I'm way off target here.

 

[mat200]

I'll start by saying that I read the cliff notes. Great docucemt and appreciate the time it took to create.

.. I am probably looking at 6 cameras to do everything above. I am pretty certain I can cover both doors to the back deck with a single camera. I'll talk about budget at the end.

... I'd like to stay in the $150ish price range. I could bump it to $200 if there was a compelling reason. I'm more concerned with getting a system that is stable and does what I need than saving a few bucks. So if I need to spend more then I will but only after I've convinced myself it's really necessary. That means total camera budget would be $800-$1200 for 6 cameras. Add $250 ish for a simple windows box w/ BI if required. I'd say the top line would be maybe $1500 total.

Please tell me if I'm way off target here.

Welcome @wsume99

You're off to a good start, there has been a few new cameras out since we've made the cliff notes - so do go to the search box and search for "review" in the titles and see what other cameras you may want to consider.

I would recommend a varifocal 2MP Dahua OEM starlight model as a good one to start with to get the hang of this. The IPC-HDW22xx turret is probably a good one to start with, though it does not have audio recording. ( no microphone )

 

[00Buck]

Build the BI box and grab a starlight varifocal to test with and you will be off to a good start.

 

[Q™]

I'll start by saying that I read the cliff notes.

Seriously NICE start @wsume99

I would also encourage you to do what @00Buck suggested: purchase a $300.00-$400.00 set-it-and-forget-it Win10 box and run Blue Iris. If you do, you will thank your lucky stars that you found the Blue Iris vms software; the Blue Iris iOS/Android app alone will thrill you. Use Dahua Starlight varifocal cameras (also as @00Buck suggested...their not much more expensive than fixed length cams) so you don't have to work so hard to guess the correct lens size -- and -- varifocal will allow you to re-purpose/move your cameras without lens size issues.

You don't what you got till it's gone if you never had it @wsume99: run Blue Iris.

And welcome to the addiction brother!

Edit: I would not recommend running BI in a virtual machine...purchase a i5-i7 Win10 machine instead.

 

[wsume99]

You don't what you got till it's gone if you never had it @wsume99: run Blue Iris.

And welcome to the addiction brother!

Edit: I would not recommend running BI in a virtual machine...purchase a i5-i7 Win10 machine instead.

I pretty much figured this would be the recommendation. I'm researching BI ...

I'm definitely going with varifocal for the first camera and probably all of them. I've seen some reviews commenting that the varifocal outperforms fixed because the optics are slightly better and the images posted back up those claims.

I plan to install my first camera on the front porch which is fully covered. Overall dimensions are 12 ft wide by 8 ft deep with a 9.5 ft ceiling. It would be about 10ft from the door to the front face of the camera based on where I think I'll need to install it. There is a streetlight in the corner of my front yard about 40 feet (maybe even less) from my front door so my porch is fairly well lit at night. After reading several reviews here is what I'm thinking for a camera for this location.

1) 2231RP-ZS: Lower cost 2MP starlight turret but since this is the front door I'd prefer to have audio.
2) 5231R-ZE vs 5831R-ZE: Read the reviews of both these cameras. Seems like a lot of other members have this same struggle. There is some really good info out there. Clearly the 5831 outperforms the 5231 in the day but the 5231 will do better in low light at night. So it all comes down to how much light I have on my front porch at night. I get a decent amount of light on my front porch from the nearby streetlight. Based on some of the user images I've seen posted I think it will be enough light to allow the 5831 to perform well enough that I won't regret not getting the 2231. Perhaps I'll change my mind after I get a price from Andy.

 

[Q™]

You’re giving this a lot of thought @wsume99...which bodes well for your outcome. Maybe get one of each and interchange them...you’ll always be able to use one or the other at one location or another.

 

[crw030]

Clearly the 5831 outperforms the 5231 in the day but the 5231 will do better in low light at night.

You are being smart not rushing into things and doing your research!

My personal experience is only with a 5MP (with a streetlight 100 feet away) compared to a 2MP starlight mini-dome (which sometimes has two porch lights at slightly over 100 feet away as light sources). I selected the 5MP, even though it went against most recommendations here, because I had lived there for a long time and always remembered how incredibly well lit the street and front yard were by that street light. But even that hasn't been enough to compensate for the minuscule amount of light each pixel will get on a high resolution camera.

Long & short of it, when I revisit that property I will swap the 5MP out for a fixed 2MP Starlight, because the 5MP does not produce useful images at night. I may also add a PTZ (also 2MP) because when something IS going down I often see it (mostly because I cant help myself and monitor the cameras 16 hours a day) and could focus in on things that might be happening in the front yard or just "off camera".

I could also fix this problem by adding more light, something I would be willing to do at my primary residence, but since I'm just monitoring an empty property I don't see the point of lighting it up 14hx365 just to achieve a better picture, plus since I'm streaming over a limited bandwidth connection the 5MP was a bad call because I have to limit FPS to 2 just avoid going over the data cap.

Speaking just from personal experience unless you naturally have INTENSE DIRECT LIGHTING, I would trade 4-2MP starlights for an 8MP in a heartbeat.

@mat200 is guiding you towards a varifocal which will be a great learning camera until you get a better feel for your requirements at each mounting point. It will help you narrow down whether you need a 3mm/6mm/8mm (not MP!) lens at each install location. Check out the threads on temporary mounting this varifocal to work out the angles/height/placement and lens needed, then just order the exact camera you need to install.

@Q is also wise, you will probably not regret having some different resolution cameras to compare and try out in different locations! But I will say I have no regrets on EVERY 2MP starlight I have purchased so far because they see really well in low light situations.

 

[SouthernYankee]

Welcome to the forum.

You have learned a lot. My normal advice is to ...
Read,study,plan before spending money. plan plan plan.

If you want to identify the people. keep the cameras low. Front door cameras at 5-7 ft up. Outdoor garage cameras no higher than the top of the door.
With the var focus camera mount it on a 2x4 in a 5 gallon bucket of rocks and test the views before install the camera. Test with a bad guy view. Get a friend with a hoodie, base ball cap and sun glasses can they be identified with the camera. If you park in the driveway at night test that you can identify the door checkers.

I use 2mp starlight cameras with no problems and are easy to identify at night. They work ok in the daylight. I tried an 8mp for night use and it need a lot of light to be useful. the 8MP sits in a box at the moment. My problems are at night.

 

[wsume99]

@crw030, @SouthernYankee - I know that I will need the 2MP starlight on the backside of my house so I'm going to start with that camera. If I go with an 8MP there is a chance it might not work in my lighting conditions at night as it sounds both of you have experienced. If that happens then I'd basically have a daytime only camera which I suppose isn't the worst thing that could happen but not exactly how I'd want to start out. The 2MP definitely has lower quality during the day but seeing how this is on my porch I doubt I'll be trying to see things off in the distance where the additional resolution of the 8MP might help. I sent a message to Andy to get pricing on my first order.

On the NVR front I searched my excess PC part stockpile and I found a spare i3-7320 and a brand new gigabyte MB I got for free the last time I bought a CPU at MicroCenter. I also found an old 80GB Intel SDD and a surplus green WD 2TB HDD (I know it may not last long but I don't care) along with a mITX case and PSU. All I need is some RAM and I'm in business. I even had a spare win8 key! I realize i5/i7's are recommended but I checked out the BI usage data on the wiki and I see entries from mobile i3 processors working just fine . So I think this hardware would be ok to get me started especially with only one camera and would probably be fine for my planned system of 6ish cameras. I can always get a used i5/i7 off ebay if I ever ran into a problem with CPU horsepower.

 

[aristobrat]

Based on some of the user images I've seen posted I think it will be enough light to allow the 5831 to perform well enough that I won't regret not getting the 2231.

Remember that it’s pretty easy to get good-looking static images off of most cameras at night.. the trick is getting video that doesn’t blur in low-light (which can be challenging even for some Starlights in some situations).

I’m testing out an IPC-HFW1831C-PIR, which is 8MP and appears to use the same sensor as the 5831 (1/2.5”). Right now I’ve got it on my front porch, temporarily replacing the usual 2MP Starlight mini-dome PTZ (SD1A203T-GN) that runs there.

Here’s a short video that has a clip from each camera of different people walking across the porch. Keep in mind, the 2MP Starlight is running with IR turned off... with the camera pointing directly at the side of the house, IR bounces back, and because the 2MP Starlight is a mini-dome, the bounced-back IR reflects back into the dome and goofs the video up up. The 8MP camera has IR turned on... it also has the PIR Alarm “flashing light” going off too (as it detected someone on the porch). Neither cameras are great with how I have my porch setup, but I think the 2MP Starlight (w/o IR) does better than the 8MP (with IR). I think that if I add some external IR in a manner that doesn’t reflect back, the Starlight would be significantly better here.

 

[crw030]

I realize i5/i7's are recommended

I think you will find that camera security turns into an addiction for most, so the recommendations to buy an i5 or i7 (versus an i3) are just to intended accommodate that future growth (be more forward looking, save you money in the long haul).

Your i3 is pretty modern (compared to I have run BI on an old laptop and and old i7-2600k setup I had mostly laying around), so you should be fine base on the metrics until you get at least a handful of cameras setup and working. I think you are on a solid path, you are reusing some old equipment to get your feet wet, and you have the right attitude about what to do if you need more horsepower someday in the future. However, with 1 or 2 cameras you are smart to at least try Blue Iris before investing more heavily in a PC, and try a few cameras out limiting your upfront costs.

You are on the right path, come back and keep us updated on the status of your project.

 

[00Buck]

If you start with the varifocal you can make a test pole and try it at various locations and adjust the field of view so you will know what other cameras you may want/need.

 

[crw030]

but I think the 2MP Starlight (w/o IR) does better than the 8MP (with IR).

Since the 8MP you said had the IR turned ON I would say even with that extra help it's not nearly as good as the 2MP. You are also right about the motion blur in very low light, I'm trying to solve that with extra lighting that doesn't wash out the frame and draw bugs like the onboard "Smart IR" does, but very evident in your video with the parked car looking crystal and the pixelation in the moving areas. It's kind of funny your "friend?" flipping off the camera/flashing PIR light. I guess the 2MP must be a 3.6mm or 4mm lense (i.e. pretty wide angle)?

 

[wsume99]

Your i3 is pretty modern (compared to I have run BI on an old laptop and and old i7-2600k setup I had mostly laying around)

Yeah, the passmark scores for my i3 vs your i7 (assuming stock frequencies) are not too far off really.

Single: 2395 (i3) vs 1920 (i7)
Multicore: 6594 (i3) vs 8496 (i7)

This makes complete sense, the newer i3 has more efficient cores so its 25% better in single core tests. The older i7 has more cores so it does 28% better in multi-core tests.I don't know how benchmarks will translate to BI performance but I think I'm fine for the foreseeable future.

If you start with the varifocal you can make a test pole and try it at various locations and adjust the field of view so you will know what other cameras you may want/need.

That was part of my plan from the very beginning. I plan to use a long ethernet cable and a 2x4 to test camera positions before I drill into the ceiling to locate the camera. I ran some CAT6 cable to the porch ceiling and a few other hard to reach areas as the house was built (over 2 years ago). In fact, I ran over 2k feet of CAT6 cable around the house so the previous comments about things becoming an addiction are very relevant to me. My motto ... If I'm going to do something its going to be done as good as I can reasonably afford to.

 

[00Buck]

Also @Dasstrum has some great BI tutorials you should check out.

 

[aristobrat]

It's kind of funny your "friend?" flipping off the camera/flashing PIR light. I guess the 2MP must be a 3.6mm or 4mm lense (i.e. pretty wide angle)?

Yeah, that's my housemate... I forgot to tell him that there's a diff cam that will flash a light at night now. Whoops. The 2MP Starlight is varifocal (2.7-8.1mm) and was zoomed in to about 4mm or 5mm. The 8MP is fixed-lens 2.8mm.

 

[crw030]

I don't know how benchmarks will translate to BI performance but I think I'm fine for the foreseeable future.

I think you are right, nice thing is that if you quickly outgrow the i3, it doesn't sound like you wasted any money on it. A lot of the guidance around here towards i5/i7 is because "you can't have too much power", especially as you grow your system, and if you have to buy something you might as well pickup a refurb say for $200-$400 that has a decent processor in it with more capacity rather than save $50 and get an i3.

However, every situation is different, and in your case you have most the parts, hopefully you have someplace you can pick up compatible memory for not much $. Based on my 6 camera setup using only 3.3GB out of 16GB, hopefully you can get started with a single stick of 8GB. Also maybe an expert here can advise if Win8 will work with Blue Iris as a Service, but when I ran it as an UI application it would crash every 6-10 months, so that might be a future change you will want to make (Windows 10 BI can run as a service for sure). Nice thing is these are all incremental changes you can make (even the computer upgrade you can export all your working settings to the new PC).

The problem I ran into with my 2600k was the motherboard I had didn't support onboard graphics, so after both some necessary and unnecessary purchase, by the time I got it working I had ended up spending more than I might have with a refurb and I still have a 7-year old CPU:

1. Used motherboard with onboard video support $60 + shipping
2. new case (I have regrets about this later, I didn't ACTUALLY need one, but had decided I wanted a robust case.)
3. 3 x 4TB surveillance drives (would have needed at least one of these anyway, probably not 3 tho)
4. 3 drives wouldn't fit in my "new" case so I had to order a 2x5.25 to 3x3.5 adapter, which was special order and cost $40. If I had kept my old case it holds 7 hard drives naturally, it just seemed like overkill at the time, but would have saved me like $140.
5. new cooler, because my old CPU cooler was an AIO liquid cooler and already at least 7 years old. They don't have an infinite life span, so replaced with a basic fan ($15)

 

[wsume99]

Referencing the Cliff Notes ... do most people who use BI or another NVR system also install a SD card in the camera for backup in case of a NVR outage? In this mode does the card only get written to if the NVR is not available? I'm trying to decide if I need to purchase a SD card for my camera.

 

[crw030]

I don't have SD cards in any of mine, my experience is that BI runs for months without problems but I did put POE switch and BI machine on UPS. I think SD cards is probably overkill, since the odds of the the video recording device going down should be pretty low (if done properly on a dedicated machine), and the odds of a crime happening are pretty low (and the odds of both at the same time very remote). Hopefully, you will get a few more opinions over the next day or so.

 

[SouthernYankee]

Crw030.

Let me kick in the front door and steal the BI PC.

I have three levels of continuous recording,
1)the SD card
2) BI local hard disk
3) remote hidden NAS.

Yes I am paranoid. But if it can F up it will when you need it the most !